225 réponses à ce sujet

[JPN17]

The Angry One wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Changed from what to what exactly? All we are given is "changed me, opened up new possibilities". New possibilities being presented as the three choices at the end, no?

How are we supposed to understand "changed me" without any reference to what exactly was changed, and what it actually was?

Yeap, "changed" is awfully vague.
Especially since, with the choices given and the dialog, we know his attitude has not changed.
It still thinks synthetics will wipe out all organic life, it just now thinks there may be other solutions to this "problem".

It really doesn't make any sense at all. It's not like he didn't know these options existed. What with Saren in ME1 and TIM in ME3, the reapers (and I would imagine by extension the god kid) knew about the ideas of control and synthesis. And then the Citadel had the control stations (for lack of a better term) already built in before the crucible even docked. So what the hell were those things used for before? Did the reapers or whoever built the Citadel build those just for kicks? They have to have some function, but now all of the sudded they can be used to control the reapers or dna rape everything in the galaxy? How does that even happen?

[ahandsomeshark]

I'm still trying to figure out HOW they moved it.

[Ticonderoga117]

The Angry One wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Hey, now we have a way to salvage
this artistic ending in a way that's interesting and can make way more
sense. Now just make the Super Weapon just kill the reapers and NOTHING
ELSE and we'll be fine.

Barring multiple endings, but one thing at a time.

Well, you could keep control. Make it the ultra renegade choice, and have a bit of a philosophical debate over it, such as.

Catalyst: "You wish to control the Reapers? Do you think you can succeed where I failed? You're taking an enormous risk. Be ready for the fact that one day you may be in my position."

Or something like that.

Mmmm, fair enough. Just ditch synthesis and add in various level of how well things turned out and voila!

[ahandsomeshark]

I kind of feel like KotorEffect deserves his own spin-off.

one fan, among an army of hostiles, continued to fight an overwhelming opposition, in the name of bioware and speculation.

His name is KotorEffect, and he will not waver, he will not bend, he will not break.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 03 mai 2012 - 08:07 .

[Laurencio]

The Angry One wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Changed from what to what exactly? All we are given is "changed me, opened up new possibilities". New possibilities being presented as the three choices at the end, no?

How are we supposed to understand "changed me" without any reference to what exactly was changed, and what it actually was?

Yeap, "changed" is awfully vague.
Especially since, with the choices given and the dialog, we know his attitude has not changed.
It still thinks synthetics will wipe out all organic life, it just now thinks there may be other solutions to this "problem".

Another problem with the Crucible.

In order for it to "change" the catalyst, the designers behind it would somehow have to know about the catalyst and have at least a rudementary knowledge of the inner workings of whatever the catalyst is. Considering the Catalyst was a vital component, and in fact nothing works without it, clearly they knew more about it than we're told.

So they would have to understand the technology behind it, at least the basics of the catalyst, whatever it is. Doesn't that also mean that they would have to know that the Citadel contained the catalyst? Which basically mean they knew how to stop the reapers from the get go. If that's not the case the Catalyst was simply presented with technological options it didn't understand or knew before, which I can see as a possiblity. However, how did a race/species/whatever capeable of designing the basic technological framework of the crucible not defeat the reapers in that case?

In that scenario they designed technology that apparently surpassed that of the Catalyst, which could only design the reapers within the scope of its now made apparent limited knowledge. Someone capeable of technological advancement beyond the understanding of the Catalyst and the reapers shouldn't have been defeated by them, should they?

[JPN17]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

The questions raised in this thread have no answers in game. The only "answers" to these questions are things people like you invent.

Actually a lot of them are able to be answered. A lot can be speculation, but who do you know that speculates? The Angry One for example hates the game and has already revealed that he wont like the EC, so what is he going to do about it? Nothing. He's going to complain about it for sure, in fact he going to spend more time complaining about it than he did playing the entire series, but he's not going to do anything constructive about it.

If I asked "Why did the Catalyst give you these options" how much replies do you think would be "space magic" and "lots of speculation!" and how much replies would be "Actually the Catalyst states the Crucible changed him"? I know how I would reply to that question, how would you?

But we don't know how the crucible changed the catalyst or even why so the fact that the crucible changed him is meaningless. That line can be comepletely cut out entirely and it won't change a thing. If there was a reason or meaning to the catalyst changing, which would require the catalyst being introduced earlier in the storyline, then there would be some meaning to the changes the catalyst undergoes and that would be significant. But seeing as we didn't know anything about the god kid before we met him this change is irrelevant. So saying the reason the catalyst gave you these options is result of being changed by the crucible is pointless.

[alsonamedbort]

The Angry One wrote...

If you have to make it personal, you have no argument. Disagree with me if you like, the moment you start insulting and making personal jabs, you won't be taken seriously.

I'm gonna have to leave this here (a response you wrote to a previous post)

The Angry One wrote...

.................................................................................................................................
what?

Did you think? Did you really? Oh my god. YOU THINK THE INHABITANTS CLOSED THE CITADEL, NOT THE REAPERS?

www.youtube.com/watch

[Lethys1]

The real plot hole is why the Milky Way Galaxy's inhabitants would choose to build the Crucible such that it only operates with the power of the Citadel, despite the fact that every cycle starts with Reapers controlling it to start with.

The Reapers are a bit too conveniently weak or dumb in certain specific ways to truly convince me that even the Protheans would have difficulty defeating them.

[The Angry One]

alsonamedbort wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If you have to make it personal, you have no argument. Disagree with me if you like, the moment you start insulting and making personal jabs, you won't be taken seriously.

I'm gonna have to leave this here (a response you wrote to a previous post)

The Angry One wrote...

.................................................................................................................................
what?

Did you think? Did you really? Oh my god. YOU THINK THE INHABITANTS CLOSED THE CITADEL, NOT THE REAPERS?

www.youtube.com/watch

How was that personal? That was me expressing extreme amusement at the fact that he argued that the Reapers somehow weren't in control of the Citadel at the end, that the people inside closed it and they couldn't open it.

I never said that one cannot mock an argument, I said I draw the line at making it personal.

"Your argument sucks and here's why." <--- mocking the argument.

"Why are you here? Go somewhere else. You're dumb! " <---- is personal.

This has been today's lesson in Internet Debating 101. Good day.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 mai 2012 - 08:18 .

[eddieoctane]

The only explanation is bad writing. It is the same reason why the ending sucked oh so bad. Someone over at BioWare fancies himself an artist, and blew p the entire game in some sort of bizarre interpretation of what art actually is.

[alsonamedbort]

The Angry One wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If you have to make it personal, you have no argument. Disagree with me if you like, the moment you start insulting and making personal jabs, you won't be taken seriously.

I'm gonna have to leave this here (a response you wrote to a previous post)

The Angry One wrote...

.................................................................................................................................
what?

Did you think? Did you really? Oh my god. YOU THINK THE INHABITANTS CLOSED THE CITADEL, NOT THE REAPERS?

www.youtube.com/watch

How was that personal? That was me expressing extreme amusement at the fact that he argued that the Reapers somehow weren't in control of the Citadel at the end, that the people inside closed it and they couldn't open it.

I never said that one cannot mock an argument, I said I draw the line at making it personal.

"Your argument sucks and here's why." <--- mocking the argument.

"Why are you here? Go somewhere else. You're dumb! " <---- is personal.

This has been today's lesson in Internet Debating 101. Good day.

Your snide sarcasm aside, you did nothing but show a link to a snide and sarcastic response, adding nothing to the discussion except saying the OP is stupid without explaining why.  In short, you were saying "you're dumb for feeling that way," without really adding anything at all.  By your own logic, that is personal.

You may think that you're posts are mocking the argument, but when they so clearly blur the lines between mocking the argument and the person, it is reasonable for people to assume that your argument is personal.

This has been today's lesson in civility and how to interact with people in a social setting.  Good day to you as well.

[bonerfest]

It's kind of obvious, really. ME3 was being rushed towards the end pretty blatantly. They got to the point in writing the game where you realize the citadel is the catalyst. But the final battle HAS to be on Earth.

"Lets just say the citadel is now on Earth, somehow moved there by the reapers in a matter of days. Let's be completely vague as to how that happened because we don't have time to write another mission or do another cutscene." Why did the reapers move it? "Oh because The Illusive Man tattled on the Alliance races about the crucible." But the Citadel is the Catalyst, and the Catalyst controls the reapers. Why didn't the Catalyst tell them to move the citadel at the beginning? "Not enough SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE in that scenario. Also we need Shepard to visit the Citadel to advance the plot."

There are hundreds of other plot holes related to this. For example, after TIM tells the reapers that the Crucible has been built and the Alliance knows the Citadel is the Catalyst, the reapers move the citadel to earth. But then they built a transporter beam that goes DIRECTLY TO THE CONTROLS TO OPEN THE ARMS AND ACTIVATE THE CRUCIBLE. If that beam did not exist, Shepard would have had no way to open the Citadel Arms, and game over. You can tell by all of the random, "Whoops, we already did the work and don't have time to go back, so it stays!" mistakes that this game was rushed. And it's a shame because they ruined what could have been the greatest sci-fi trilogy since Star Wars Original Trilogy.

[The Angry One]

alsonamedbort wrote...

Your snide sarcasm aside, you did nothing but show a link to a snide and sarcastic response, adding nothing to the discussion except saying the OP is stupid without explaining why.  In short, you were saying "you're dumb for feeling that way," without really adding anything at all.  By your own logic, that is personal.

Considering..

- I don't think the OP is stupid.
- The OP was asking a question, not making a stance.
- I explain everything I say with a decent amount of detail.

What are you going on about? If you're going to talk to me do me a favour and don't make up random stuff then pretend it applies to me.

You may think that you're posts are mocking the argument, but when they so clearly blur the lines between mocking the argument and the person, it is reasonable for people to assume that your argument is personal.

I express amusement at someone making an argument that has nothing to do with what actually happened, and that's personal?

This has been today's lesson in civility and how to interact with people in a social setting.  Good day to you as well.

You're confusing civility with political correctness. If you say something stupid, I will call you on it. This is not saying that you are in fact stupid, this is saying that what you just said is.

[survivor_686]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You know, THAT, if well written could've been an interesting twist.
The Catalyst is the master network hub of the Reapers - or something. But it's a tortured being. It no longer has control of the Reapers, whatever their original purpose was has been superceeded and now he can only stand by and watch.
When the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel he finally gained some semblance of control, and has been actively working against the Reapers ever since. With the Crucible (a failsafe designed by it's creators to prevent exactly this) is attached, it can reach out to you and present new options.

Hey, now we have a way to salvage this artistic ending in a way that's interesting and can make way more sense. Now just make the Super Weapon just kill the reapers and NOTHING ELSE and we'll be fine.

Barring multiple endings, but one thing at a time.

Holy shisno, Angry One, you just salvaged a character, a sequence and a story at the same time. Bioware should hire you.

Albeit a far more better alternative would be to simple junk their entire Starchild concept, but hey its progress.

[survivor_686]

Lethys1 wrote...

The real plot hole is why the Milky Way Galaxy's inhabitants would choose to build the Crucible such that it only operates with the power of the Citadel, despite the fact that every cycle starts with Reapers controlling it to start with.

The Reapers are a bit too conveniently weak or dumb in certain specific ways to truly convince me that even the Protheans would have difficulty defeating them.

The Citadel is responsible for coordinating all the mass relays. Think of it a the CPU of the Mass Relay network. At one point the inahbitants decided to use the citadel to coordinate all the relays into spreading the effects of the Crucible.

[The Angry One]

Hah well I'm glad some people like my concept for the Catalyst, it was really inspired by the idea that it seems like it's sabotaging it's own efforts.

[ArchDuck]

Jenonax wrote...

Its all just so lazy and so poorly written.

We have a winner!!!

[alsonamedbort]

The Angry One wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

Your snide sarcasm aside, you did nothing but show a link to a snide and sarcastic response, adding nothing to the discussion except saying the OP is stupid without explaining why.  In short, you were saying "you're dumb for feeling that way," without really adding anything at all.  By your own logic, that is personal.

Considering..

- I don't think the OP is stupid.
- The OP was asking a question, not making a stance.
- I explain everything I say with a decent amount of detail.

What are you going on about? If you're going to talk to me do me a favour and don't make up random stuff then pretend it applies to me.

You may think that you're posts are mocking the argument, but when they so clearly blur the lines between mocking the argument and the person, it is reasonable for people to assume that your argument is personal.

I express amusement at someone making an argument that has nothing to do with what actually happened, and that's personal?

This has been today's lesson in civility and how to interact with people in a social setting.  Good day to you as well.

You're confusing civility with political correctness. If you say something stupid, I will call you on it. This is not saying that you are in fact stupid, this is saying that what you just said is.

I believe that you don't mean your post personally, so I'll lay off.  But when your schtick is being snide and sarcastic (which based off of your post history it appears to be), sometimes it's hard to distinguish between mocking the post and mocking the person.  So I just think it's a little disingenuous to totally discredit someone by pointing out they made a personal attack when a lot of times yours could be interpreted that way as well.

[Cypher_CS]

Prosarian wrote...

Why didn't the Reapers just claim the citadel at the start of the game?

Just made this thread in the hope that someone might have found something in the game to explain that. It's really been bugging me cos it makes the Reapers seem like idiots and it makes the rest of the plot feel ridiculous.

Have you people even played ME1?!?!?!?

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Why would they? There was no real reason to take it over until it became a threat.

I'm sure somewhere along the lines they were going to purge it but why when they were doing so many other things.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

This is my answer for you:

It's part of warfare. It's actually pretty smart.

In their original plans Sovereign was suppose to open the citadel have the relays activate and all the reapers come out of the citadel crushing the governments and learning all information in one felt swoop.

Shepard ruined that so they had to go with plan B. Since they can obviously travel the galaxy much much faster than any known species, they just attack the strongest planets first. Batarian, Earth, anyone who might've taken the fight seriously enough to be a hindrance. Then you take out the bulk of the forces. Turian being most powerful (because krogan was weakened by genophage) Asari last because they would be the most pensive to act. Salarian after those two wouldn't put up much resistance they're not army heavy they're infiltration and covert ops.

At this point all that's left is to round everyone up at the citadel they're trapped once it's the only haven. No where to go nothing to do no way to control the keepers from opening the citadel arms (or maybe harbinger had remote control who knows) All they can do is sit there and wait while their either starve/die, are destroyed trying to escape or fight them off, or just plain sit there and indoctrinate the entire citadel destroying it from within. Then they just have to activate the relay and wait for the next cycle.

But that's just opinion i'm not bioware but i hope it's a good answer none the less.

[AlexXIV]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Why would they? There was no real reason to take it over until it became a threat.

I'm sure somewhere along the lines they were going to purge it but why when they were doing so many other things.

They can use it to shut down relays. Stop the resistance from organizing. Remember what Shepard was doing? Collecting allies, building a fleet, building the crucible? Shep used the Relays for that. No relays, no resistance. That's why they did it all the billion years before. Just not this time, because they wanted to give Shepard a chance. I mean it would be a short ME3 if they took the Citadel first. Even a pro ender has to see that.

[The Protheans]

I think they left it be at the start because...... Shepard needed to get around.

In all honesty I think they should of placed all the fleets that you gathered at the Citadel.
Everyone takes up defensive positions at the Citadel.

This erases the terrible "Cerberus takeover" Mission
And then the Reapers don't take the citadel, you and all the fleets go to earth and retake it and most of the Reapers flee off somewhere after getting a tip from TIM.

Perhaps you don't know the crucible interacts with the Citadel yet because you did not go to TIM base, instead you go to Vatican city and end up killing the pope for funding Cerberus and Kai Leng too.

Then TIM appears in holograph form and reveals that he informed the Reapers about the Crucible and how it works with the Citadel.

And then you take the Citadel back and maybe attack TIM's base after or maybe it is beside or inside the citadel.

[JPN17]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Why would they? There was no real reason to take it over until it became a threat.

I'm sure somewhere along the lines they were going to purge it but why when they were doing so many other things.

Because it controls the relay network. In war what's better if you're in position to make the choice, isolating the enemy and leaving them scattered and uncoordinated, or letting them move freely gathering strength, resources and plan attacks. Of course you would choose the first option if you had the means to do so. But in the end it doesn't matter anyway because the reapers turn into morons and never disable the relay network.

[AlexXIV]

The Protheans wrote...

I think they left it be at the start because...... Shepard needed to get around.

In all honesty I think they should of placed all the fleets that you gathered at the Citadel.
Everyone takes up defensive positions at the Citadel.

This erases the terrible "Cerberus takeover" Mission
And then the Reapers don't take the citadel, you and all the fleets go to earth and retake it and most of the Reapers flee off somewhere after getting a tip from TIM.

Perhaps you don't know the crucible interacts with the Citadel yet because you did not go to TIM base, instead you go to Vatican city and end up killing the pope for funding Cerberus and Kai Leng too.

Then TIM appears in holograph form and reveals that he informed the Reapers about the Crucible and how it works with the Citadel.

And then you take the Citadel back and maybe attack TIM's base after or maybe it is beside or inside the citadel.

We didn't defend the Citadel because that would be stupid. It would be stupid because the message would be, the Citadel is important we need to defend it. Which would lead to the question why the Reapers didn't take it first, which would be like Bioware calling themselves stupid. So basically the Citadel was IGNORED BY EVERYONE for the first part of the game.