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[humes spork]

Okay, let's assume the Reapers captured and took the Citadel as their first step in their invasion.

They have the Citadel and its 13.2 million inhabitants. And, depending how deeply the protheans' ****ery went, limited ability to lock down the relays if at all when the organized races of the galaxy already had QEC's and Reaper IFF's.

Now they have no ground forces, haven't so much as put a dent in the organic civilizations' capability to wage war, and just did all of Shepard's work in ME3 for her, having spurred every civilized race in the galaxy to unify and transition to a war economy in a matter of hours.

Congratulations, Santa Anna.

[sp0ck 06]

Why didn't the Empire bring a couple hundred Star Destroyers to Yavin in Star Wars?

Its not a plot hole. They didn't attack it because then there would be no Citadel to hang out on.

[The Angry One]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Why didn't the Empire bring a couple hundred Star Destroyers to Yavin in Star Wars?

Because they had a giant pokeball that could blow up planets, and no amount of interstellar cheese wedges would've prevented Luke from cheating and winning the way he did, the damn exploiter.

Its not a plot hole. They didn't attack it because then there would be no Citadel to hang out on.

That's not a storyline justification. It is a plot hole.

[The Angry One]

humes spork wrote...

Okay, let's assume the Reapers captured and took the Citadel as their first step in their invasion.

They have the Citadel and its 13.2 million inhabitants. And, depending how deeply the protheans' ****ery went, limited ability to lock down the relays if at all when the organized races of the galaxy already had QEC's and Reaper IFF's.

Now they have no ground forces, haven't so much as put a dent in the organic civilizations' capability to wage war, and just did all of Shepard's work in ME3 for her, having spurred every civilized race in the galaxy to unify and transition to a war economy in a matter of hours.

Congratulations, Santa Anna.

They would have

- Decapitated Council leadership
- Gained their own property back
- Have control over the relay network
- Have their Reaper factory.

Don't make silly claims about the population of the Citadel, the population of the Citadel did not prevent them from controlling, closing, moving the Citadel or using it as a processing center.

Moroever.. 13.2 million people. Yeah. 11 BILLION people on Earth are so much easier to control, right? 

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[AlexXIV]

humes spork wrote...

Okay, let's assume the Reapers captured and took the Citadel as their first step in their invasion.

They have the Citadel and its 13.2 million inhabitants. And, depending how deeply the protheans' ****ery went, limited ability to lock down the relays if at all when the organized races of the galaxy already had QEC's and Reaper IFF's.

Now they have no ground forces, haven't so much as put a dent in the organic civilizations' capability to wage war, and just did all of Shepard's work in ME3 for her, having spurred every civilized race in the galaxy to unify and transition to a war economy in a matter of hours.

Congratulations, Santa Anna.

What are you talking about? The Reapers *teleported* the Citadel to Earth. However that worked. Anyway, it would have taken them how long, hours? In ME1 at least it was a matter of hours for Sovereign alone and he almost succeeded. This time, Shepard was locked away. Nobody was warned. So before anyone noticed the Citadel would go dark, relays not working, neither communication which happens through the relays, the whole galaxy goes dark.

Then they can pick every single star system and take it one after the other with minimal resistance. Reaper IFF? Why does everyone think the Reapers are stupid? They may have changed it you know. That's what a smart person of the 20th century would do, I am sure the Reapers could somehow figure it out. Which makes our IFF useless. And if the relays are shut down, nobody gets through, not even Reapers. They can use FTL because it is actually fast, compared to ours. They surely can also activate mass relays one by one, whichever they need to get where they want to get.

[sp0ck 06]

The Angry One wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Why didn't the Empire bring a couple hundred Star Destroyers to Yavin in Star Wars?

Because they had a giant pokeball that could blow up planets, and no amount of interstellar cheese wedges would've prevented Luke from cheating and winning the way he did, the damn exploiter.

Its not a plot hole. They didn't attack it because then there would be no Citadel to hang out on.

That's not a storyline justification. It is a plot hole.

So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

[alienatedflea]

Prosarian wrote...

Why didn't the Reapers just claim the citadel at the start of the game?

Just made this thread in the hope that someone might have found something in the game to explain that. It's really been bugging me cos it makes the Reapers seem like idiots and it makes the rest of the plot feel ridiculous.

its the same reason of why the star child was messing with shepard from the beginning...Hubris on the part of the reaper made them not claim the citadel at the start of the game.  Why are you asking stupid questions?  I mean isnt it the whole reason we played Mass Effect 1 because Reapers were going to claim the citadel and utterly devestate the galactic community? >.< And here is another reason why they didnt...because if they did then how the game (ME3) wouldnt exist because the reapers would have already won because they would have demoralized us so bad that everyone would have lost hope...again why these stupid questions is beyond belief.

[JPN17]

humes spork wrote...

Okay, let's assume the Reapers captured and took the Citadel as their first step in their invasion.

They have the Citadel and its 13.2 million inhabitants. And, depending how deeply the protheans' ****ery went, limited ability to lock down the relays if at all when the organized races of the galaxy already had QEC's and Reaper IFF's.

Now they have no ground forces, haven't so much as put a dent in the organic civilizations' capability to wage war, and just did all of Shepard's work in ME3 for her, having spurred every civilized race in the galaxy to unify and transition to a war economy in a matter of hours.

Congratulations, Santa Anna.

Sovereign didn't have a problem locking the relays in ME1. Does everyone have QEC ability? Do all the fleets of the galaxy have IFF's installed? Can the reaper IFF technology even be duplicated by the races of the galaxy? I don't remember any of these ideas being touched on in game. Now these are some good ideas, but you can't use them as arguments because they're unknowns. The entire time the reapers have existed the plan has been to show up at the citadel, close the relays and then harvest. There's no explanation in game for why they didn't do that. Sure the element of surprise is gone, but jumping through however many relays they had to go through to get to the citadel would have been a piece of cake for the reapers. There should be some kind of explanation for why they changed their strategy so drastically in ME3 for the first time ever when they didn't have to. Instead we get nothing. Well that's not true, we get a plot hole. Yay...<_<

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

First, the inhabitants and the Council would NEVER allow the citadel arms to be closed because it would violate The First Rule of Stupidity.

So it's quite obvious that a reaper sleeper agent (probably Conrad Verner, or Captain Bailey) killed the council and closed the Citadel, and the Reaper capital ships just used giant grappling hooks and towed the thing through the mass relay system.

Then The Illusive Man travelled to Ilos because he knew that Shepard would be too stupid to do this, and used the conduit to get to the Citadel before Shepard, and only TIM had the IFF that would get through the Mu Relay -- he took it off the old Normandy.

See how it's done?

[AlexXIV]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Why didn't the Empire bring a couple hundred Star Destroyers to Yavin in Star Wars?

Because they had a giant pokeball that could blow up planets, and no amount of interstellar cheese wedges would've prevented Luke from cheating and winning the way he did, the damn exploiter.

Its not a plot hole. They didn't attack it because then there would be no Citadel to hang out on.

That's not a storyline justification. It is a plot hole.

So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

The deathstar was considered an ultimate weapon. And none of the builders was a billion year old cyborg with the experience of million species or whatever. They make mistakes. Overestimate their power. Didn't think of a small fighter pilot shooting a rocket in a vent that was next to impossible to hit unless you use the force.

The plothole is maybe that they should have known that jedi still exist to make it happen. But when 'A new hope' was created, Vader and Luke were the only force users left, and they didn't know about Luke. Only with the prequels it was established that other jedi survived. Actually I think the EU it was even before, but only after Return of the Jedi. However, ME3 was not created before ME2 or before ME1. Anyway, it is still something people pick on about Star Wars. And let's stop pretending ME can hold a candle to Star Wars. There will never be something like a 100 million dollar budged for ME. For Star Wars, in the blink of an eye.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[The Angry One]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

The station was supposed to repel any capital ship attack alone, didn't you watch the movie?
The fighter squadrons? Hubris. They make it clear the commander guy doesn't consider the fighters a threat. You know, exposition! It's good!

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

No, this is Mass Effect, and Mass Effect has it's contrivances but it's always been consistent. The Reapers not taking the Citadel until TIM tells them to is idiotic.

[Laurencio]

sp0ck 06 wrote...
So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

A space station with the firepower to annhilate a planet, manned by hundreds of thousands of soldiers, equipped with a myriad of defenses, with direct communication to every fleet in the Empire, as well as being equipped with several hundred fighter squadrons.

During the attack only a small number of fighters could follow the enemy because of the restricted space and need for maneuverability. I think they covered the "plot holes" very well in Star Wars.

Modifié par Laurencio, 03 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

No, this is Mass Effect, and Mass Effect has it's contrivances but it's always been consistent. The Reapers not taking the Citadel until TIM tells them to is idiotic.

I'd more use the term "arrogant" - the Citadel just wasn't a threat to them until they learned of the Crucible. Subjugating the homeworlds took precedence; the Citadel both has lower populations of harvestable material, and less capability to reinforce allied supply lines.

[sp0ck 06]

Laurencio wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

A space station with the firepower to annhilate a planet, manned by hundreds of thousands of soldiers, equipped with a myriad of defenses, with direct communication to every fleet in the Empire, as well as being equipped with several hundred fighter squadrons.

During the attack only a small number of fighters could follow the enemy because of the restricted space and need for maneuverability. I think they covered the "plot holes" very well in Star Wars.

Yeah, not to go too OT here...but why not send those "several hundred squadrons of fighters" ahead and blast the Rebel fighters and base before they could reach the Death Star?

[Laurencio]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

A space station with the firepower to annhilate a planet, manned by hundreds of thousands of soldiers, equipped with a myriad of defenses, with direct communication to every fleet in the Empire, as well as being equipped with several hundred fighter squadrons.

During the attack only a small number of fighters could follow the enemy because of the restricted space and need for maneuverability. I think they covered the "plot holes" very well in Star Wars.

Yeah, not to go too OT here...but why not send those "several hundred squadrons of fighters" ahead and blast the Rebel fighters and base before they could reach the Death Star?

I could be wrong, but wasn't the fighter squadrons detected when they had already managed to get close?

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I'd more use the term "arrogant" - the Citadel just wasn't a threat to them until they learned of the Crucible. Subjugating the homeworlds took precedence; the Citadel both has lower populations of harvestable material, and less capability to reinforce allied supply lines.

The Citadel is theirs. They designed and built it to serve a purpose that it is not serving with organics in control.
Their arrogance would demand that they take it. It's their property.

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Yeah, not to go too OT here...but why
not send those "several hundred squadrons of fighters" ahead and blast
the Rebel fighters and base before they could reach the Death Star?

Because we have a scene where Peter Cushing goes "Fighters!? GTFO". Well, essentially that anyway.
Only Vader takes his private squadron out because he feels like it, the leadership didn't take the fighters seriously. You see, this is explained, in the narrative. That's why it works.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 mai 2012 - 09:30 .

[AlexXIV]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, this is Mass Effect, and Mass Effect has it's contrivances but it's always been consistent. The Reapers not taking the Citadel until TIM tells them to is idiotic.

I'd more use the term "arrogant" - the Citadel just wasn't a threat to them until they learned of the Crucible. Subjugating the homeworlds took precedence; the Citadel both has lower populations of harvestable material, and less capability to reinforce allied supply lines.

Doesn't change the fact that it would be a war asset for the Reapers to have control of the relays and wipe out the leadership of the galactic civilisation. The Reapers just don't act smart, that's all. They pretty much should have overcome their superiority complex when Shepard destroyed Sovereign, or the Collectors, or stipped their 'Arrival'. I mean seriously, if your enemy succeeds to disrupt all your plans, at some point you should take them seriously if you're not the biggest idiot around. Especially if you are half machine and logic is part of your thought process. I mean how many moves will you lose in a game of chess before you start thinking that your opponent can play?

[An English Gamer]

 I imagine going for the assault without any serious distractions would have forced all the council races to attack. Appearing instantly at the Citadel is one thing put passing through the highest traffic areas of Galactic space is another. I think that had they made a bee-line for the Citadel the entire Galaxy would know it soon enough to mobilise the then-unoccupied fleets.
I like to think that had they had gone straight for it the forces put against them as a result would be so large that they would sustain heavy losses. They would win but would lose so many that it would take millions of years to recover their numbers, threatening the viability of future cycles.

[alsonamedbort]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I'd more use the term "arrogant" - the Citadel just wasn't a threat to them until they learned of the Crucible. Subjugating the homeworlds took precedence; the Citadel both has lower populations of harvestable material, and less capability to reinforce allied supply lines.

A couple of points here:

1) Are the Reapers capable of "arrogance?"  That seems to be an organic emotion that the Reapers don't really seem to possess.

2) If you take what the Catlyst says as true, the Reapers would be risking an awful lot by playing fast and loose with their traditional plan of taking the Citadel first.  If they fail, then (supposedly) all organic life in the galaxy is destroyed.

3) As to your point about the homeworlds taking precedence, it would be almost pitifully easy to subjugate most homeworlds if they arrive at the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relays (assuming the Keepers let them do that at this point).

Essentially, it's hard to come up with a justification other than that it makes it possible for you travel throughout the galaxy during the game.  Which is a plot-hole certainly, but for me it's an acceptable one.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

The Citadel is theirs. They designed and built it to serve a purpose that it is not serving with organics in control.
Their arrogance would demand that they take it. It's their property.

"Let the organics huddle on our creation. We will come for them in the depths of their despair."

A statement like that would sound pretty arrogant to me, moreso than immediately siezing it would.

[AlexXIV]

Laurencio wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
So you send a big space station out on an attack without a single screening escort?  Then when you are attacked, you only launch a few squadrons of fighters?  omg plot hole star wars is ruined 4eva.

I mean, does this really bother you?  Why is Shepard only ever attacked by a couple dozen enemies at once? Its a video game, sometimes practicality has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

A space station with the firepower to annhilate a planet, manned by hundreds of thousands of soldiers, equipped with a myriad of defenses, with direct communication to every fleet in the Empire, as well as being equipped with several hundred fighter squadrons.

During the attack only a small number of fighters could follow the enemy because of the restricted space and need for maneuverability. I think they covered the "plot holes" very well in Star Wars.

Yeah, not to go too OT here...but why not send those "several hundred squadrons of fighters" ahead and blast the Rebel fighters and base before they could reach the Death Star?

I could be wrong, but wasn't the fighter squadrons detected when they had already managed to get close?

It was a suprise attack. They were going to blow the rebel planet to hell before they can act. It didn't work. Obviously the empire's only experience in using the death star in combat was with peaceful planets that don't fight back. You can really easily claim inexperience when it is the first time they used the death star against an actual enemy.

[Funkdrspot]

it is a valid plot hole but I always assumed that the reason the reapers don't take it is because they don't need to consider time. They've already 'separated' the races by overwhelming them on every planet.

They don't know the extent of the protheans programming. Anyone tha successfully hacks reaper tech deserves to be feared

They don't know the extent of the defenses waiting for them

They ALREADY sent cerberus for that exact reason but most people don't realize it

The citadel sits dangerously close to a relay and they know this cycle can blow them up

The citadel isn't truly considered an asset until everyone finds out the crucible uses it

The reapers are winning handidly on all fronts and would have won this war in record time if not for Shepard

They already HAD the relays practically locked down since the Normandy is the only ship that can fly around without detection.

[The Angry One]

alsonamedbort wrote...

3) As to your point about the homeworlds taking precedence, it would be almost pitifully easy to subjugate most homeworlds if they arrive at the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relays (assuming the Keepers let them do that at this point).

I've heard the "Keepers stopped them" argument before, and it makes no sense to me.
The Reapers can, with a single destroyer, usurp control over the Salarian shroud facility on Tuchanka to make it turn the atmosphere toxic but they can't gain total control of their own Citadel's systems from their indoctrinated servants?

Come on.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

"Let the organics huddle on our creation. We will come for them in the depths of their despair."

A statement like that would sound pretty arrogant to me, moreso than immediately siezing it would.

Are the Reapers here to harvest efficiently or be supervillains?

[alsonamedbort]

Funkdrspot wrote...

They already HAD the relays practically locked down since the Normandy is the only ship that can fly around without detection.

Where are you getting that info from?  I don't remember that being in the game.