225 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Citadel is theirs. They designed and built it to serve a purpose that it is not serving with organics in control.
Their arrogance would demand that they take it. It's their property.

"Let the organics huddle on our creation. We will come for them in the depths of their despair."

A statement like that would sound pretty arrogant to me, moreso than immediately siezing it would.

And I guess after Shepard has prevented all their attempts they had reason enough to be super arrogant and drop a tactic they used ever since? They always took the citadel first and shut down the Reapers. That's what they did against the Protheans, just that they still could communicate through their beacons. However, we didn't even have beacons, we would be blind and deaf if they did shut down the relays and they just thought ... oh well, let's be arrogant and NOT do it this time ..

Makes sense. I suddenly like the game again. You people convinced me.

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

3) As to your point about the homeworlds taking precedence, it would be almost pitifully easy to subjugate most homeworlds if they arrive at the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relays (assuming the Keepers let them do that at this point).

I've heard the "Keepers stopped them" argument before, and it makes no sense to me.
The Reapers can, with a single destroyer, usurp control over the Salarian shroud facility on Tuchanka to make it turn the atmosphere toxic but they can't gain total control of their own Citadel's systems from their indoctrinated servants?

Come on.

one was able to be hacked in 10 seconds by mordin. the other was already of reaper design and was hacked by the protheans who had decades, mayb even centuries

[OchreJelly]

AlexXIV wrote...

We didn't defend the Citadel because that would be stupid. It would be stupid because the message would be, the Citadel is important we need to defend it. Which would lead to the question why the Reapers didn't take it first, which would be like Bioware calling themselves stupid. So basically the Citadel was IGNORED BY EVERYONE for the first part of the game.

Don't the reapers already know it's important though? First of all, they know it's the center of galactic politics, same as it has been most cycles. They know it is also, inexplicably, a reaper-creation machine. They presume they can still control the relays through it, as well.

I recall reading somewhere that the actual reaper attack on the citadel that involved taking it to earth, was cut for various reasons, and part of it would have explained that the keepers disabled all reaper control of its functions (relay control and that jazz.) But as this isn't in the game it's pure conjecture.

 If anything it seems central to their plans because they start to plan for the London site before they even are told about the Catalyst being the Citadel.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 03 mai 2012 - 09:41 .

[AlexXIV]

OchreJelly wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

We didn't defend the Citadel because that would be stupid. It would be stupid because the message would be, the Citadel is important we need to defend it. Which would lead to the question why the Reapers didn't take it first, which would be like Bioware calling themselves stupid. So basically the Citadel was IGNORED BY EVERYONE for the first part of the game.

Don't the reapers already know it's important though? First of all, they know it's the center of galactic politics, same as it has been most cycles. They know it is also, inexplicably, a reaper-creation machine. They presume they can still control the relays through, as well.

I recall reading somewhere that the actual reaper attack on the citadel that involved taking it to earth, was cut for various reasons, and part of it would have explained that the keepers disabled all reaper control of its functions (relay control and that jazz.)

 If anything it seems central to their plans because they start to plan for the London site before they even are told about the Catalyst being the Citadel.

Yeah I was being partly sarcastic.

[sp0ck 06]

The Reapers were probably planning on moving it to Earth anyway. They don't mind taking their time, so why bother risking more ships attacking the Citadel? Once they learned about the Crucible they simply moved up the timetable for the Citadel.

[alsonamedbort]

The Angry One wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

3) As to your point about the homeworlds taking precedence, it would be almost pitifully easy to subjugate most homeworlds if they arrive at the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relays (assuming the Keepers let them do that at this point).

I've heard the "Keepers stopped them" argument before, and it makes no sense to me.
The Reapers can, with a single destroyer, usurp control over the Salarian shroud facility on Tuchanka to make it turn the atmosphere toxic but they can't gain total control of their own Citadel's systems from their indoctrinated servants?

Come on.

Eh, I don't think it's too far out, considering their "indoctrinated servants" were unable to let them through the Citadel in ME1.  That being said, I actually agree with you on this, I just put that in there mainly to preempt that point being brought up in a rebuttal.

[PsyrenY]

alsonamedbort wrote...

A couple of points here:

1) Are the Reapers capable of "arrogance?"  That seems to be an organic emotion that the Reapers don't really seem to possess.

2) If you take what the Catlyst says as true, the Reapers would be risking an awful lot by playing fast and loose with their traditional plan of taking the Citadel first.  If they fail, then (supposedly) all organic life in the galaxy is destroyed.

3) As to your point about the homeworlds taking precedence, it would be almost pitifully easy to subjugate most homeworlds if they arrive at the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relays (assuming the Keepers let them do that at this point).

Essentially, it's hard to come up with a justification other than that it makes it possible for you travel throughout the galaxy during the game.  Which is a plot-hole certainly, but for me it's an acceptable one.

1) Difficult to say. They certainly look down on us (e.g. "dust struggling against cosmic winds") but they could genuinely see the relationship that way without any emotion whatsoever.

(I'm suddenly reminded of the argument between Byakuya and Zommari )

2) This too is where arrogance comes in - no species in millions, possible billions of years has defeated them and broken the cycle. The only thing that gave them any sort of pause was the Crucible's completion.

3) I'm not convinced the Citadel can even still do that. They would have certainly done so to keep the Crucible away if they could. I still believe your sabotage in ME1 prevented this functionality.

[OchreJelly]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I was being partly sarcastic.

Gotcha. *Tunes sarcasm-detector*

It's hard for me to put my finger on exactly how or where, but it feels like the writers for some parts lost control of the overall narrative and took to forcing things.

[AlexXIV]

alsonamedbort wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

3) As to your point about the homeworlds taking precedence, it would be almost pitifully easy to subjugate most homeworlds if they arrive at the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relays (assuming the Keepers let them do that at this point).

I've heard the "Keepers stopped them" argument before, and it makes no sense to me.
The Reapers can, with a single destroyer, usurp control over the Salarian shroud facility on Tuchanka to make it turn the atmosphere toxic but they can't gain total control of their own Citadel's systems from their indoctrinated servants?

Come on.

Eh, I don't think it's too far out, considering their "indoctrinated servants" were unable to let them through the Citadel in ME1.  That being said, I actually agree with you on this, I just put that in there mainly to preempt that point being brought up in a rebuttal.

Sovereign could have taken control over the citadel even without the keepers. And if not, well that's an even bigger plothole. Because if we killed the keepers it would basically make the Citadel safe for all times. However, Cerberus could do it. Then why not the Reapers? Because they are giant jellyfish who are too clumsy to use the tech they created themselves while everyone who is inferior would be able to? Sounds likely.

[OdanUrr]

Prosarian wrote...

Why didn't the Reapers just claim the citadel at the start of the game?

Because then the Reapers would have won and the game would've been over.

[alsonamedbort]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sovereign could have taken control over the citadel even without the keepers. And if not, well that's an even bigger plothole. Because if we killed the keepers it would basically make the Citadel safe for all times. However, Cerberus could do it. Then why not the Reapers? Because they are giant jellyfish who are too clumsy to use the tech they created themselves while everyone who is inferior would be able to? Sounds likely.

A very good point.  I sometimes forget exactly what happened at the end of ME1.

[legion999]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Why didn't the Empire bring a couple hundred Star Destroyers to Yavin in Star Wars?

Its not a plot hole. They didn't attack it because then there would be no Citadel to hang out on.

<facepalm>

[humes spork]

The Angry One wrote...

Don't make silly claims about the population of the Citadel, the population of the Citadel did not prevent them from controlling, closing, moving the Citadel or using it as a processing center.

Moroever.. 13.2 million people. Yeah. 11 BILLION people on Earth are so much easier to control, right? 

With what are the Reapers going to use to subdue, control and harvest planetary populations measuring in the billions? Two-kilometer-tall robots stomping around shooting buildings aren't going to accomplish that alone. The Reapers hit the batarian hegemony first for a reason, you know. It's almost as if the cannibals running around on Earth were poofed straight into existence from the ether.

Control over the relay network at this point is not guaranteed. More in a second.

Their "Reaper factory" as you put it is worthless without a population to harvest. And, if they hit the Citadel first they have no ground forces to invade and subdue planetary populations to harvest.

The question is not why don't the Reapers attack the Citadel first, it's rather when is it strategically advantageous for them to attack the Citadel.

The Reapers *teleported* the Citadel to Earth. However that worked. Anyway, it would have taken them how long, hours? In ME1 at least it was a matter of hours for Sovereign alone and he almost succeeded. This time, Shepard was locked away. Nobody was warned. So before anyone noticed the Citadel would go dark, relays not working, neither communication which happens through the relays, the whole galaxy goes dark.

How the Reapers got the Citadel to Earth is entirely a matter of inference and speculation. It's never exposited.

In terms of actually invading the Citadel first off, the Reapers would have had to fight through the improved Citadel fleet first. They would have had to get agents in the Citadel to use its controls. That alone would have taken time, and are you suggesting that in that time warnings would not have been broadcast throughout Citadel space?

I just know someone will mention the Cerberus HQ attack at this point. There's no exposition on when TIM left Cronos Station, or in specifics in terms of time frames from committing to the attack on Cronos Station to when the Citadel disappears. Ostensibly, the Reapers attacked and had the Citadel's move underway after the point at which Shepard committed to the attack on Cronos Station. And in this case, no because Shepard was not told by Hackett the Citadel was attacked does not mean it didn't happen; it was irrelevant to the action at hand, and a lower-priority piece of information than taking down Cerberus especially in the context that attacking Cronos Station tips the Alliance's hand to the Reapers and the organic species' had already committed.

In other words, if Hackett had learned the Citadel had been attacked during the assault on Cronos Station, it would have to wait until later to tell Shepard.

Sovereign didn't have a problem locking the relays in ME1. Does everyone have QEC ability? Do all the fleets of the galaxy have IFF's installed? Can the reaper IFF technology even be duplicated by the races of the galaxy? I don't remember any of these ideas being touched on in game. 

The Salarian First Fleet war asset entry provides the necessary information to answer your response. In the case of the foremost response, Saren didn't have a problem locking the Widow Nebula relay.

Now, we get to the IFF bit. The problem isn't with the Reaper IFF's themselves, it's with the relays. They're probably in the context of what's exposited about the Omega-4 relay hardcoded to respond to Reaper IFF's and probably will respond to Reaper IFF's regardless of their status. It makes no sense at all to code the relays to respond especially to Reaper IFF's, then proceed to lock the Reapers themselves out during lockdown. That means in all likelihood it's not a matter of simply going to the Citadel's master controls and pushing an IFF update, especially in the context that if someone would get into the Citadel's master controls and figure out their hidden protocols and features (like that would ever happen) you could push an update to lock anything with a Reaper IFF out of the relay network.

Modifié par humes spork, 03 mai 2012 - 09:59 .

[CmdrSlander]

They lost the Alpha Relay, and the Citadel was modified by the Protheans to no longer respond to their commands. It was completely out of their hands [tentacles] at that point. They were able to take it when they did because the Alliance 5th fleet was in the Anadius system attacking the Cerberus HQ and the rest of the fleets were massing to retake Earth (considering that Ceberus HQ leads immediately to Priority: Earth and that the Codex states a large fleet such as the Quarian migrant fleet takes days to traverse a mass relay (more traffic, slower travel and "traffic jams" at entry point. To all arrive at once, the fleets Shepard amassed would have had to enter separate relays [makes sense, different races, different home systems = different entry relays] that linked to the Charon or Arcturus prime relays).

[AlexXIV]

Ok I say it again. They have ALWAYS, EVER used the same tactic. The keepers contacted them, opened the Citadel relay to dark space. They came in through the citadel relays, seized the citadel, shut down the mass relays, attacks system per system. You say it isn't possible. Well I disagree because that's what they always did. However this time it would maybe harder because the keepers don't respond and they have no spies.

So you say this ancient brilliant race can't take their own Citadel because ... what ... they forgot to put in an interface for reapers? They never heard of remote control? Sorry, but stupid is stupid. It doesn't change if you change one stupid thing with another. If you really say they did not take the citadel first because they couldn't it is just as bad as them not taking the citadel because they were too arrogant, or stupid or ... whatever. Point is, DID they take the Citadel first, they would have won, and easy.

Obviously billions of years and millions of battles don't make you an expert.

[The Angry One]

humes spork wrote...

With what are the Reapers going to use to subdue, control and harvest planetary populations measuring in the billions? Two-kilometer-tall robots stomping around shooting buildings aren't going to accomplish that alone. The Reapers hit the batarian hegemony first for a reason, you know. It's almost as if the cannibals running around on Earth were poofed straight into existence from the ether.

The reason they hit the Hegemony first is was because it was the closest power to their arrival point.
Why do they need ground troops to control the Citadel? Interface with the Citadel, usurp control of systems, turn off life support to all sections.
Easiest conquest ever.

Control over the relay network at this point is not guaranteed. More in a second.

So they can't repair whatever damage the Protheans may have done to their own systems?

Their "Reaper factory" as you put it is worthless without a population to harvest.

Which is what they've been doing for months on Earth.

And, if they hit the Citadel first they have no ground forces to invade and subdue planetary populations to harvest.

So they don't hit it after Earth and Khar'Shan why?

The question is not why don't the Reapers attack the Citadel first, it's rather when is it strategically advantageous for them to attack the Citadel.

The moment they get there. Send 100 Reapers to blitz the Citadel at the same time as Earth, before the fleets can even organise.
Or do they not even have that much to spare?

[withinthelight]

It's cool, Catalyst had that **** covered...
or maybe, the true purpose of the Crucible was that it makes all the Reapers stupid. The reason the Catalyst was making no sense was because he was right next to the giant reaper stupification device. Reapers really had a much better reason for the cycles, catty just forgot and so he made up the first thing he could think of so he didn't look stupid in front of The Shepard.

Also, at that close a range it must mess with reaper tech cybernetics too and made Shep dumber as well, because all those colorful light tubes, yeah they totally don't do any of those things. Catty forgot about those too. They were all just the reaper "emergency oh **** blow up all the relays" buttons, whoops!

[gavinbrindstaar]

I think that it's because that would instantly unite all the species of the galaxy against the Reapers. If they're just attacking Earth, then no one else cares.

[AlexXIV]

gavinbrindstaar wrote...

I think that it's because that would instantly unite all the species of the galaxy against the Reapers. If they're just attacking Earth, then no one else cares.

And that's why they spread their fleet and attack everywhere at the same time? Because that doesn't unite the races, while shutting down the relays does?

[Laurencio]

gavinbrindstaar wrote...

I think that it's because that would instantly unite all the species of the galaxy against the Reapers. If they're just attacking Earth, then no one else cares.

How would they unite, or even communicate, without Mass Relays?

[OdanUrr]

Laurencio wrote...

gavinbrindstaar wrote...

I think that it's because that would instantly unite all the species of the galaxy against the Reapers. If they're just attacking Earth, then no one else cares.

How would they unite, or even communicate, without Mass Relays?

Morse code.

[The Angry One]

gavinbrindstaar wrote...

I think that it's because that would instantly unite all the species of the galaxy against the Reapers. If they're just attacking Earth, then no one else cares.

So they're occupying the homeworlds of 3 out of 4 of the Council member species and nobody cares?
Uh..

[Abreu Road]

This is the kind of plot hole that doesn't bother me in a story. It's like saying "why did not the Fellowship rode the big eagles and dropped the One Ring in Mount Doom?". If you think in that way, the movie will have 10 minutes or the book 100 pages. This is the same thing as Reapers attacking Earth, and all of sudden, Earth turns out to be the most important place in the entire galaxy even for people who never gave a **** for it.

This is a fundamental part of storytelling. It's only an (I really hate to use this word here) artistic choice and necessary for a story to evolve. I can deal with that. What I can't deal is 10 minutes of cluster****ing plotholes courtesy of Mr. Lot's of Speculation. THIS is plain stuppidity.

[OdanUrr]

Abreu Road wrote...

This is the kind of plot hole that doesn't bother me in a story. It's like saying "why did not the Fellowship rode the big eagles and dropped the One Ring in Mount Doom?". If you think in that way, the movie will have 10 minutes or the book 100 pages. This is the same thing as Reapers attacking Earth, and all of sudden, Earth turns out to be the most important place in the entire galaxy even for people who never gave a **** for it.

This is a fundamental part of storytelling. It's only an (I really hate to use this word here) artistic choice and necessary for a story to evolve. I can deal with that. What I can't deal is 10 minutes of cluster****ing plotholes courtesy of Mr. Lot's of Speculation. THIS is plain stuppidity.

No, we need to be consistent here. If we don't like the endings because they don't make sense, for whatever reason, then the same applies to the fact that the Reapers do not attempt to follow through on their plan of shutting down the relays and picking their enemies off one system at a time. The Reapers created the Citadel, they created the relays, they most definitely could have shut down the relay network if they had put their minds to it. They didn't, and that doesn't make sense.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 03 mai 2012 - 10:49 .

[Aaleel]

It doesn't bother me because there would have been no game if the reapers used sound strategy,

Of course they should have taken the Citadel first, closed the relays and then systematically harvested each system in any order they saw fit.

But if they did it, Shepard would have been stuck in the Sol system waiting for Humanity's turn, and what kind of game would that have been.