225 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaoken]

The Angry One wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

They could, but it would take time, they'd have to dismantle it and fix it directly. Simply put they don't see the need to do it, since they would have to divert resources they're using against Earth and Pavelon to guard the Citadel while it's being repaired.

Okay, if it takes, say, 10 Sovereign class Reapers, billions of minds working together more than a month to reboot their own Citadel's systems I officially call the Reapers stupidest species EVER.

The Reaper's already have a system of repairing the Citadel, it's called the Keepers. Unfortuately they've spent 50,000 years working against them, so they have o take their masterpiece of technology designed to operate independently for millions of years and repair it themselves. Believe it or not complex machines take a lot of time to repair if the fault is serious enough.

[Aaleel]

Shaoken wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The post I replied to said that the virus corrupted the Citadel's ability to shut off the relay network.  If that were the case, the moment it was used every relay would have opened and stayed open since the Citadel lost the ability to keep them closed due to the virus.

Shepard would not have needed to open a relay for the fifth fleet. That explanation doesn't make any sense.

The virus disrupted the Reaper's ability to control the network, and gave control of it to Shepard temporarliy. My guess is that after Shepard openned the Relays, killed Sov-Ren and what not the virus spread through the system without any obstruction, corrupting over the course of months/years.

I'm just going off what Weekes said at PAX

I just finished a playthrough of ME1 last weekend and all Vigil said was that the 'data file' would override the Citadel security protocals and give Shepard temporary control over the Mass Relays.  This whole Idea that this 'data file' destroyed the Citadel's ability to control the rest of the relays is nonsense.  Like I said, it the 'data file' did this, Shepard would not have been able to turn right around and control a relay.

[xsdob]

The Angry One wrote...

xsdob wrote...

How about they had no reason to until it was discovered that it was the key to their destruction.

At which point they took it to the exact location their enemy was planning to go anyway and open a back door to it themselves.

REAPRS R SMRT.

Well if this entire thing were to use actual logic the reapers would mearly travel in a giant horde and wipe out the galaxy one planet at a time. It would take probably 3 centuries but they'd pretty much be able to drive out all the races and collect them with ease.

Plus by taking so long they could just wait as alliances would break down, military cohesion erodes, and races begin to fight eachother over the dwindling resources. It would be much more effective than doing a blitzcrieg strike that spreads them out thin enough to be picked off and gives continuous reason for all the races to stand together and fight as one.

Or even better, they'd wait for a few more centuries until everybodies forgotten about shepard and than moved in to wipe them out when they've gone back to blissful ignorance.

Sometimes things are done simply for the sake of having a narrative. Things that don't make sense occur, events that should'nt be able to happen do, and everything boils into a climactic showdown. And I'm sorry that the ending has suspended your ability to let these common techniques of writting for almost every story go, I can let it go because I know that it was done for the sake of narrative continuity, this is a battle that has been building, and it needs a final showdown to take place.

So I just wanted to say this and leave before I started another flamewar.

Modifié par xsdob, 04 mai 2012 - 12:51 .

[Shaoken]

Aaleel wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The post I replied to said that the virus corrupted the Citadel's ability to shut off the relay network.  If that were the case, the moment it was used every relay would have opened and stayed open since the Citadel lost the ability to keep them closed due to the virus.

Shepard would not have needed to open a relay for the fifth fleet. That explanation doesn't make any sense.

The virus disrupted the Reaper's ability to control the network, and gave control of it to Shepard temporarliy. My guess is that after Shepard openned the Relays, killed Sov-Ren and what not the virus spread through the system without any obstruction, corrupting over the course of months/years.

I'm just going off what Weekes said at PAX

I just finished a playthrough of ME1 last weekend and all Vigil said was that the 'data file' would override the Citadel security protocals and give Shepard temporary control over the Mass Relays.  This whole Idea that this 'data file' destroyed the Citadel's ability to control the rest of the relays is nonsense.  Like I said, it the 'data file' did this, Shepard would not have been able to turn right around and control a relay.

Did you ignore what I said? The file corrupted the process over an extended period of time of being unoppossed in the system.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Shaoken wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

So after Shepard used the MCU to allow the fifth fleet to attack Sovereign he/she actually used a virus on the MCU to render it inoperable forever?.. why the hell would anybody ever do that?

It does not take much imagination to realize that having control over the relay network might be a pretty good..no not good GREAT idea, especially when that person knows without any doubt that the reapers are coming.

The virus was to give termporary control over the Citadel's systems. I don't recall it damaging anything permanently.

But let's say it did.
The idea that the Reapers would be unable to flush and reboot their own systems that they designed and built is beyond absurd.
It's basically saying these billion year old machines together are less efficient and capable than Microsoft.

They could, but it would take time, they'd have to dismantle it and fix it directly. Simply put they don't see the need to do it, since they would have to divert resources they're using against Earth and Pavelon to guard the Citadel while it's being repaired.

Yeah well you see like "intelligent beings"(snicker) they should have forgotten about Earth and Palavan until they had the citadel operational and then just proceed to harvest in a orderly fashion like they have done thousand of times before!

Except every time before nobody knew they were coming or what they would be doing. That was the entire point of using the Citadel to shut down the relays. That won't work this time, everybody knows who they are off the bat. The second they took the Citadel every fleet in the Galaxy would be on their ass because there is no reason for them not to be; the Reaper's are ignoring everything else, they aren't making husks, and everybody knows how important the Citadel is.
So no, ignoring Earth and Paveon is a god-damn stupid idea, you're leaving the two military giants with their infurstructre intact when you know that they know whatyou'd do with the Citadel and that they have the numbers to do a great deal of damage to you.

How is this different from what they are doing now, Splitting up their forces to attacking Earth, Palavan and plenty of other targets leaves the reapers far more vulnerable than concentrating them all at the citadel to begin with, I don't care how grand you think the Earth alliance and the Turian Hierarchy is there is still no way the two of them could do anything against the full combined force of the reapers.

The Reaper's have TIME. They measure their life span in the billions of years. There is no need to take hastey actions that can backfire. Even with the relays opperational the best the organics can do is hold the line for a few years. hat's because the Reaper's are destroying every piece of infrustructre they can. If they rushed to the Citadel they'd have to fight the combined might of the entire galaxy at once, who are still capable of makin new ships, weapons and ammo to replace what's lost.

The hasty action here is to split up your forces and launch a haphazard campaign over multiple fronts instead of securing your primary target.

[Velocithon]

I want a good reason why the Citadel was ever moved to Earth. And then why a convenient magic space elevator (beam me up Scotty) allows access straight to the control panel. And then why nothing was really guarding it, just a few cannons and Harbinger at the last minute. You'd think something like that would have like a dozen Reapers guarding it or something.

[The Angry One]

Shaoken wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

They could, but it would take time, they'd have to dismantle it and fix it directly. Simply put they don't see the need to do it, since they would have to divert resources they're using against Earth and Pavelon to guard the Citadel while it's being repaired.

Okay, if it takes, say, 10 Sovereign class Reapers, billions of minds working together more than a month to reboot their own Citadel's systems I officially call the Reapers stupidest species EVER.

The Reaper's already have a system of repairing the Citadel, it's called the Keepers. Unfortuately they've spent 50,000 years working against them, so they have o take their masterpiece of technology designed to operate independently for millions of years and repair it themselves. Believe it or not complex machines take a lot of time to repair if the fault is serious enough.

Reapers can directly interface with the Citadel, the Keepers have not been working against them. There merely accept commands only from the Citadel and not externally.
With access to the Citadel's systems fixed, the Keepers will work for them.

[Aaleel]

Shaoken wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The post I replied to said that the virus corrupted the Citadel's ability to shut off the relay network.  If that were the case, the moment it was used every relay would have opened and stayed open since the Citadel lost the ability to keep them closed due to the virus.

Shepard would not have needed to open a relay for the fifth fleet. That explanation doesn't make any sense.

The virus disrupted the Reaper's ability to control the network, and gave control of it to Shepard temporarliy. My guess is that after Shepard openned the Relays, killed Sov-Ren and what not the virus spread through the system without any obstruction, corrupting over the course of months/years.

I'm just going off what Weekes said at PAX

I just finished a playthrough of ME1 last weekend and all Vigil said was that the 'data file' would override the Citadel security protocals and give Shepard temporary control over the Mass Relays.  This whole Idea that this 'data file' destroyed the Citadel's ability to control the rest of the relays is nonsense.  Like I said, it the 'data file' did this, Shepard would not have been able to turn right around and control a relay.

Did you ignore what I said? The file corrupted the process over an extended period of time of being unoppossed in the system.

Based on what?  I'm tired of these retcon statements that have absolutely no foundation in the game as they try to clean this up.  They had two games to lay this out with no mention.  What, no one noticed that the Citadel was suddenly unable to control relays anymore?  Don't you think Vigil would have said this will make it so that the Citadel can no longer control relays including opening the one that links from dark space?

Wouldn't the Protheans had done it themselves way back when.  Obviously Vigil didn't create this file.

Modifié par Aaleel, 04 mai 2012 - 01:01 .

[The Angry One]

Velocithon wrote...

I want a good reason why the Citadel was ever moved to Earth. And then why a convenient magic space elevator (beam me up Scotty) allows access straight to the control panel. And then why nothing was really guarding it, just a few cannons and Harbinger at the last minute. You'd think something like that would have like a dozen Reapers guarding it or something.

Or better yet, turn it off.
Or, better yet, don't build it in the first place.

I mean seriously on the one hand the Reapers are patient so they don't care about the Citadel.
On the other, they're so impatient that the moment they get the Citadel they must build a teleporter to transport humans up for processing instead of waiting until the Crucible is destroyed just to be safe.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Reaper fleet shows up at the citadel.

Harbinger :"Oh s**** a virus, What will we do now? ..I know we build the the citadel and all..and we even got 11 million potential victims for indoctrination that could do our dirty work and get this thing working again..but I'm really all out of ideas.."

[Velocithon]

The Angry One wrote...

Velocithon wrote...

I want a good reason why the Citadel was ever moved to Earth. And then why a convenient magic space elevator (beam me up Scotty) allows access straight to the control panel. And then why nothing was really guarding it, just a few cannons and Harbinger at the last minute. You'd think something like that would have like a dozen Reapers guarding it or something.

Or better yet, turn it off.
Or, better yet, don't build it in the first place.

I mean seriously on the one hand the Reapers are patient so they don't care about the Citadel.
On the other, they're so impatient that the moment they get the Citadel they must build a teleporter to transport humans up for processing instead of waiting until the Crucible is destroyed just to be safe.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

I know. I mean, it's stated numerous times that the harvesting of a species is a slow process and that the Reapers are absolutely thorough. It takes centuries, according to Vigil.

Yet this cycle clearly has shown more resilience than past civilizations and developed the Crucible, which the Reapers are aware of. And they take no cautionary steps at all.

I can understand the impatience if the cycle never stopped the invasion twice and never built the bane of their existence. But we did. And they just proceed like we never did this stuff.

edit: And this is a huge plothole that no one has ever addressed.

Modifié par Velocithon, 04 mai 2012 - 01:09 .

[humes spork]

The Angry One wrote...

So you think the Reapers are that stretched so thin that they can't attack the homeworlds and the Citadel.
Why do we need the Crucible again?

Okay let's assume the Reapers have 300 capital ships.

- Take Khar'Shan first.
- Send 100 to Earth.
- Send 150 to Palaven.
- Send 50 to the Citadel.

Problem?

Actually, that leads into the primary problem I have with the entire game, but that's neither here nor there and my interest here is in discussing what is opposed to what could have been.

That aside, remember the Battle of Palaven codex entry. They attacked Palaven en masse and only succeeded in taking the relay and world through heavy losses, after running the turian "blockade" to initiate orbital bombardment and forcing the turians to retreat to protect civilian populations. The Citadel is a smaller, more defensible and more hardened target than a planet, and guarded by what's been exposited as the largest single concentration of naval forces in the galaxy. If the Reapers had a hell of a fight on their hands to take Palaven, taking the Citadel would be even more difficult and costly.

[Sisterofshane]

humes spork wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So you think the Reapers are that stretched so thin that they can't attack the homeworlds and the Citadel.
Why do we need the Crucible again?

Okay let's assume the Reapers have 300 capital ships.

- Take Khar'Shan first.
- Send 100 to Earth.
- Send 150 to Palaven.
- Send 50 to the Citadel.

Problem?

Actually, that leads into the primary problem I have with the entire game, but that's neither here nor there and my interest here is in discussing what is opposed to what could have been.

That aside, remember the Battle of Palaven codex entry. They attacked Palaven en masse and only succeeded in taking the relay and world through heavy losses, after running the turian "blockade" to initiate orbital bombardment and forcing the turians to retreat to protect civilian populations. The Citadel is a smaller, more defensible and more hardened target than a planet, and guarded by what's been exposited as the largest single concentration of naval forces in the galaxy. If the Reapers had a hell of a fight on their hands to take Palaven, taking the Citadel would be even more difficult and costly.

I believe that part of the Citadel's Defense Protocol is also to steer it into the Widow Nebula, which obscures it from  invading ships for a short time.  A planet doesn't have the ability to be "shrouded".

I'm not sure whether this tactic would have any use against the Reapers, but at least it's another layer of defense that a planet doesn't have.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Sisterofshane wrote...

humes spork wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So you think the Reapers are that stretched so thin that they can't attack the homeworlds and the Citadel.
Why do we need the Crucible again?

Okay let's assume the Reapers have 300 capital ships.

- Take Khar'Shan first.
- Send 100 to Earth.
- Send 150 to Palaven.
- Send 50 to the Citadel.

Problem?

Actually, that leads into the primary problem I have with the entire game, but that's neither here nor there and my interest here is in discussing what is opposed to what could have been.

That aside, remember the Battle of Palaven codex entry. They attacked Palaven en masse and only succeeded in taking the relay and world through heavy losses, after running the turian "blockade" to initiate orbital bombardment and forcing the turians to retreat to protect civilian populations. The Citadel is a smaller, more defensible and more hardened target than a planet, and guarded by what's been exposited as the largest single concentration of naval forces in the galaxy. If the Reapers had a hell of a fight on their hands to take Palaven, taking the Citadel would be even more difficult and costly.

I believe that part of the Citadel's Defense Protocol is also to steer it into the Widow Nebula, which obscures it from  invading ships for a short time.  A planet doesn't have the ability to be "shrouded".

I'm not sure whether this tactic would have any use against the Reapers, but at least it's another layer of defense that a planet doesn't have.

On the other hand your can mount multiple really big canons like the ones we see on Tuchanka on a planet ..really strange that a militaristic culture like the Turians doesn't have that kind of batteries.

[Laurencio]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

humes spork wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So you think the Reapers are that stretched so thin that they can't attack the homeworlds and the Citadel.
Why do we need the Crucible again?

Okay let's assume the Reapers have 300 capital ships.

- Take Khar'Shan first.
- Send 100 to Earth.
- Send 150 to Palaven.
- Send 50 to the Citadel.

Problem?

Actually, that leads into the primary problem I have with the entire game, but that's neither here nor there and my interest here is in discussing what is opposed to what could have been.

That aside, remember the Battle of Palaven codex entry. They attacked Palaven en masse and only succeeded in taking the relay and world through heavy losses, after running the turian "blockade" to initiate orbital bombardment and forcing the turians to retreat to protect civilian populations. The Citadel is a smaller, more defensible and more hardened target than a planet, and guarded by what's been exposited as the largest single concentration of naval forces in the galaxy. If the Reapers had a hell of a fight on their hands to take Palaven, taking the Citadel would be even more difficult and costly.

I believe that part of the Citadel's Defense Protocol is also to steer it into the Widow Nebula, which obscures it from  invading ships for a short time.  A planet doesn't have the ability to be "shrouded".

I'm not sure whether this tactic would have any use against the Reapers, but at least it's another layer of defense that a planet doesn't have.

On the other hand your can mount multiple really big canons like the ones we see on Tuchanka on a planet ..really strange that a militaristic culture like the Turians doesn't have that kind of batteries.

Probably did, probably got hit first, probably ineffective. Turian tech is less advanced than Prothean tech, and Prothean gun batteries were useless against the Repears.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You guys just don't understand. The virus that the Protheans loaded into the Citadel was Windows 95 version 1.0 and Netscrape 1.2. This is why nothing is working according to plan. And do you really think it was Shepard that killed Sovereign? No. Sovereign got infected when it was interfacing and the program kept trying to update "Windows 95 has encountered an error and must close. Sorry for the inconvenience."

Okay the brain cells are deteriorating. But, I am still trying to figure out since the Citadel was always the first place to fall, why every civilization would build the Crucible which is dependent upon the Citadel for operation? This has as much logic as "Yo dawg, I heard you don't want to be killed by synthetics so I made some synthetics to kill y'all every 50,000 years so you won't be killed by synthetics."

Call this the plot hole from hell.

[Velocithon]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You guys just don't understand. The virus that the Protheans loaded into the Citadel was Windows 95 version 1.0 and Netscrape 1.2. This is why nothing is working according to plan. And do you really think it was Shepard that killed Sovereign? No. Sovereign got infected when it was interfacing and the program kept trying to update "Windows 95 has encountered an error and must close. Sorry for the inconvenience."

EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW. I CAN SEE THE LIGHT!

Modifié par Velocithon, 04 mai 2012 - 01:38 .

[Shadow Shep]

I think the bottom line simplest answer for this is "plot shield". Bioware know that people like the Citadel, and people want to go mess around on the Citadel. They wanted to find a way to let people go back and experience the Citadel.

Does this cause problems in logic? I would say absolutely. Even if there was no Crucible whatsoever, I would see no reason for the reapers not to send a couple destroyers to take it. I mean they have the resources to come after the Normandy way out in the middle of nowhere simply for using my scanner.

So again, it seems to me that the Citadel is untouched for most of the game simply because they knew a lot of us would want to visit, and so we could be all so surprised when we discover how the Crucible works.

[Shaoken]

Velocithon wrote...

I want a good reason why the Citadel was ever moved to Earth. And then why a convenient magic space elevator (beam me up Scotty) allows access straight to the control panel. And then why nothing was really guarding it, just a few cannons and Harbinger at the last minute. You'd think something like that would have like a dozen Reapers guarding it or something.

They moved it above London because Anderson was born there, and it was the main stomping grounds of the Doctor. Two of the galaxies biggest bad asses tied to one spot? Can't take no chances, that's why they sent Maurader Shields.

For a slightly more serious answer, it was where the bulk of their forces were, and they had dominance of space in the system. So Sol was really a no brainer since it was firmly under their control.

As for the space elevator, they were using it to send bodies up to make a new Reaper because hey, why not? You got a perfectly good Reaper factory just laying around, why not use it? Plus that last minute Harbinger was enough to wipe out all of hammer. Had Harby not decided that something else had caught his eye he could have "assuming direct control"-ed Maurader Shields and become Harbinger Shields; killer of Shepard and Anderson.

But really, one Reaper is all yo need.

[Prosarian]

They could have worked this into the game. Say after the Batarians got hit, the Council quickly appealed to the Salarians for aid, since they've decoded the IFF, they could apply it to the relay to reject Reaper signatures. So the first part of the game we could have Shepard running about gathering an alliance like we already do. Then at last once the Cerberus mission starts, the Reapers take control of the Citadel and move it to Earth. It avoids all this bs.

[gmboy902]

Well, with the Relay mechanism sabotaged irreparably after ME1, they didn't have their usual motive of "go there to shut down the Relay system". And they wanted the humans more than anything.

Still, I would imagine the Reapers wouldn't just go straight for the goal. One would think they would divide and conquer, cutting off the Council and center of commerce/politics then moving to decimate Earth.

[Aaleel]

Velocithon wrote...

I want a good reason why the Citadel was ever moved to Earth. And then why a convenient magic space elevator (beam me up Scotty) allows access straight to the control panel. And then why nothing was really guarding it, just a few cannons and Harbinger at the last minute. You'd think something like that would have like a dozen Reapers guarding it or something.

They took where their forces were the most concentrated for protection.  But then they let the crucible moving slow a molassus float in and dock with it, so who knows.  They also made a back door and left it open even as the enemy was massing to obviously make a run at it. 

And when did the citadel open up and why?  The crucible couldn't dock while it was closed.

Modifié par Aaleel, 04 mai 2012 - 03:15 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Or better yet, turn it off.
Or, better yet, don't build it in the first place.

I mean seriously on the one hand the Reapers are patient so they don't care about the Citadel.
On the other, they're so impatient that the moment they get the Citadel they must build a teleporter to transport humans up for processing instead of waiting until the Crucible is destroyed just to be safe.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

If they did everything right we'd never win 

[Erield]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or better yet, turn it off.
Or, better yet, don't build it in the first place.

I mean seriously on the one hand the Reapers are patient so they don't care about the Citadel.
On the other, they're so impatient that the moment they get the Citadel they must build a teleporter to transport humans up for processing instead of waiting until the Crucible is destroyed just to be safe.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

If they did anything right we'd never win 

Fixed

[kaztas]

gmboy902 wrote...

Well, with the Relay mechanism sabotaged irreparably after ME1, they didn't have their usual motive of "go there to shut down the Relay system". And they wanted the humans more than anything.

Still, I would imagine the Reapers wouldn't just go straight for the goal. One would think they would divide and conquer, cutting off the Council and center of commerce/politics then moving to decimate Earth.

They don't need a back door in. Do like Sovereign and charge it and make contact. It took Citadel's defense force already there and a human fleet to kill sovereign and that's only after he' was weakened by the avatar-power-loss-killed thing... o.O, anyways, a few reapers could easily recapture the citadel..sigh.

No citadel means no relays. Even still, they really weakened the Reapers capabilities in ME3. You would think that a race that invented the tech that the common civilizations were made to develop on, would know the path of technological advancement of those civilizations and not be susceptable to a laser blast from them.