35 réponses à ce sujet

[deuce985]

I'm just curious on personal thoughts about this.

I get that it's a bit different from DA:O's combat. However, I don't think it's a radical change like I've seen some people talk about on here. To me, it feels like DA:O at a faster pace and a new coat of paint, gore included.

I actually like the direction but it could use a little more polish. Is it the fact that it's not slower like DA:O that people don't like it? Because strategically speaking(minus tactical cam being gone), I would argue it's more strategic than DA:O's combat, ESPECIALLY on Nightmare...

I have to place my Warrior in perfect positioning in order to not kill my teammates. I use my Warrior to block chokepoints from my Mages. This is especially apparent in narrow spaces. Like on the Deep Roads part where you fight the dragon. They're nuking him behind me in the narror corridor and they avoided the small whelps spawning going for them. They all came for me.

Secondly, I'd argue spell "combos" are far more significant and common in DA2. Everything is built around cross-class combinations. They had it present in DA:O but not to this degree. The level of strategy behind this is fantastic, especially when I'm allocating skill points.

I like that some of my spells feel like they have weight behind them too. Should you be seeing enemies implode? Yes, you should based on the power of some spells. Do I think the gore can be turned down a bit? Sure. But it doesn't bother me as much. Also, the new staff mechanics is just awesome. I love that...

Do I think some things need to be changed? Yea. I'd like to see tactical cam come back and get rid of the randomly spawning ninjas.  I think you should be able to see practically every enemy present before you initiate combat. That would make positioning--like blocking chokepoints much easier to do. Get rid of the random cannon fodder enemies with low health bars. Less enemies but make them harder to kill.

I'm just curious to see how many people's opinion differ from mine on this forum. Anybody care to share their thoughts? I liked both DA:O and DA2's combat.

[brushyourteeth]

I think the main problem people have with the combat is what you'll hear people call the "button of awesome"- your regular ol' attack that's activated by button or key which you can spam when you're out of mana/energy. In DA:O the attack was slow and clunky, but they got it right in that it should do remarkably less damage than your special attacks and abilities. In DAII it was fast-paced and looked awesome, but it also did damage almost comparable to your special attacks when mashed just right. If you played the game on casual, you could almost get away with only using the awesome button, and that did feel out of balance.

It could use a fix, but it didn't really bother me that much.

[deuce985]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I think the main problem people have with the combat is what you'll hear people call the "button of awesome"- your regular ol' attack that's activated by button or key which you can spam when you're out of mana/energy. In DA:O the attack was slow and clunky, but they got it right in that it should do remarkably less damage than your special attacks and abilities. In DAII it was fast-paced and looked awesome, but it also did damage almost comparable to your special attacks when mashed just right. If you played the game on casual, you could almost get away with only using the awesome button, and that did feel out of balance.

It could use a fix, but it didn't really bother me that much.

Is that something specific to console? I play it on PC, so I have no idea. I mostly just press R so my staff on the Mage just hits the nearest enemy.

But yea, balance is definitely a issue. Like tactics AI. Isabella in my party on Nightmare with my Warrior can be annoying because she is dumb enough to constantly path in front of me right when I drop a MIghty Blow. And of course, it destroys her. I've played with the behavior options in tactics and the same with the rest...they need a more robust AI system with more tactics.

Things like that seem like simple balancing to me. Not anything that is truly game-breaking.

One thing I think DA:O definitely did better...was the enemies and how you could identify who was elite easier. I tend to play everything in real-time for immersion without pausing. That causes problems for me when I need to target the most powerful enemy in a pack. Sometimes you can't really tell who is the elite just by looking at the models. It was easier to do in DA:O. Probably because they also threw less waves at you. I liked that system personally. Less enemies spawning on you.

Also, the assassins are a major balance issue on Nightmare. Bai god...those things are annoying. They hit stealth and for some odd reason...you can't break their stealth even with a massive AOE. They backstab me, take half my health away, disappear and repeat. So annoying lol. Those are minor complaints though because when I see assassins I just focus everyone on them...stun and kill them ASAP lol.

[Kidd]

¤ Too many waves make the combats take forever (otherwise I like the new pace).

¤ Certain sword strikes feel like there is no weight at all behind the blow with how quick it is and how quick you recover - there's a huge landscape in between the swing speeds of DAO and DA2 and I believe the just right speed is found in between the two and not at either extreme.

¤ The short range closing rogue attacks are quite odd. Why would people roll like that in combat? The long range closing attack isn't as bad, though I imagine some feel the leap goes too high in the air. Functionally it's great.

¤ A few bosses and some late game lieutenants have too much HP bloat.

Those are my only problems with the DA2 combat system I believe. Considering all the good things I have to say about it, I feel people are being way too harsh on it =)

[Dakota Strider]

As "the_one" stated in another thread, DAO was the compromise between older Bioware fantasy rpg's and the genre of action gaming.  This is especially true in combat.   DAO removed many of the aspects of strategic and tactical battle.    The amount of spells that Bioware's previous fantasy rpg had available was in the hundreds.  The amount of combat feats and skills was also a much higher amount than was available in DAO. 

Yet, most of us that liked the older style could accept this compromise as necessary to more "realistic" looking animations.  However DA2 basically threw the compromise away, and moved so close to a full action game, that there was barely a resemblance to the strategic/tactical combats that a Bioware fan had come to expect from them.

So...in my opinion....DA2 combat was very bad, and the worst part of the game.  For those that prefer arcade style action games,  it probably felt very comfortable to them.  But why should Bioware move towards that style of combat, when there are scores of that style of game available already.  Bioware should continue to do what has made them stand out, instead of attempting to be a clone of other game companies' games.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 03 mai 2012 - 06:50 .

[Leoroc]

Assassins were bad and so were the mages with the "TPK Ball" that players didnt have access to.

Also not a fan of entering healing mode as a mage.

Modifié par Leoroc, 03 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[Wulfram]

The problem with DA2 combat is the encounter design.

There's not enough variety. There's only a very limited amount of enemies, with basically all humanoids being basically the same - at least DA:O had enemies with talents, and thus a bit of variety, particularly if some guys with specialisations turned up. The Templars could actually use Templar abilities, for example.

And almost all battles follow the same endless waves format, which turns things into a big chore. Too often you've killed the story enemy - the guy with a name who actually talks - in the first wave, and you're thinking "why hasn't this combat finished yet?" as the 3rd or 4th lot turn up to be slaughered.

edit:  Mechanically, DA2 combat is actually more solidly designed than DA:O, I think.

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[dracuella]

My only beef with DA2 combat is that you have to play on nightmare to get the features of DA:O I expected (AoE effects affecting your companions, resistances being anything other than 'neutral' etc). Because, let's face it, I suck at combat and while I could cope DA:O by a lot of careful planning, I cannot do DA2 on nightmare without eventually breaking my input devices >:[

It takes away from the combat, the tactical aspect is sort of void and makes it too easy most of the time.

As to the button of awesome, I haven't seen this either on my mage playing on PC, there is definately a difference between my regular staff hits and my specials. Perhaps it is as you say a console thing? Or perhaps even a warrior/rogue thing?

Modifié par dracuella, 03 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Dakota Strider]

dracuella wrote...

As to the button of awesome, I haven't seen this either on my mage playing on PC, there is definately a difference between my regular staff hits and my specials. Perhaps it is as you say a console thing? Or perhaps even a warrior/rogue thing?

Cannot pass up an opportunity to show this.   This will explain it fully.  www.youtube.com/watch

[Kidd]

Dakota Strider wrote...

So...in my opinion....DA2 combat was very bad, and the worst part of the game.  For those that prefer arcade style action games,  it probably felt very comfortable to them.  But why should Bioware move towards that style of combat, when there are scores of that style of game available already.  Bioware should continue to do what has made them stand out, instead of attempting to be a clone of other game companies' games.

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask a quick off-topic question. Could you please name a game that plays like DA2? Cause to me it's one of the most unique video games I've ever played. It feels extremely much like what I imagine in my head when I play D&D with friends, allowing me to focus on my own character in a way BG/KotOR/DAO does not to immerse myself in the situation, yet still having those other party members around since we fight as a team.

I've heard many times that DA2 was less unique than DAO and I am definitely not ready to agree with that. Whether the changes in DA2 were for the better or worse in anyone's eyes is not what I want to hear by asking this question, I just want to play some more games that play like DA2.

[deuce985]

Dakota Strider wrote...

As "the_one" stated in another thread, DAO was the compromise between older Bioware fantasy rpg's and the genre of action gaming.  This is especially true in combat.   DAO removed many of the aspects of strategic and tactical battle.    The amount of spells that Bioware's previous fantasy rpg had available was in the hundreds.  The amount of combat feats and skills was also a much higher amount than was available in DAO. 

Yet, most of us that liked the older style could accept this compromise as necessary to more "realistic" looking animations.  However DA2 basically threw the compromise away, and moved so close to a full action game, that there was barely a resemblance to the strategic/tactical combats that a Bioware fan had come to expect from them.

So...in my opinion....DA2 combat was very bad, and the worst part of the game.  For those that prefer arcade style action games,  it probably felt very comfortable to them.  But why should Bioware move towards that style of combat, when there are scores of that style of game available already.  Bioware should continue to do what has made them stand out, instead of attempting to be a clone of other game companies' games.

I can see that. I guess I like DA2's combat for what it is. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing them stay in this direction for DA3 and just refining some elements off it.

I've played all Bioware's older games. I can see the argument there. Personally, I've always wanted RPGs to move to a more actionish approach without compromising what makes RPG combat so unique. I guess that's why I like DA2's combat direction. Most RPGs feel like they have amazing depth in all areas except their combat. While they're usually fun and strategic, their animations are bland and the flow of combat is slow. That doesn't bother me because I'm so use to it. But I do prefer when games speed things up like DA2 did. That's just my opinion though.

But I can definitely see your argument. Technically though, Bioware has been moving to ARPG since Jade Empire with DA:O being the exception. I wouldn't mind them going back to the DA:O formula or keeping it ARPG. I think the best balance would be between both if they could do that, IMO.

[Dakota Strider]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

So...in my opinion....DA2 combat was very bad, and the worst part of the game.  For those that prefer arcade style action games,  it probably felt very comfortable to them.  But why should Bioware move towards that style of combat, when there are scores of that style of game available already.  Bioware should continue to do what has made them stand out, instead of attempting to be a clone of other game companies' games.

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask a quick off-topic question. Could you please name a game that plays like DA2? Cause to me it's one of the most unique video games I've ever played. It feels extremely much like what I imagine in my head when I play D&D with friends, allowing me to focus on my own character in a way BG/KotOR/DAO does not to immerse myself in the situation, yet still having those other party members around since we fight as a team.

I've heard many times that DA2 was less unique than DAO and I am definitely not ready to agree with that. Whether the changes in DA2 were for the better or worse in anyone's eyes is not what I want to hear by asking this question, I just want to play some more games that play like DA2.

To answer your question, you realize I am mainly talking about the combat, right?  In that regard, I do not have enough experience in playing action games, to give you an exact match, because I avoid playing them.  Other players that have a much wider or diverse gaming background, can probably come up with comparisons that are far more accurate.

But, I have played old arcade games and DA2 combat in many ways felt similar to old games like Street Fighter (and others) where your character and companion has over the top moves that send you flying or teleporting through the air to make physically impossible, or at least improbably moves.   And I would add Gauntlet as another comparison, where hordes of enemies seem to continously flow from some unseen monster generator. 

For me, combat in DA2 came down to remembering a few different keystrokes, and repeating them over and over.  There just were not that many choices.

When I think of old style rpg's, the concept is usually the only thing that changes from our reality, is there is magic in the world, which leads to fantastic creatures.  But humans are basically the same physically.  They should not be able to do things in combat (without the assistance of magic) that a human in our world is unable to perform.  So for me, DA2 just seemed way too unrealistic.  It was great eye candy, if that is what you want.  But i do not need to have my character duplicating the special affects you see in some martial arts movies or cartoons. 

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 03 mai 2012 - 07:16 .

[Kidd]

Dakota Strider wrote...

But, I have played old arcade games and DA2 combat in many ways felt similar to old games like Street Fighter (and others) where your character and companion has over the top moves that send you flying or teleporting through the air to make physically impossible, or at least improbably moves.   And I would add Gauntlet as another comparison, where hordes of enemies seem to continously flow from some unseen monster generator.    

As someone who plays in Street Fighter tournaments, let me assure you the games are nothing alike =) Vastly different genres that are about very different things. Gauntlet is a lot closer, but still nothing like DA2 in reality. Thanks for trying though - that is not sarcastically meant btw. I'd love if someone could give me some pointers where to find another game like DA2

[TMZuk]

The reason I hated it was not wether it was faster or not. I hated the way it looked. Stupid, over the top and cartoonish. I hated the innane class-restrictions regarding weapons and skills as well.

[Cyr8]

The framework of the combat system in two is good. If they keep the framework and build off it, that would be good. Other than the constant annoying flipping of the dual handed rogue, the impossible movement of the warrior with those weapons, and the constant baton-twirling of the mages, I didn't have a problem with the combat ITSELF. But I did have a problem with the things around it.

- The constant spawning of enemies. I remember screaming "Not again!", "Again?" and cursing the name of the developers.

- The hunters/assassins. These enemies are so irritating. The only way to really get them to stay visible so you can hit them is do an AOE attack near your weaker group members, and the AOE attack might kill them on Nightmare, which is almost unbearable with Hunters. They always go for the mages first then every other weak member. It's just backstab, fight for a bit, flip into invisibility. Rinse and repeat. Either lower the hit strength of the backstab, lower the frequency (if my character can't do it as often as they want, why can the hunger), or get rid of it.

- Blood mages/way too powerful enemy mages. When I give my characters blood powers, why are they never as powerful as enemy blood mages? Why do some mages have a powerful force ball power that I don't have access too? WTH kind of balance is this?

- can we have more variety in enemies? Fighting humans all the time grew to be boring, so much so that the occassional band of Blight enemies (forgot their name) made me like "Oh yeah, this is a Dragon Age game, huh."

[TEWR]

Combat animation speed =/= combat itself.

My problems with it can be summed up accurately in my blog

I cover animations, tactics, and waves. And at the bottom are a few comments adding on to what I feel needs to be done.

It's all in my opinion, mind you.

[DarkDragon777]

Yes.

[Face of Evil]

I dig it. The animations are a lot better — there's a lot less of that "sparkly lights" crap from DAO.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 03 mai 2012 - 08:21 .

[deuce985]

Cyr8 wrote...

The framework of the combat system in two is good. If they keep the framework and build off it, that would be good. Other than the constant annoying flipping of the dual handed rogue, the impossible movement of the warrior with those weapons, and the constant baton-twirling of the mages, I didn't have a problem with the combat ITSELF. But I did have a problem with the things around it.

- The constant spawning of enemies. I remember screaming "Not again!", "Again?" and cursing the name of the developers.

- The hunters/assassins. These enemies are so irritating. The only way to really get them to stay visible so you can hit them is do an AOE attack near your weaker group members, and the AOE attack might kill them on Nightmare, which is almost unbearable with Hunters. They always go for the mages first then every other weak member. It's just backstab, fight for a bit, flip into invisibility. Rinse and repeat. Either lower the hit strength of the backstab, lower the frequency (if my character can't do it as often as they want, why can the hunger), or get rid of it.

- Blood mages/way too powerful enemy mages. When I give my characters blood powers, why are they never as powerful as enemy blood mages? Why do some mages have a powerful force ball power that I don't have access too? WTH kind of balance is this?

- can we have more variety in enemies? Fighting humans all the time grew to be boring, so much so that the occassional band of Blight enemies (forgot their name) made me like "Oh yeah, this is a Dragon Age game, huh."

That pretty much sums up my main complaints about the combat right now too. Fairly easy things to fix, IMO. These flaws really expose themselves when you play on the higher difficulties.

@The Ethereal Writer Redux I put a bookmark on that. I'm currently doing something and I'll  read it later and comment...

Modifié par deuce985, 03 mai 2012 - 08:26 .

[TEWR]

deuce985 wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux I put a bookmark on that. I'm currently doing something and I'll read it later and comment...

Okey dokey! It's not that great of a blog methinks, but it does provide a framework I feel for how combat can be improved in the future.

And you see some of what's said in it in the DLCs.

[Joy Divison]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask a quick off-topic question. Could you please name a game that plays like DA2? Cause to me it's one of the most unique video games I've ever played. It feels extremely much like what I imagine in my head when I play D&D with friends, allowing me to focus on my own character in a way BG/KotOR/DAO does not to immerse myself in the situation, yet still having those other party members around since we fight as a team.

I've heard many times that DA2 was less unique than DAO and I am definitely not ready to agree with that. Whether the changes in DA2 were for the better or worse in anyone's eyes is not what I want to hear by asking this question, I just want to play some more games that play like DA2.

I think the reason you can't find any games which play like DA2's combat is because there are so many undesirable elements to DA2's combat, most game designers try to steer clear of something like it.

And I'm not even talking about the issues people generally acknowledge like paratroop waves, over-the-top animations, and numerous enemies which one shot your PCs.

Enemies have over 100,000 hit points whereas the PCs having ~150
Lack of variety; enemies are either pointless meatbags or extremely dangerous.
Your Cone of Cold kills your companion but only slightly damages a mook.
For all the talk of an "awesome" button, the game is an auto-attack fest.
The difficuly in moving the camera for observation and targeting is an unforgivable sin.
Why are dogs immune to fire?
Why can't a trained warrior use a bow?
The kitefest "dual" vs. the Arishok is, to me, a damning indictment of why the combat in DA2 sucks.

You have every right to enjoy it and by all means have a blast playing it.  But there are a lot of reasons why other game designers are more likely going to shy away from it which is why I think you are having difficulty finding anything like it, not because DA2 is somehow distictively superior.

[caradoc2000]

Joy Divison wrote...

Why are dogs immune to fire?

They are hot dogs.

[BlacJAC74]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

But, I have played old arcade games and DA2 combat in many ways felt similar to old games like Street Fighter (and others) where your character and companion has over the top moves that send you flying or teleporting through the air to make physically impossible, or at least improbably moves.   And I would add Gauntlet as another comparison, where hordes of enemies seem to continously flow from some unseen monster generator.    

As someone who plays in Street Fighter tournaments, let me assure you the games are nothing alike =) Vastly different genres that are about very different things. Gauntlet is a lot closer, but still nothing like DA2 in reality. Thanks for trying though - that is not sarcastically meant btw. I'd love if someone could give me some pointers where to find another game like DA2

Don't play many action adventure games myself, but a game i found similar to DA2 (combat wise) was Enslaved.  Was a pretty cool game with a good story attached to it.  Didn't think i'd get anything out of it, yet I was actually plesantly surprised.

[Direwolf0294]

I prefered DA2's combat over Origins because I actually felt like I was part of the fight rather then sitting on the sidelines watching it all happen. It did have its flaws though, such as no auto attack. The cool down on abilities could have also benifited from being a bit shorter. Also enemies exploding in clouds of blood sucks, but that's less of a combat problem and more of an artistic problem.

[Joy Divison]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Why are dogs immune to fire?

They are hot dogs.