202 réponses à ce sujet

[Hyunsai]

You really think Mages in DA are only crowd control spells ? This classe got the most variety of stuff to get rid of one opponent, too bad the creativity was gimped by a few broken spells everybody was using as a "I win" button, with the result now people think without them Mages are totally screwed...

[Creature 1]

themaxzero wrote...
I already don't use FF+taunt (self imposed limit).

I don't use this either because I think darkspawn are smart enough to realize if they're not damaging a target and it appears to be frozen, maybe they should go after someone else instead.  If the AI were smart enough to retarget it would be different. 

They should continue to allow you to cast Force Field on your party members (and also allow Crushing Prison) but make the AI not target party members in a FF. 

[Matthew Young CT]

Yeah I would like to be able to use FF to save a character. At the moment I just feel full of cheese if I cast it =(

[TheMadCat]

Hyunsai wrote...

You really think Mages in DA are only crowd control spells ? This classe got the most variety of stuff to get rid of one opponent, too bad the creativity was gimped by a few broken spells everybody was using as a "I win" button, with the result now people think without them Mages are totally screwed...

I don't think anyone seriously believes mages are now screwed, easily the most powerful class in the game due to the variety you mentioned. I also don't think the spells were "nerfed" in the name of balance but rather because people got annoyed when a enemy caster placed it on them. The changes to Crushing Prison, Blizzard, and Force Field just don't really make much sense from a balance point and goes in a completely opposite direction of what their design seemed to originally be. FF is still seriously broken, Crushing Prison went from a CC/DOT spell to essentially a pure damage spell. Cone of cold isn't a bad change though personally I would have done something slightly different, and Blizzard seemes like it had a massive change to it though I'm not sure on it's pratical use as I've never used it.

That's the one issue I had with the spell changes, they just didn't really seem to be done in the name of fixes and balances rather to have it so the player was sitting there 20-30 seconds on lockdown. Doing so I think it killed the original intentions of all spells.

[themaxzero]

I feel this game should be as open as possible. Its a lot easier to put in a limit in a game then it is to expand it.



I mean its easy to say 'make the game harder!' if you have a lot of experience with CRPGs and tolkinish/DnD type universe. But what about all those players who are having trouble on the lower difficulty levels? What do they do? The largest (and fastest growing) gamer group are casual gamers.



If people really want more challenge they should ask Bioware for a higher difficulty level that is truly horrific so they can gnash their teeth in private. Then people who want an easier game get that and people who want a harder game get what they want. Everyone is happy.



Spell changes like this effect EVERYONE across all difficulty levels. Why does everyone get effected by a change wanted by a few?

[CBGB]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Comicbook guy: Worst .... Patch .... Ever!

"And let it be known that I had my views posted on the Internet within minutes."

Good times! And that won't stop me:

Cone of Cold - Fine.
Force Field - Fine. A 50% drop is a big change, but it still offers good control.
Blizzard - Too much! Dropping from 20 seconds of freeze to 4 is a huge change, one that undermines the purpose of the spell. Yes, it has a chance to catch slow mobs on the next proc, but for the most part, you've cut its crowd-control effectiveness by 80%.
Crushing Prison - Ack! 20 seconds to 9 seconds of control? You've undermined the main value of this spell. Yes, it still does damage, but it's gutted as CC.

While the percentage drop is greater for Blizzard, the impact on Crushing Prison hurts most: it's now a damage spell with a hold instead of the other way around. For CC, I should have taken Petrify. Or the second-tier holds of Paralyze or Horror instead of the fourth-tier CP.



Any chance you'd consider an official respec patch when you make such huge changes?

[Atranes]

Do the changes to Blizzard affect Storm of the Century calculations? They shouldn't, since SOTC doesn't freeze anyway, but curious if there are any unintended consequences.

[Creature 1]

TheMadCat wrote...

Hyunsai wrote...

You really think Mages in DA are only crowd control spells ? This classe got the most variety of stuff to get rid of one opponent, too bad the creativity was gimped by a few broken spells everybody was using as a "I win" button, with the result now people think without them Mages are totally screwed...

I don't think anyone seriously believes mages are now screwed, easily the most powerful class in the game due to the variety you mentioned. I also don't think the spells were "nerfed" in the name of balance but rather because people got annoyed when a enemy caster placed it on them. The changes to Crushing Prison, Blizzard, and Force Field just don't really make much sense from a balance point and goes in a completely opposite direction of what their design seemed to originally be. FF is still seriously broken, Crushing Prison went from a CC/DOT spell to essentially a pure damage spell. Cone of cold isn't a bad change though personally I would have done something slightly different, and Blizzard seemes like it had a massive change to it though I'm not sure on it's pratical use as I've never used it.

That's the one issue I had with the spell changes, they just didn't really seem to be done in the name of fixes and balances rather to have it so the player was sitting there 20-30 seconds on lockdown. Doing so I think it killed the original intentions of all spells.

Has anyone ever had Blizzard or CoC cast on their party?  I've had Crushing Prison many times, they drop it on my mage and I say, "Now we're screwed."  I kind of don't have Alistair's dispelling ability.    This change just made it so my mage is still screwed, just more rapidly--if she pulled enough aggro to get a Crushing Prison cast at her, she probably has other damage incoming and no way to heal unless Wynn's in the background.  I've also had Fireball, Chain Lightning (please don't nerf this--I think it's actually a little underpowered), and Winter's Grasp cast at me.  Otherwise besides some glyphs not much variety in the enemy mages' spell books. 

Blizzard previously has been one of my favorite room-cleaning spells.  Hopefully it still has some utility. 

[Atrakus]

I'm going to miss force fielding my tank for nearly the entire duration of tougher encounters.

[themaxzero]

CBGB wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Comicbook guy: Worst .... Patch .... Ever!

"And let it be known that I had my views posted on the Internet within minutes."

Good times! And that won't stop me:

Cone of Cold - Fine.
Force Field - Fine. A 50% drop is a big change, but it still offers good control.
Blizzard - Too much! Dropping from 20 seconds of freeze to 4 is a huge change, one that undermines the purpose of the spell. Yes, it has a chance to catch slow mobs on the next proc, but for the most part, you've cut its crowd-control effectiveness by 80%.
Crushing Prison - Ack! 20 seconds to 9 seconds of control? You've undermined the main value of this spell. Yes, it still does damage, but it's gutted as CC.

While the percentage drop is greater for Blizzard, the impact on Crushing Prison hurts most: it's now a damage spell with a hold instead of the other way around. For CC, I should have taken Petrify. Or the second-tier holds of Paralyze or Horror instead of the fourth-tier CP.



Any chance you'd consider an official respec patch when you make such huge changes?

The main one that concerns me is Crushing Prison. That spell does not even work on bosses (the CC part) anyway its purely a lt killer. In future Mage builds i'll prob be skipping both that and Telekinetic weapons.

[soteria]

Wait, MYCT asked if people arguing against further balancing changes think nightmare is hard enough, and got a response, "You can always use a mod if you want to make it harder." That's not an answer, exactly... so do you? Is Nightmare hard enough as-is, without playing with "house rules" or a mod?

[themaxzero]

soteria wrote...

Wait, MYCT asked if people arguing against further balancing changes think nightmare is hard enough, and got a response, "You can always use a mod if you want to make it harder." That's not an answer, exactly... so do you? Is Nightmare hard enough as-is, without playing with "house rules" or a mod?

It depends on your definition of 'hard'. Will you have to reload now and again? Yes. Will you have to use pots and salves, yes (depends on party make up). Will you have to make somewhat min maxed (in that that they are built for performance not RP) characters, yes.

Will you have pull your hair out screaming during every boss fight, probably not.

Really you only way you will know is if you play nightmare yourself.

[CoarseDragon]

Umm, I thought Mages were supposed to be powerful, maybe I was wrong, but I don't see why any change was needed at all.

Modifié par CoarseDragon, 08 décembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[Tirigon]

I dont like the changes either, but I dont understand the whining. You can try mods, and if you really dont get along with the nerfs, dont patch the game. I did it to try it out, but noone forces you to do so. As I understand there isnt really much changed besides of the spell nerfs, so just stay on 1.01.

[Staylost]

Wait, does Crushing Prison still do the (100+spellpower)*1.5 damage? Just over a shorter time length?

[themaxzero]

Staylost wrote...

Wait, does Crushing Prison still do the (100+spellpower)*1.5 damage? Just over a shorter time length?

Yeah it basically does Virulent Walking Bomb damage but no AoE. Its pretty much just  a nuke now.

[robertthebard]

themaxzero wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

its the holy trinity because it is immutable. cc simply reduces the enemies DPS to 0, nothing more.

No CC replaces tanking. Its a form of damage mitigation. A good tank can make damage taken trival too, nerf tanks?

Apparently, you are misinformed.  CC mitigates damage to the tank by limiting the number of mobs that are actively attacking the tank, or that have escaped from the tank to attack other party members.  If you are using CC to kill mobs, thereby eliminating the need to tank, then this patch is exactly what you need to teach you to play.  Yes, I went there.  In an ideal situation, only the guy in the heavy armor should be getting hit, and unless you're playing on Easy mode, with no friendly fire, then you can't CC all the mobs anyway.

It's funny, because my usual tactic for a boss fight with minions is to have my tanker fight the boss, and my dpsers take down the minions, if I have a healer type to keep the tank afloat.  If the tank dies, it's over.  If you're as anal about equipment on your party as I am, then this should work out rather well.  Why do I do this?  Because after a couple of years off of SP games, during which I played MMO's and watched how parties function, I have found that this is the ideal set up.  If I could have a larger party, I'd probably include an off tank for peskier mobs, or for when there's more than one yellow named mob in the crowd.  If you burn down the minions, leaving only the boss to fight, things can go pretty smoothly.  If the minions are ranged, then CC spells like Blizzard are handy to try to keep them out of the fight, or Mass Paralysis, and then focus on the melee, including the boss, if he happens to be melee.  There are times where this will not apply, and in those instances, my ranged crew works on the boss, and my tank keeps the melee minions away from the party.

Using this tactic, I did a certain party members ambush, and only killed two attackers, excluding the ranged boss, who gave up at the point of death.

[Staylost]

themaxzero wrote...

Staylost wrote...

Wait, does Crushing Prison still do the (100+spellpower)*1.5 damage? Just over a shorter time length?

Yeah it basically does Virulent Walking Bomb damage but no AoE. Its pretty much just  a nuke now.

Thanks.

At least the damage is saved. Too bad its cooldown is so gigantic you won't be using it more than once in most battles.

[themaxzero]

robertthebard wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

its the holy trinity because it is immutable. cc simply reduces the enemies DPS to 0, nothing more.

No CC replaces tanking. Its a form of damage mitigation. A good tank can make damage taken trival too, nerf tanks?

Apparently, you are misinformed.  CC mitigates damage to the tank by limiting the number of mobs that are actively attacking the tank, or that have escaped from the tank to attack other party members.  If you are using CC to kill mobs, thereby eliminating the need to tank, then this patch is exactly what you need to teach you to play.  Yes, I went there.  In an ideal situation, only the guy in the heavy armor should be getting hit, and unless you're playing on Easy mode, with no friendly fire, then you can't CC all the mobs anyway.

It's funny, because my usual tactic for a boss fight with minions is to have my tanker fight the boss, and my dpsers take down the minions, if I have a healer type to keep the tank afloat.  If the tank dies, it's over.  If you're as anal about equipment on your party as I am, then this should work out rather well.  Why do I do this?  Because after a couple of years off of SP games, during which I played MMO's and watched how parties function, I have found that this is the ideal set up.  If I could have a larger party, I'd probably include an off tank for peskier mobs, or for when there's more than one yellow named mob in the crowd.  If you burn down the minions, leaving only the boss to fight, things can go pretty smoothly.  If the minions are ranged, then CC spells like Blizzard are handy to try to keep them out of the fight, or Mass Paralysis, and then focus on the melee, including the boss, if he happens to be melee.  There are times where this will not apply, and in those instances, my ranged crew works on the boss, and my tank keeps the melee minions away from the party.

Using this tactic, I did a certain party members ambush, and only killed two attackers, excluding the ranged boss, who gave up at the point of death.

It depends on the game WoW uses a strict tanking setup for damage mitigation. Whereas City of Heroes uses a much broader structure where you CC from Controllers or Dominators could substitute for a traditional tank. I prefered the City of Heroes model. Gave players much more flexibility in creating groups. This is partially the model DA had till 1.02.

Just for the record I have tanked endgame raids in WoW (4 years) and lvl 50 taskforces in City of Heroes (2 years). In addition I have played RPGs for over 20 years so yeah lets continue this pissing contest.

Modifié par themaxzero, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:00 .

[AgenTBC]

soteria wrote...

Wait, MYCT asked if people arguing against further balancing changes think nightmare is hard enough, and got a response, "You can always use a mod if you want to make it harder." That's not an answer, exactly... so do you? Is Nightmare hard enough as-is, without playing with "house rules" or a mod?

Speaking for myself, I still think nightmare is way too easy.  There isn't a single fight that should give you serious problems with the possible exception of a few of the random encounters if you hit them at the wrong level... and that may have been nerfed in the patch so may no longer apply.

But even with the spell changes nightmare mode is very easy if you're any good at gaming.

[robertthebard]

themaxzero wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

its the holy trinity because it is immutable. cc simply reduces the enemies DPS to 0, nothing more.

No CC replaces tanking. Its a form of damage mitigation. A good tank can make damage taken trival too, nerf tanks?

Apparently, you are misinformed.  CC mitigates damage to the tank by limiting the number of mobs that are actively attacking the tank, or that have escaped from the tank to attack other party members.  If you are using CC to kill mobs, thereby eliminating the need to tank, then this patch is exactly what you need to teach you to play.  Yes, I went there.  In an ideal situation, only the guy in the heavy armor should be getting hit, and unless you're playing on Easy mode, with no friendly fire, then you can't CC all the mobs anyway.

It's funny, because my usual tactic for a boss fight with minions is to have my tanker fight the boss, and my dpsers take down the minions, if I have a healer type to keep the tank afloat.  If the tank dies, it's over.  If you're as anal about equipment on your party as I am, then this should work out rather well.  Why do I do this?  Because after a couple of years off of SP games, during which I played MMO's and watched how parties function, I have found that this is the ideal set up.  If I could have a larger party, I'd probably include an off tank for peskier mobs, or for when there's more than one yellow named mob in the crowd.  If you burn down the minions, leaving only the boss to fight, things can go pretty smoothly.  If the minions are ranged, then CC spells like Blizzard are handy to try to keep them out of the fight, or Mass Paralysis, and then focus on the melee, including the boss, if he happens to be melee.  There are times where this will not apply, and in those instances, my ranged crew works on the boss, and my tank keeps the melee minions away from the party.

Using this tactic, I did a certain party members ambush, and only killed two attackers, excluding the ranged boss, who gave up at the point of death.

It depends on the game WoW uses a strick tanking setup for damage mitigation. Whereas City of Heroes uses a much broader structure where you CC from Controllers or Dominators could substitute for a traditional tank. I prefered the City of Heroes model. Gave players much more flexibility in creating groups. This is partially the model DA had till 1.02.

Just for the record I have tanked endgame raids in WoW (4 years) and lvl 50 taskforces in City of Heroes (2 years). In addition I have played RPGs for over 20 years so yeah lets continue this pissing contest.

Gladly.  Never played WoW.  Blame the community.  Just go to any other MMO forum and read for a bit, and you'll see what kept me out of WoW.  In the list of MMO's that I have looked at and played, most free, since my disability demands that, we had classes that did CC, mostly mages, but other classes had stuns, so they could back up CC, if needed.  Warrior classes had all the taunting skills, to keep enemies focused on them so that dps's could burn them down.  I don't want to bust your bubble, either, really, but I have been playing RPG's for a long time myself.  Probably pretty close to that 20 years, excluding time in PnP D&D games, and I played 1st edition of that.  So does that make me an expert on gaming too?  I mean, you want to wear this as a badge or something, but at 46 years old, and as a dedicated gamer, I assure you, I've played a lot of games, and have put a lot of time into the games I play, being disabled and all.

[themaxzero]

robertthebard wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

its the holy trinity because it is immutable. cc simply reduces the enemies DPS to 0, nothing more.

No CC replaces tanking. Its a form of damage mitigation. A good tank can make damage taken trival too, nerf tanks?

Apparently, you are misinformed.  CC mitigates damage to the tank by limiting the number of mobs that are actively attacking the tank, or that have escaped from the tank to attack other party members.  If you are using CC to kill mobs, thereby eliminating the need to tank, then this patch is exactly what you need to teach you to play.  Yes, I went there.  In an ideal situation, only the guy in the heavy armor should be getting hit, and unless you're playing on Easy mode, with no friendly fire, then you can't CC all the mobs anyway.

It's funny, because my usual tactic for a boss fight with minions is to have my tanker fight the boss, and my dpsers take down the minions, if I have a healer type to keep the tank afloat.  If the tank dies, it's over.  If you're as anal about equipment on your party as I am, then this should work out rather well.  Why do I do this?  Because after a couple of years off of SP games, during which I played MMO's and watched how parties function, I have found that this is the ideal set up.  If I could have a larger party, I'd probably include an off tank for peskier mobs, or for when there's more than one yellow named mob in the crowd.  If you burn down the minions, leaving only the boss to fight, things can go pretty smoothly.  If the minions are ranged, then CC spells like Blizzard are handy to try to keep them out of the fight, or Mass Paralysis, and then focus on the melee, including the boss, if he happens to be melee.  There are times where this will not apply, and in those instances, my ranged crew works on the boss, and my tank keeps the melee minions away from the party.

Using this tactic, I did a certain party members ambush, and only killed two attackers, excluding the ranged boss, who gave up at the point of death.

It depends on the game WoW uses a strick tanking setup for damage mitigation. Whereas City of Heroes uses a much broader structure where you CC from Controllers or Dominators could substitute for a traditional tank. I prefered the City of Heroes model. Gave players much more flexibility in creating groups. This is partially the model DA had till 1.02.

Just for the record I have tanked endgame raids in WoW (4 years) and lvl 50 taskforces in City of Heroes (2 years). In addition I have played RPGs for over 20 years so yeah lets continue this pissing contest.

Gladly.  Never played WoW.  Blame the community.  Just go to any other MMO forum and read for a bit, and you'll see what kept me out of WoW.  In the list of MMO's that I have looked at and played, most free, since my disability demands that, we had classes that did CC, mostly mages, but other classes had stuns, so they could back up CC, if needed.  Warrior classes had all the taunting skills, to keep enemies focused on them so that dps's could burn them down.  I don't want to bust your bubble, either, really, but I have been playing RPG's for a long time myself.  Probably pretty close to that 20 years, excluding time in PnP D&D games, and I played 1st edition of that.  So does that make me an expert on gaming too?  I mean, you want to wear this as a badge or something, but at 46 years old, and as a dedicated gamer, I assure you, I've played a lot of games, and have put a lot of time into the games I play, being disabled and all.

So how about using some maturity you learned in those 46 years:

If you are using CC to kill mobs, thereby eliminating the need totank, then this patch is exactly what you need to teach you to play. Yes, I went there.

I went there too. Don't cry foul when you start it.

You need to broaden your horizons a little with MMOs then, the holy trinity is old, dated concept. I really suggest you have a go at City of Heroes and see how CC can very effectively substitute for a tank and how it creates options rather then limits them.

Having tanks as the only source of mitigation isn't a good thing.

Modifié par themaxzero, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[Yaron Jakobs]

Quick correction:

Crushing Prison total DOT damage is lowered by around 15%.



For all those who are worried about the spell's effectiveness: the spell can still be very effective as CC - it is still one of the most powerful spells in the game. Don't forget there is no resistance check against it.

[SheffSteel]

Yaron Jakobs wrote...

Quick correction:
Crushing Prison total DOT damage is lowered by around 15%.

For all those who are worried about the spell's effectiveness: the spell can still be very effective as CC - it is still one of the most powerful spells in the game. Don't forget there is no resistance check against it.

But it doesn't always stop people, does it? What are the rules for that?

[Taleroth]

Yaron Jakobs wrote...

Quick correction:
Crushing Prison total DOT damage is lowered by around 15%.

For all those who are worried about the spell's effectiveness: the spell can still be very effective as CC - it is still one of the most powerful spells in the game. Don't forget there is no resistance check against it.

Is the damage reduction from the static or the spellpower coefficient?

Not that it's important, I'm just nosy and curious.

Modifié par Taleroth, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:37 .