233 réponses à ce sujet

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
The point is, if he upgrade to intelligence levels on the level of synthetics, we will be able to research and advance even faster than other. That advancement and research may lead, but isn't limited to, cures to diseases and peaceful diplomacy.

Who says the synthesis upgrades intelligence? If it doesn't improve physical ailments, why assume it improves intelligence?

What exactly are you nay-sayers trying to argue here, exactly? I don't get it.

You rail this choice for making a great drastic change, but then insist that no change took place because none are apparent, aside from the glowing green on Joker's skin.

Come back to me when you get it sorted out.

I did no such thing, just asking you why you think synthesis upgraded intelligence if it doesn't even affect physical maladies.  You're straw-manning because you have nothing better to say?

[ArchDuck]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Konfined wrote...

No, but they allow you to forcibly change every being in the galaxy though, right?  Joker's skin doesn't turn grey, he also still suffers from Brittle Bone too.

That's funny. First of all, I don't remember synthesis ever entailing a cure to all disease in the galaxy. But seeing as he still suffers from the disease afterwards, that pretty much reinforces the point that not all indivuality is lost. Vrolik's syndrome, being as it is a hereditary disease (iirc), is genetic. So if he's maintained that in the end, then it's unlikely that he's lost any of his prior individual traits.

BOOM! There goes another oft-used synthesis gripe, out the window.

Well, if it doesn't get rid of those things, then what's the point. It seems like an empty violation of everyone for no discernible gain. It can't ensure lasting peace, it doesn't get rid of disease, so what point does it have? It seems you've shot your own advantages in the foot.

I'm hardly going to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy just to make it all glow green.  

The point is, if he upgrade to intelligence levels on the level of synthetics, we will be able to research and advance even faster than other. That advancement and research may lead, but isn't limited to, cures to diseases and peaceful diplomacy.

Funny how the tides turn. First it was terrible because it stripped us of our individuality. When that complaint no longer works, why hasn't it changed us MOAR????

I pity da fool.

People aren't switching sides. You play X card and we are showing how if you logically extend it that it still doesn't make much sense.

Sythesis is ethically unsound.

Unless you or the catalyst has precognition (can see the future with 100% accuracy) then you don't know if these changes are for better or worse.

Is it OK to gamble the future of all life (that we know of) on information presented by a being that does not understand DNA or evolution? And on top of that, do it without asking or informing people it will happen?

Can you even imagine the panic that would take place in self aware and other species? Whole species would die out because their mates look sick and are unsuitable as far as their instincts (from evolution) are telling them. Not to mention the rioting and mass suicides that would happen. How many beings would kill themselves because they thought they were being turned into husks?

If you think it is fine then you wouldn't mind someone walking up to you tomorrow and jabbing you in the arm with a syringe full of a unknown retrovirus? Oh and when you ask what the hell they are doing they respond "It will rewrite your DNA to make you the final evolution of life".

If you say that's all good, then ...

Modifié par ArchDuck, 03 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[daecath]

I don't think it's necessarily immoral, I just think it's stupid as ****. Jump into beam of energy, create a wave of energy that creates complex matter like organic tissue and circuitry in every living being and/or alters dna to be a combination of organic and "synthetic dna".

WTF? Where did they possibly come up with this (actually, I already know, it was "borrowed" from another game), and what made them think that putting it in would be a good idea? More than anything else in the game and the ending in particular, this just doesn't fit.

[frylock23]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Konfined wrote...

No, but they allow you to forcibly change every being in the galaxy though, right?  Joker's skin doesn't turn grey, he also still suffers from Brittle Bone too.

That's funny. First of all, I don't remember synthesis ever entailing a cure to all disease in the galaxy. But seeing as he still suffers from the disease afterwards, that pretty much reinforces the point that not all indivuality is lost. Vrolik's syndrome, being as it is a hereditary disease (iirc), is genetic. So if he's maintained that in the end, then it's unlikely that he's lost any of his prior individual traits.

BOOM! There goes another oft-used synthesis gripe, out the window.

Well, if it doesn't get rid of those things, then what's the point. It seems like an empty violation of everyone for no discernible gain. It can't ensure lasting peace, it doesn't get rid of disease, so what point does it have? It seems you've shot your own advantages in the foot.

I'm hardly going to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy just to make it all glow green.  

The point is, if he upgrade to intelligence levels on the level of synthetics, we will be able to research and advance even faster than other. That advancement and research may lead, but isn't limited to, cures to diseases and peaceful diplomacy.

Funny how the tides turn. First it was terrible because it stripped us of our individuality. When that complaint no longer works, why hasn't it changed us MOAR????

Where is that proof that it makes us superintelligent again? I don't recall Star Brat saying anything like only that it combines synthetic and organic into a new DNA or some sort so that there are no more pure organics or synthetics.

And, uh, diplomacy isn't about research. It's about conflict resolution. If we still need diplomacy, it means there will still be conflicts. If there are still conflicts, there will still be differences and if there are still differences, there will still be wars. And, funny thing, if we can still wage war, we can still wipe each other out.

It seems to me that synthesis solves nothing. But hey, if you're right, we'll be even better at killing each other.

Modifié par frylock23, 03 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[Norrax]

op is obvious troll

[ArchDuck]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

What exactly are you nay-sayers trying to argue here, exactly? I don't get it.

You rail this choice for making a great drastic change, but then insist that no change took place because none are apparent, aside from the glowing green on Joker's skin.

Come back to me when you get it sorted out.

I believe what people, myself included, are trying to say is that there is no way of knowing what this "synthesis" does. It doesn't have any obvious improvements, it is based off of junk science (even for the Mass Effect universe), it does cause harm, doesn't take out the enemy that we have been fighting since day one and it is ethically unsound.

[mashintao]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Then be sure to back it up... don't let that evil syntheic bastard, alias LEGION, upload the Reaper code to give all his people intelligence. He's forcing that choice on all his people, against their will!!! Who gave him the right to decide what's best for everyone? Give him what he deserves: a knife in the back, and then shoot him like the mad dog that he is.



There is another way, however. Join the enlightened side. And then, you might just be able to broker peace in that war. 

This assumes that the Synthesis ending is the same thing as the Reaper upgrading Legion performs.

Wrong.

Synthesis = altering all life to become organic/synthetic cyborg beings.
Geth reaper upgrade = upgrading Geth programming via network to give them individual sentience instead of a singular 'consensus'... or as the game puts it:  "Each geth unit would be a true intelligence.  We would be alive."

Your argument is unenlighteneed.

Modifié par mashintao, 03 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[frylock23]

daecath wrote...

I don't think it's necessarily immoral, I just think it's stupid as ****. Jump into beam of energy, create a wave of energy that creates complex matter like organic tissue and circuitry in every living being and/or alters dna to be a combination of organic and "synthetic dna".

WTF? Where did they possibly come up with this (actually, I already know, it was "borrowed" from another game), and what made them think that putting it in would be a good idea? More than anything else in the game and the ending in particular, this just doesn't fit.

It's not immoral if you're choosing to do it to yourself or to a group of like minded individuals who can all give their ready consent.

The immorality comes in when you do it to everyone everywhere across the board without their consent, and then when you go further and do it to all organic life everywhere right down to the most basic bits of DNA and RNA. And then when you go further and alter synthetics like EDI and the entire Geth race. All in a flash without their consent or knowledge. And all of this without any real idea what you're actually going to be doing to any of them beyond some vague idea of "merging."

Would you be pleased at the idea of someone taking that kind of gamble with your life when there were other options?

[His Name was HYR!!]

Konfined wrote...

I say no tangible benefit, because you've decided to rewrite the DNA of the entire galaxy (I always feel the need to stress that) based on the whims of an individual who can almost categorically be classified as the enemy.  If you're going to take the word of an enemy, then there had best be a good goddamn reason other than green wires sticking out of my goddamn arms.

My reason has been made clear from the beginning: to upgrade organic life, to give them new capabilities they did not before that will improve our lives. Catalyst reiterates this point when explaining the choice: synthetics are already a part of you. Shepard was brought back from the dead with the cybernetics in him, that same tech was used by Cerberus to improve the lethality of their armies to levels above those of Alliance marines. Not to mention the point of this thread, the geth using Reaper upgrades to become individuals w/ intelligence.

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.

[Reorte]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.

Yeah, if you don't have a problem with forcing a change on everyone at a very fundamental level. Imagine being forced to undergo a sex change. Well, this is a more fundamental change than that. What the benefits are is irrelevent to the morality/

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Konfined wrote...

I say no tangible benefit, because you've decided to rewrite the DNA of the entire galaxy (I always feel the need to stress that) based on the whims of an individual who can almost categorically be classified as the enemy.  If you're going to take the word of an enemy, then there had best be a good goddamn reason other than green wires sticking out of my goddamn arms.

My reason has been made clear from the beginning: to upgrade organic life, to give them new capabilities they did not before that will improve our lives. Catalyst reiterates this point when explaining the choice: synthetics are already a part of you. Shepard was brought back from the dead with the cybernetics in him, that same tech was used by Cerberus to improve the lethality of their armies to levels above those of Alliance marines. Not to mention the point of this thread, the geth using Reaper upgrades to become individuals w/ intelligence.

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.

The geth improvements had nothing to do with anything organic. The reapers call what they do as helping organics "ascend". Sound familiar?

[Konfined]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Konfined wrote...

I say no tangible benefit, because you've decided to rewrite the DNA of the entire galaxy (I always feel the need to stress that) based on the whims of an individual who can almost categorically be classified as the enemy.  If you're going to take the word of an enemy, then there had best be a good goddamn reason other than green wires sticking out of my goddamn arms.

My reason has been made clear from the beginning: to upgrade organic life, to give them new capabilities they did not before that will improve our lives. Catalyst reiterates this point when explaining the choice: synthetics are already a part of you. Shepard was brought back from the dead with the cybernetics in him, that same tech was used by Cerberus to improve the lethality of their armies to levels above those of Alliance marines. Not to mention the point of this thread, the geth using Reaper upgrades to become individuals w/ intelligence.

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.

So, once again, you're making things up as you go along.  There is absolutely no point in trying to arguing against someone's head canon. 

[Taboo]

frylock23 wrote...

daecath wrote...

I don't think it's necessarily immoral, I just think it's stupid as ****. Jump into beam of energy, create a wave of energy that creates complex matter like organic tissue and circuitry in every living being and/or alters dna to be a combination of organic and "synthetic dna".

WTF? Where did they possibly come up with this (actually, I already know, it was "borrowed" from another game), and what made them think that putting it in would be a good idea? More than anything else in the game and the ending in particular, this just doesn't fit.

It's not immoral if you're choosing to do it to yourself or to a group of like minded individuals who can all give their ready consent.

The immorality comes in when you do it to everyone everywhere across the board without their consent, and then when you go further and do it to all organic life everywhere right down to the most basic bits of DNA and RNA. And then when you go further and alter synthetics like EDI and the entire Geth race. All in a flash without their consent or knowledge. And all of this without any real idea what you're actually going to be doing to any of them beyond some vague idea of "merging."

Would you be pleased at the idea of someone taking that kind of gamble with your life when there were other options?

BINGO!

[His Name was HYR!!]

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
The point is, if he upgrade to intelligence levels on the level of synthetics, we will be able to research and advance even faster than other. That advancement and research may lead, but isn't limited to, cures to diseases and peaceful diplomacy.

Who says the synthesis upgrades intelligence? If it doesn't improve physical ailments, why assume it improves intelligence?

What exactly are you nay-sayers trying to argue here, exactly? I don't get it.

You rail this choice for making a great drastic change, but then insist that no change took place because none are apparent, aside from the glowing green on Joker's skin.

Come back to me when you get it sorted out.

I did no such thing, just asking you why you think synthesis upgraded intelligence if it doesn't even affect physical maladies.  You're straw-manning because you have nothing better to say?

It's a guess, part of the reason I chose it because of the potential I saw in doing so. I wish I could've seen some actual consequence past glowing green patterns in Joker's skin, but I'm not writing it off as a total failure because of incompetant writing, it's open for interpretation. A little too open, unfortunately. More reason to bring on the EC.

[Reorte]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

It's a guess, part of the reason I chose it because of the potential I saw in doing so. I wish I could've seen some actual consequence past glowing green patterns in Joker's skin, but I'm not writing it off as a total failure because of incompetant writing, it's open for interpretation. A little too open, unfortunately. More reason to bring on the EC.

I see the potential of being able to artificially create a child from the DNA of any two people, thus removing the need for the normal reproductive process. And I can meddle with someone to turn them into some sort of heamaphrodite, with the advantages of both genders (women live longer, men are physically stronger etc.) And because I can see potential benefits to the human race in doing that I'm going to force it on everyone whether they like it or not.

If that was possible I sincerely hope that you'd be looking to have me locked up in the loony bin.

[fr33stylez]

fr33stylez wrote...

Well, if 'Synthesis' doesn't cause everyone to be the same, why exactly would it result in everlasting peace between this apparent war between organics and synthetics? Or organics vs. organics for that matter.

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...
I believe what people, myself included, are trying to say is that there is no way of knowing what this "synthesis" does. It doesn't have any obvious improvements, it is based off of junk science (even for the Mass Effect universe), it does cause harm, doesn't take out the enemy that we have been fighting since day one and it is ethically unsound.

ArchDuck wrote...

Sythesis is ethically unsound.

Unless you or the catalyst has precognition (can see the future with 100% accuracy) then you don't know if these changes are for better or worse.

Is it OK to gamble the future of all life (that we know of) on information presented by a being that does not understand DNA or evolution? And on top of that, do it without asking or informing people it will happen?

Can you even imagine the panic that would take place in self aware and other species? Whole species would die out because their mates look sick and are unsuitable as far as their instincts (from evolution) are telling them. Not to mention the rioting and mass suicides that would happen. How many beings would kill themselves because they thought they were being turned into husks?

If you think it is fine then you wouldn't mind someone walking up to you tomorrow and jabbing you in the arm with a syringe full of a unknown retrovirus? Oh and when you ask what the hell they are doing they respond "It will rewrite your DNA to make you the final evolution of life".

If you say that's all good, then ...

I would love to hear a pro-sythesis counter to this.

The only one I have heard so far is that the green wave also rewrites the beings it changes so that they understand said changes or that it controls them until they 'calm down' so they don't hurt themselves or others.

But then anyone presenting that quickly ignores it or retracts it to avoid the logical next question of "if it changes the person's mind then doesn't it have the potential to be advanced indoctrination or make them not themselves?".

Modifié par ArchDuck, 03 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[Gen Petitt]

Idiot it is a Hitler ending because you are forcing unwanted change to the populace I would not want to wake up and realize I am now half synthetic I will kill myself and many people would and even if it only changes genetic structure your forcing the change on them it should be left to individual choice not one person decides the fate of all

[Redwing198403]

The series repeatedly shows that using reaper tech to advance technologically and forcing evolution on species before they are ready like the krogan is not a good thing. Synthesis is another "cheat" just like using the relays. The series destroys the relays to get rid of the reaper influence. These achievements should be made on our own and it will be difficult and take time. I am going to bend a quote from Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park I see synthesis as "rape of the natural world." Its just my opinion of the ending and you are entitled to yours... That is just why I won't pick synthesis.

[frylock23]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Konfined wrote...

I say no tangible benefit, because you've decided to rewrite the DNA of the entire galaxy (I always feel the need to stress that) based on the whims of an individual who can almost categorically be classified as the enemy.  If you're going to take the word of an enemy, then there had best be a good goddamn reason other than green wires sticking out of my goddamn arms.

My reason has been made clear from the beginning: to upgrade organic life, to give them new capabilities they did not before that will improve our lives. Catalyst reiterates this point when explaining the choice: synthetics are already a part of you. Shepard was brought back from the dead with the cybernetics in him, that same tech was used by Cerberus to improve the lethality of their armies to levels above those of Alliance marines. Not to mention the point of this thread, the geth using Reaper upgrades to become individuals w/ intelligence.

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone at Sanctuary was just peachy, keen fine with being ascended in those Cerberus experiments. All those husks looked positively ecstatic to me, and I'll bet those Cerberus troopers are a real hoot in their off duty hours.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You  assume that there was a grand master plan in all of this. You ASSUME that was the intention. You ASSUME that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson understood what they were doing.

The "master plan" was merely to provide endings that would get the fans debating; to make none of them be the clear-cut, kneejerk choice that any Shepard would go for.

They dropped the ball in two key areas:
- explaining the parameters surrounding the decision and their impact on the galaxy going forward
(clarification) 
- Detailing Shepard's fate, that of the LI and squad, and the races of the galaxy in a way that acknowledges the choices we made (closure.)
 

Taboo-XX wrote... 
The ending is poorly written and people will use whatever they can to justify it. The pro-enders go to the exact same lengths the Anti-enders do to prove something.

None of the "pro-enders" are happy with what we got. Nobody is. The difference between pro- and anti-enders is that clarification+closure will give the former group satisfaction, while the latter group wants the whole sequence scrapped and redone. Which isn't happening.

Taboo-XX wrote...  
We've all been driven crazy by this nonsense.

If that's truly the case for you, may I suggest taking a break from the forums for awhile? :innocent:

[daecath]

frylock23 wrote...

daecath wrote...

I don't think it's necessarily immoral, I just think it's stupid as ****. Jump into beam of energy, create a wave of energy that creates complex matter like organic tissue and circuitry in every living being and/or alters dna to be a combination of organic and "synthetic dna".

WTF? Where did they possibly come up with this (actually, I already know, it was "borrowed" from another game), and what made them think that putting it in would be a good idea? More than anything else in the game and the ending in particular, this just doesn't fit.

It's not immoral if you're choosing to do it to yourself or to a group of like minded individuals who can all give their ready consent.

The immorality comes in when you do it to everyone everywhere across the board without their consent, and then when you go further and do it to all organic life everywhere right down to the most basic bits of DNA and RNA. And then when you go further and alter synthetics like EDI and the entire Geth race. All in a flash without their consent or knowledge. And all of this without any real idea what you're actually going to be doing to any of them beyond some vague idea of "merging."

Would you be pleased at the idea of someone taking that kind of gamble with your life when there were other options?

Was it immoral to release the genophage cure into the air? If someone had a cure for cancer that could be released into the water supply, would that be immoral? Synthesis is presented as a cure to a problem that plagues all life. That's why I say it's not necessarily immoral. We simply don't know what it really is at a fundamental level, other than glowing eyes. It may be immoral, or it may not. All we do know is that it's ****ing stupid.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You  assume that there was a grand master plan in all of this. You ASSUME that was the intention. You ASSUME that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson understood what they were doing.

The "master plan" was merely to provide endings that would get the fans debating; to make none of them be the clear-cut, kneejerk choice that any Shepard would go for.

They dropped the ball in two key areas:
- explaining the parameters surrounding the decision and their impact on the galaxy going forward
(clarification) 
- Detailing Shepard's fate, that of the LI and squad, and the races of the galaxy in a way that acknowledges the choices we made (closure.)
 

Taboo-XX wrote... 
The ending is poorly written and people will use whatever they can to justify it. The pro-enders go to the exact same lengths the Anti-enders do to prove something.

None of the "pro-enders" are happy with what we got. Nobody is. The difference between pro- and anti-enders is that clarification+closure will give the former group satisfaction, while the latter group wants the whole sequence scrapped and redone. Which isn't happening.

Taboo-XX wrote...  
We've all been driven crazy by this nonsense.

If that's truly the case for you, may I suggest taking a break from the forums for awhile? :innocent:

I don't want the ending scrapped. I'm fine with clarification and closure. I believe it can be fixed. I've tried to make that abundantly clear. The problem is the behavior on both sides. I do it and you do it. That type of behavior has driven us all crazy.

I'm waiting for a call from HBO so I have time. I'm waiting for a call for a job.

I have time. 

[xsdob]

An English Gamer wrote...

Legion had the choice of giving his people individuality or letting them all die...

Shepard had the choice of turning everyone into hybrids or letting them all die.....

Modifié par xsdob, 03 mai 2012 - 11:41 .

[ArchDuck]

daecath wrote...

Was it immoral to release the genophage cure into the air? If someone had a cure for cancer that could be released into the water supply, would that be immoral? Synthesis is presented as a cure to a problem that plagues all life. That's why I say it's not necessarily immoral. We simply don't know what it really is at a fundamental level, other than glowing eyes. It may be immoral, or it may not. All we do know is that it's ****ing stupid.

Please educate me. What problem is that? Really I would like to know. Is it the Reapers?