233 réponses à ce sujet

[ArchDuck]

xsdob wrote...

An English Gamer wrote...

Legion had the choice of giving his people individuality or letting them all die...

Shepard had the choice of turning everyone into hybrids or letting them all die.....

Or the other two options. Or trying it conventionally. Or death before surrender.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 03 mai 2012 - 11:43 .

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't want the ending scrapped. I'm fine with clarification and closure. I believe it can be fixed. I've tried to make that abundantly clear. The problem is the behavior on both sides. I do it and you do it. That type of behavior has driven us all crazy.

If I've been overly abrasive, then I apologize. But not for choosing Synthesis.

Now. What other questions have I not answered from you?

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't want the ending scrapped. I'm fine with clarification and closure. I believe it can be fixed. I've tried to make that abundantly clear. The problem is the behavior on both sides. I do it and you do it. That type of behavior has driven us all crazy.

If I've been overly abrasive, then I apologize. But not for choosing Synthesis.

Now. What other questions have I not answered from you?

Let's just......let it go.

We disagree about something that we'll never be able to agree on.

Far better to forgive and forget.

[daecath]

ArchDuck wrote...

daecath wrote...

Was it immoral to release the genophage cure into the air? If someone had a cure for cancer that could be released into the water supply, would that be immoral? Synthesis is presented as a cure to a problem that plagues all life. That's why I say it's not necessarily immoral. We simply don't know what it really is at a fundamental level, other than glowing eyes. It may be immoral, or it may not. All we do know is that it's ****ing stupid.

Please educate me. What problem is that? Really I would like to know. Is it the Reapers?

The problem is the premise of "the created will always turn on their creators". I didn't say that it was a cure, since I think the premise of the ending is just as ****ing stupid as the synthesis option (since the two are inextricably linked), but that's the way that the writers presented it.

[antares_sublight]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't want the ending scrapped. I'm fine with clarification and closure. I believe it can be fixed. I've tried to make that abundantly clear. The problem is the behavior on both sides. I do it and you do it. That type of behavior has driven us all crazy.

If I've been overly abrasive, then I apologize. But not for choosing Synthesis.

Now. What other questions have I not answered from you?

Let's just......let it go.

We disagree about something that we'll never be able to agree on.

Far better to forgive and forget.

Even better if we just synthesize the both of you.

Synthctory!

[Taboo]

antares_sublight wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't want the ending scrapped. I'm fine with clarification and closure. I believe it can be fixed. I've tried to make that abundantly clear. The problem is the behavior on both sides. I do it and you do it. That type of behavior has driven us all crazy.

If I've been overly abrasive, then I apologize. But not for choosing Synthesis.

Now. What other questions have I not answered from you?

Let's just......let it go.

We disagree about something that we'll never be able to agree on.

Far better to forgive and forget.

Even better if we just synthesize the both of you.

Synthctory!

A frog and a chicken?

[eddieoctane]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Does he specify whether its really total consensus, or general consensus?

Legion says something to the effect that organics impose consensus through democracy or another means, while the Geth achieve consensus by sharing data across all runtimes. I don't have the exact audio file, but it strongly implies that Geth are unified int heir actions. This is also why the heretics splitting from the Consensus was so unusual.

[pharsti]

Well, its weird, people see synthesis as this "great evil" and comment about destroy being "genocide"...

But on the course of ME i remember being able to wipe the rachni, i remember being able to decide if i should "rewrite" the geth heretics or kill them (yay mind control XD?), i remember being able to crush most hopes for the future of the krogan, hell, i could even let the toasters wipe the quarians (a point of view that many seem to defend for some reason).

And yet, everyone ignores all of that and just say that synthesis is evil... pfftt.... i did more evil things in the course of my journey than that >_>.....

[xsdob]

ArchDuck wrote...

xsdob wrote...

An English Gamer wrote...

Legion had the choice of giving his people individuality or letting them all die...

Shepard had the choice of turning everyone into hybrids or letting them all die.....

Or the other two options. Or trying it conventionally. Or death before surrender.

The reapers were winning easily, that much is apparent from any cutscene. The ground forces are being decimated, the orbital forces seemed to be losing 2 ships for every 1 reaper damaged. They would have lasted for a while but would lose eventually, the repaers don't seem to use ammunition and don't need them to wrap around a ship and crush it; the organics need ammo or they become sitting ducks.

And you can already choose death, you just wait until the 'crucible is destroyed' game over sign comes on and than you choose to not continue, conventional fight and death before surrender all rolled into one.

Modifié par xsdob, 04 mai 2012 - 12:36 .

[DJBare]

Synthesis, get your skin upgrade here, free with every indoctrination.

[frylock23]

pharsti wrote...

Well, its weird, people see synthesis as this "great evil" and comment about destroy being "genocide"...

But on the course of ME i remember being able to wipe the rachni, i remember being able to decide if i should "rewrite" the geth heretics or kill them (yay mind control XD?), i remember being able to crush most hopes for the future of the krogan, hell, i could even let the toasters wipe the quarians (a point of view that many seem to defend for some reason).

And yet, everyone ignores all of that and just say that synthesis is evil... pfftt.... i did more evil things in the course of my journey than that >_>.....

Except not all of us did. The worst thing I remember doing on most of my playthroughs is the Alpha Relay and even then I tried to warn the Batarians. It's not my fault I wasn't allowed to.

And I do think that destroying all organic life to make it fundamentally and forever "other" is a pretty evil thing particularly when you are presented with two other options that don't require you to do that.

[MakeMineMako]

The Angry One wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

As I recall, he had no problem killing off the heretics either. Just under half of his programs supported it.

So much for allowing them to self-determinate.

Yes, but that particular dialog is on rewriting them.

Yeah I think the freedom to self-determinate ends when they're trying to kill you. Or in the Heretic's case, worse, trying to make all Geth worship the Reapers.

Well, there was some hint that the division between the two might have led to civil war.

From the Geth Spitfire Codex Entry:


"The weapon's stopping power has garnered the attention of both Alliance and quarian
intelligence, who theorize that the Spitfire may have been designed to
destroy other geth. Enough Spitfires have been found in the field to
suggest that the weapon is out of the prototyping stage, and that a
schism among synthetics may have forced them into production."


I think the plans of the Heretics to subvert the rest of the Geth, with that virus in ME2, was leading up to something nasty.

[soapmode]

The Synthesis ending always looked to me like an attempt to shift into a new paradigm, where ideological distinction between organics and synthetics was no longer possible (and thus racial conflict along with it). Unfortunately it fails to describe the new paradigm, and so instead we're forced to interpret the 'green' ending through the values of the old: that is, Shepard's apparent choice to forcibly convert all organics into cyborgs.

It's a great pity, because the seeds for the real paradigm shift are scattered throughout the ME series, whereby Shepard learns that synthetics are just as capable of self-determinacy and moral agency. What really needed to be discarded at the end was the mystical idea that organics are special.

[Draining Dragon]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

He's forcing that choice on all his people, against their will!!!

His people were incapable of making individual choices beforehand. Derp.

[frylock23]

soapmode wrote...

The Synthesis ending always looked to me like an attempt to shift into a new paradigm, where ideological distinction between organics and synthetics was no longer possible (and thus racial conflict along with it). Unfortunately it fails to describe the new paradigm, and so instead we're forced to interpret the 'green' ending through the values of the old: that is, Shepard's apparent choice to forcibly convert all organics into cyborgs.

It's a great pity, because the seeds for the real paradigm shift are scattered throughout the ME series, whereby Shepard learns that synthetics are just as capable of self-determinacy and moral agency. What really needed to be discarded at the end was the mystical idea that organics are special.

Yes, and because we saw that synthestics are capable of self-determinacy and moral agency, we learned that we can treat them as just others and not as "alien" or "less than" but as equals. I sort of thought that was the point; not that we somehow lost our need to be organic or human which is what you seem to think.

Shepard was clear that she wasn't going to sacrifice the soul of her species, and to me that includes our humanity which seems to be tied up in our genetic heritage as much as everything else we are. 

[soapmode]

frylock23 wrote...

Yes, and because we saw that synthestics are capable of self-determinacy and moral agency, we learned that we can treat them as just others and not as "alien" or "less than" but as equals. I sort of thought that was the point; not that we somehow lost our need to be organic or human which is what you seem to think.

No, that's not what I think. It's more a case of humanity growing up at the end, and discarding the idea that they possess something special that synthetics do not. Compare how the West viewed Easterners ('Celestials') in the 19th century, as soulless pseudohumans. That too is a vile idea we've outgrown.

Modifié par soapmode, 04 mai 2012 - 01:15 .

[pharsti]

frylock23 wrote...

pharsti wrote...

Well, its weird, people see synthesis as this "great evil" and comment about destroy being "genocide"...

But on the course of ME i remember being able to wipe the rachni, i remember being able to decide if i should "rewrite" the geth heretics or kill them (yay mind control XD?), i remember being able to crush most hopes for the future of the krogan, hell, i could even let the toasters wipe the quarians (a point of view that many seem to defend for some reason).

And yet, everyone ignores all of that and just say that synthesis is evil... pfftt.... i did more evil things in the course of my journey than that >_>.....

Except not all of us did. The worst thing I remember doing on most of my playthroughs is the Alpha Relay and even then I tried to warn the Batarians. It's not my fault I wasn't allowed to.

And I do think that destroying all organic life to make it fundamentally and forever "other" is a pretty evil thing particularly when you are presented with two other options that don't require you to do that.

Im not saying its not evil per se, it depends on how you view it, i just find it weird that people are so hung up on it when, during the course of the 3 games, you could do some pretty questionable things, with some of them being worse if you ask me.

Mind you, i dont see synthesis as half as evil as so many, my paragon Shepard (well... she was the only one i played the game with seeing as to how theres no reason to play it again with these endings >_>) chose it in a heartbeat. Besides, only choice i cant see myself doing is control anyway.

[Gen Petitt]

Draining Dragon wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

He's forcing that choice on all his people, against their will!!!

His people were incapable of making individual choices beforehand. Derp.

You just admitted to being Hitler great job

[FatalX7.0]

What does Synthesis do to my fruits and vegetables?

[Sisterofshane]

Gen Petitt wrote...

Draining Dragon wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

He's forcing that choice on all his people, against their will!!!

His people were incapable of making individual choices beforehand. Derp.

You just admitted to being Hitler great job

NO, he just pointed out that the Geth have never made a decision that didn't involve at least part of the collective.

In fact, before the Reaper code a singular geth probably doesn't have any more intelligence then the toasters that people here like to compare them to.

You can't violate individuality and free will when there is no individual, and everything is goveerned by the consensus of the many

[Gen Petitt]

^^ what he said was that sinse the geth could not do it as an individual the decision was forced on them that is like saying the Jews could not change so they were forced into death camps

[Gen Petitt]

 And secondly I thought he was trying synthesis ending so I threw in my two cents because last time I checked this was the synthesis discussion thread not the Leigon thread

Modifié par Gen Petitt, 04 mai 2012 - 01:52 .

[alienatedflea]

An English Gamer wrote...

Legion had the choice of giving his people individuality or letting them all die...

All I hear from you is justification...that still makes you a hypocrite for b!tching about synthesis

[antares_sublight]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

What does Synthesis do to my fruits and vegetables?

They're no longer organic.

*ba-dum*

[Wolven_Soul]

I think that your forgetting that Legion can ask for a consensus for all of the other programs that he is connected to.  Therefore, he likely has the agreement of most, if not all, of the Geth to go ahead and make the upgrades.