233 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolven_Soul]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Legion is networked into all other geth. They're a hive mind. When he made that decision, it was a decision decided by ALL geth. He didn't force it on anyone. They chose it together.

Shepard, with his organic brain and non-hive mind, has no such connection and ability to decide with everyone.

I still wanted to have words with Legion about using Reaper code in the first place but it has nothing to do with allegedly "forcing" it on his people.

Nope! He's only networked to around 1k programs, a very small total population of the geth.

And each of those are networked into a whole bunch more.

[Wolven_Soul]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Let's suppose Legion did try to network to other geth before deciding,

... are you saying that every single geth supported the idea? That not one opposed? There very well may have been dissenting opinions that were ultimately forced to change, not far-fetched to think it when we're talking about the same guy (Legion) who was saying in the last installment how geth should not accept gifts from the Old Machines and "build their own" future. And those like-minded geth made up 95% of their people.

So, odds are pretty high that he truly did "force" his opinion on the rest of them.

Do you really think that a synthetic intelligence is going to turn down upgrading their entire race?  Your trying to use organic logic with a synthetic race.  I do not think it is going out on a limb to say that there was not a single, solitary dissenting voice.  Especially since their choice was to accept the upgrade or die.

[MrFob]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Legion is networked into all other geth. They're a hive mind. When he made that decision, it was a decision decided by ALL geth. He didn't force it on anyone. They chose it together.

Shepard, with his organic brain and non-hive mind, has no such connection and ability to decide with everyone.

I still wanted to have words with Legion about using Reaper code in the first place but it has nothing to do with allegedly "forcing" it on his people.

Nope! He's only networked to around 1k programs, a very small total population of the geth.

And each of those are networked into a whole bunch more.

Yep, Legion was only isolated to ~1.5k programms when he wa isolated from the geth network either becuase he was too far away from comm buys or because he was blocked by EDI's firewalls.
When he is close enough, he is networked (which is why he can upload the code in the first place).

the two situations do not compare at all.

[His Name was HYR!!]

[quote]Norrax wrote...

op is obvious troll[/quote]

Thanks. Coming from the average BSN poster that's a compliment. It means that you have strong, thought-out opinions.


[quote]Reorte wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.
[/quote]
Yeah, if you don't have a problem with forcing a change on everyone at a very fundamental level. Imagine being forced to undergo a sex change. Well, this is a more fundamental change than that. What the benefits are is irrelevent to the morality/[/quote]


Late much? We just proved that people have not been drastically altered post-synthesis. Joker's old genetic composition is still intact - if his limping gives us any clue.

And, benefits... irrelevant to morality? People, in positions of importance, make decisions all the time that are unpopular/unwanted by those that are affected by it. Even when those things benefit said affected people. That's what being a leader is about. You make the decisions that are unpopular but the one that does the most good in the long run.


[quote]antares_sublight wrote...

The geth improvements had nothing to do with anything organic. The reapers call what they do as helping organics "ascend". Sound familiar? [/quote] 

Nope. But I can see why it would to you.

[quote]Konfined wrote...

[quote]HYR 2.0 wrote...

[quote]Konfined wrote...

I say no tangible benefit, because you've decided to rewrite the DNA of the entire galaxy (I always feel the need to stress that) based on the whims of an individual who can almost categorically be classified as the enemy.  If you're going to take the word of an enemy, then there had best be a good goddamn reason other than green wires sticking out of my goddamn arms.[/quote]

My reason has been made clear from the beginning: to upgrade organic life, to give them new capabilities they did not before that will improve our lives. Catalyst reiterates this point when explaining the choice: synthetics are already a part of you. Shepard was brought back from the dead with the cybernetics in him, that same tech was used by Cerberus to improve the lethality of their armies to levels above those of Alliance marines. Not to mention the point of this thread, the geth using Reaper upgrades to become individuals w/ intelligence.

So, there are some significant potential benefits in choosing this path.
[/quote]So, once again, you're making things up as you go along.  There is absolutely no point in trying to arguing against someone's head canon. [/quote] 

smh I never said any of those things happened, I merely stated reasons why I thought it was an advantageous route. That was what, uh... YOU asked me.

But you don't strike me as the "listening" type, so maybe it's for the best that you bow-out of this convo.


[quote]fr33stylez wrote...

[quote]fr33stylez wrote...

Well, if 'Synthesis' doesn't cause everyone to be the same, why exactly would it result in everlasting peace between this apparent war between organics and synthetics? Or organics vs. organics for that matter.[/quote][/quote] 

*reads "everlasting peace" and laughs*

[quote]ArchDuck wrote...

I would love to hear a pro-sythesis counter to this. 

The only one I have heard so far is that the green wave also rewrites the beings it changes so that they understand said changes or that it controls them until they 'calm down' so they don't hurt themselves or others. 

But then anyone presenting that quickly ignores it or retracts it to avoid the logical next question of "if it changes the person's mind then doesn't it have the potential to be advanced indoctrination or make them not themselves?".[/quote] 

Read these other responses I've been making, it pretty much answers the same questions you made.


[quote]Gen Petitt wrote...

Idiot it is a Hitler ending because you are forcing unwanted change to the populace I would not want to wake up and realize I am now half synthetic I will kill myself and many people would and even if it only changes genetic structure your forcing the change on them it should be left to individual choice not one person decides the fate of all[/quote] 

If only for synthesis, this dude would be able to write a coherent sentence. Grammar & Spell-Check. 


[quote]Redwing198403 wrote...

The series repeatedly shows that using reaper tech to advance technologically and forcing evolution on species before they are ready like the krogan is not a good thing. Synthesis is another "cheat" just like using the relays. The series destroys the relays to get rid of the reaper influence. These achievements should be made on our own and it will be difficult and take time. I am going to bend a quote from Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park I see synthesis as "rape of the natural world." Its just my opinion of the ending and you are entitled to yours... That is just why I won't pick synthesis.[/quote]

Last I checked, reaper-tech produced things like thanix cannon that we used against the Reapers to beat them. It also produced EDI. And plenty of other things that I can't recall right now.

This is not like uplifting the krogan. We've earned this change. We built the Crucible, we used the combined fleets of our entire galactic community to escort it succesfully to the Citadel even with a Reaper fleet in our path. Above all, we learned the truth: Shepard discovered the catalyst behind the Reapers. And now we've used the technology we've created toward an advancement in our society. Did we fully understand it before using? No, but a character from this very series notes that sometimes that's the way it goes: Admiral Hackett, on testing the A-bomb in WWII. 

[quote]frylock23 wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure everyone at Sanctuary was just peachy, keen fine with being ascended in those Cerberus experiments. All those husks looked positively ecstatic to me, and I'll bet those Cerberus troopers are a real hoot in their off duty hours. [/quote]

First of all, Sanctuary is not an example I ever brought up nor is it similar. As for Cerberus, obviously they were not responsible, but it's equally irresponsible to throw away useful tech and its potential benefits that could help people just because it hasn't always worked out perfectly. Few things do.

[Geneaux486]

antares_sublight wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
Synthesis turns Shepard into a fascist strongman, imposing his ideal of existential superiority on all races, ridding the galaxy of "inferior" pure organics and forbidding anyone anywhere in the galaxy live otherwise.

 Synthesis doesn't do anything like that.

Because... ?

Burden of proof is on you, not me.  Where does it say Shepard becomes a fascist strongman?  Where does it say he has ideals of existential superiority, let alone imposes them on all races?  Where does it say that "inferior" pure organics are "rid" from the galaxy?  It's this kind of headcannon, hyperbolic, worst-case-scenario bull**** that provides the jello-pudding foundation of the "Bioware owes us a brand new ending" crowd.  Not that I'm complaining, most of the time it is damn entertaining.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 02:14 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

I updated the OP.

[antares_sublight]

Geneaux486 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
Synthesis turns Shepard into a fascist strongman, imposing his ideal of existential superiority on all races, ridding the galaxy of "inferior" pure organics and forbidding anyone anywhere in the galaxy live otherwise.

 Synthesis doesn't do anything like that.

Because... ?

Burden of proof is on you, not me.  Where does it say Shepard becomes a fascist strongman?  Where does it say he has ideals of existential superiority, let alone imposes them on all races?  Where does it say that "inferior" pure organics are "rid" from the galaxy?  It's this kind of headcannon, hyperbolic, worst-case-scenario bull**** that provides the jello-pudding foundation of the "Bioware owes us a brand new ending" crowd.  Not that I'm complaining, most of the time it is damn entertaining.

Right there in my first quote! 

Synthesis is itself a rejection of pure organics, and taking that option "rids" the galaxy of all pure organics. This is self-evident. If Shepard takes this option, he's deciding what he thinks is best for everyone in the galaxy. (synthesis was my first playthrough option) and no one is allowed to live otherwise. Shepard becomes a fascist.

[Geneaux486]

antares_sublight wrote...
Synthesis is itself a rejection of pure organics, and taking that option "rids" the galaxy of all pure organics. This is self-evident. If Shepard takes this option, he's deciding what he thinks is best for everyone in the galaxy. (synthesis was my first playthrough option) and no one is allowed to live otherwise. Shepard becomes a fascist.

And again, you're adding your own headcannon into it.  What does synthesis do?  It strengthens organic DNA with synthetic mutations.  Does it "rid" the galaxy of anything?  No, everyone's still there.  Does it change the way they live?  We have no f**kin' clue.  And Shepard's motivations?  Up to the individual player.  So no, Shepard does not become a fascist.  That may be your interpretation of your own Shepard, but the way it is presented to us in game does not state or even imply such a thing.

[GethInfiltrat0r]

Pretty sure all of the geth have this thing called a "consensus" and they all were in agreement with becoming unique living individuals.

And I'm gonna go ahead and say Hitler and Urdnot Wrex are pretty much NOT the same at all. I must have missed that side mission where Wrex puts all the gay, jewish, black, etc krogan in internment camps and kills them....

While choosing synthesis may not seem bad to you personally, I highly doubt that every other individual in the galaxy feels the same way.

[Taboo]

Geneaux486 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
Synthesis is itself a rejection of pure organics, and taking that option "rids" the galaxy of all pure organics. This is self-evident. If Shepard takes this option, he's deciding what he thinks is best for everyone in the galaxy. (synthesis was my first playthrough option) and no one is allowed to live otherwise. Shepard becomes a fascist.

And again, you're adding your own headcannon into it.  What does synthesis do?  It strengthens organic DNA with synthetic mutations.  Does it "rid" the galaxy of anything?  No, everyone's still there.  Does it change the way they live?  We have no f**kin' clue.  And Shepard's motivations?  Up to the individual player.  So no, Shepard does not become a fascist.  That may be your interpretation of your own Shepard, but the way it is presented to us in game does not state or even imply such a thing.

The fascism doesn't come from Shepard.

We don't know anything, true, but the overtones are still there.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 mai 2012 - 02:42 .

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...
We don't know anything, true, but the overtones are still there.

No, they're not.  We're adding the overtones ourselves.

[antares_sublight]

Geneaux486 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
Synthesis is itself a rejection of pure organics, and taking that option "rids" the galaxy of all pure organics. This is self-evident. If Shepard takes this option, he's deciding what he thinks is best for everyone in the galaxy. (synthesis was my first playthrough option) and no one is allowed to live otherwise. Shepard becomes a fascist.

And again, you're adding your own headcannon into it.  What does synthesis do?  It strengthens organic DNA with synthetic mutations.  Does it "rid" the galaxy of anything?  No, everyone's still there.  Does it change the way they live?  We have no f**kin' clue.  And Shepard's motivations?  Up to the individual player.  So no, Shepard does not become a fascist.  That may be your interpretation of your own Shepard, but the way it is presented to us in game does not state or even imply such a thing.

So where are the pure organics after choosing synthesis? In my opinion, Shepard's choice of synthesis would be a fascist choice. He's imposing his decision for what is allowable life on the entire galaxy. Pure organics no longer exist and fundamental alterations of every being's very genetic makeup have been forced. 

Again, at the very least it's a stupidly foolhardy, naive move. You just met this Catalyst and after a handful of short, content-free sentences, you decide to change the DNA of every living soul in the galaxy without a clue of what it will do. Rolling the dice on the entire galaxy.

Edit: Also, it's similar to what reapers do, and the reapers are still around, and a lot more similar to you now.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 04 mai 2012 - 02:49 .

[EricHVela]

The error in the OP's statement re: Legion

The Geth had the upgraded code. Shepard took that away. Legion gave it back.

[Taboo]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
We don't know anything, true, but the overtones are still there.

No, they're not.  We're adding the overtones ourselves.

Yes, they are.

Brave New World was the inspiration for Synthesis. It says so in the final hours app.

Do you understand what that means?

Do you have any idea how foolish you look when you denfend this nonsense?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 mai 2012 - 02:51 .

[Geneaux486]

antares_sublight wrote...
So where are the pure organics after choosing synthesis?

 
They're clearly the same people they were before.  Aesthetics are somewhat different, but otherwise it's still them.

He's imposing his decision for what is allowable life on the entire galaxy. Pure organics no longer exist and fundamental alterations of every being's very genetic makeup have been forced.

He's got the fate of the galaxy in his hands and is tasked with making one of three devastating choices to stop the Reapers from harvesting everyone.  There's already no going back to the way things were at this point, and that's because of the Reapers, not Shepard. 

Again, at the very least it's a stupidly foolhardy, naive move. You just met this Catalyst and after a handful of short, content-free sentences, you decide to change the DNA of every living soul in the galaxy without a clue of what it will do. Rolling the dice on the entire galaxy.

On this we mostly agree.  Still, that's why you're given a choice as to whether or not you want to do it.

Edit: Also, it's similar to what reapers do, and the reapers are still around, and a lot more similar to you now.

The Reapers forsake individuality.  Synthesis, for all the harm it may have done, does not do this.

Yes, they are.

No they're not.  Not going by the game itself.

Brave New World was the inspiration for Synthesis. It says so in the final hours app.

And?  That doesn't make it identical, and it doesn't add overtones that weren't there previously.

Do you have any idea how foolish you look when you denfend this nonsense?

I understand that I may look foolish to you, and I also do not care. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 02:57 .

[frylock23]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
We don't know anything, true, but the overtones are still there.

No, they're not.  We're adding the overtones ourselves.

Yes, they are.

Brave New World was the inspiration for Synthesis. It says so in the final hours app.

Do you understand what that means?

Do you have any idea how foolish you look when you denfend this nonsense?

Does anybody actually read that or 1984 anymore? I actually find Brave New World to be more sinister because it takes similar themes to 1984 and slaps a happy coat of paint on them ... like synthesis.

[Taboo]

Foolish. What Huxley and Orwell tried to teach us was for naught because Walters and Hudson can't make a bloody inference.

You can't create a Utopia without taking away basic rights.

You have studied politics right?

You're ready for this fight?

[antares_sublight]

Geneaux486 wrote...
They're clearly the same people they were before.  Aesthetics are somewhat different, but otherwise it's still them.

A radical change to DNA of every living being is not "aesthetics"!

Geneaux486 wrote... 
The Reapers forsake individuality.  Synthesis, for all the harm it may have done, does not do this.

You said yourself no one knows what it does.

[Taboo]

antares_sublight wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
They're clearly the same people they were before.  Aesthetics are somewhat different, but otherwise it's still them.

A radical change to DNA of every living being is not "aesthetics"!

Geneaux486 wrote... 
The Reapers forsake individuality.  Synthesis, for all the harm it may have done, does not do this.

You said yourself no one knows what it does.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let him become tangled in the web he has spun.

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Foolish. What Huxley and Orwell tried to teach us was for naught because Walters and Hudson can't make a bloody inference.

You can't create a Utopia without taking away basic rights.

You have studied politics right?

You're ready for this fight?

This is starting to get pathetic.  I've yet to see a more undeserved sense of self-superiority in a videogame discussion than this.  The synthesis ending is a vague DNA mutation that ends the Reaper threat, after which we are told that Shepard becomes a legend.  There aren't any overtones presented to us in that ending other than the Reaper threat ending as Shepard dies.  Inspiration behind the initial idea doesn't mean dick when we're talking about what's in the game itself.

A radical change to DNA of every living being is not "aesthetics"!

As far as we know that's all that changed.  We aren't told anything else, aside from "All will be stronger" (how monstrous!).  Joker is clearly still Joker, EDI is still clearly EDI.

You said yourself no one knows what it does.

I refer you to my previous point.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let him become tangled in the web he has spun.

You sound like a jackass.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 03:11 .

[antares_sublight]

Geneaux486 wrote...

A radical change to DNA of every living being is not "aesthetics"!

As far as we know that's all that changed.  We aren't told anything else, aside from "All will be stronger" (how monstrous!).  Joker is clearly still Joker, EDI is still clearly EDI.

Talk about reading into the game... you have no way of knowing any of that "clearly".  And a fundamental change to your DNA is not something to be brushed aside with "just that? pfft". You are who you are because of your DNA. You've just "ascended" all life in the galaxy, the reapers thank you for doing their job for them. You've averted confronting the goal of the game's series.

[Geneaux486]

antares_sublight wrote...

Talk about reading into the game...

I cannot believe that this statement precedes this:

the reapers thank you for doing their job for them. You've averted confronting the goal of the game's series.

Headcannon.  Not stated in the game, not even implied.

We don't know clearly that Joker and EDI are stepping off the Normandy?  They're right there.  If you're an indoctrination theorist I can understand this sort of response, in which case I respectfully disagree with your predictions on the ending.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 03:17 .

[Taboo]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Foolish. What Huxley and Orwell tried to teach us was for naught because Walters and Hudson can't make a bloody inference.

You can't create a Utopia without taking away basic rights.

You have studied politics right?

You're ready for this fight?

This is starting to get pathetic.  I've yet to see a more undeserved sense of self-superiority in a videogame discussion than this.  The synthesis ending is a vague DNA mutation that ends the Reaper threat, after which we are told that Shepard becomes a legend.  There aren't any overtones presented to us in that ending other than the Reaper threat ending as Shepard dies.  Inspiration behind the initial idea doesn't mean dick when we're talking about what's in the game itself.

A radical change to DNA of every living being is not "aesthetics"!

As far as we know that's all that changed.  We aren't told anything else, aside from "All will be stronger" (how monstrous!).  Joker is clearly still Joker, EDI is still clearly EDI.

You said yourself no one knows what it does.

I refer you to my previous point.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let him become tangled in the web he has spun.

You sound like a jackass.

I am a jackass. A terribly pretentious one too. And yes the undertones are there when the Catalyst says there will be guaranteed peace becuase the mixing of DNA will remove the faults and cause them to not be afraid of one another.

<_<

[ShdwFox7]

This OP is completely missing the point.

In Legion's scenario, Geth are just different, even in the case of other synthetics. Geth basically make choices democratically. If 400 of 500 individual Geth programs say that merging with reaper tech is ok, then majority overrules and the go through with it. Otherwise, like the Legion loyalty mission in ME2, then they would continue to try and build 100% consensus. The fact that Legion can and does initiate  the merger in the first place in the ME3 mission would suggest that the Geth ultimately came upon an overall agreement to go through with it.

    Also bare in mind were talking about the Geth getting smarter. Even on a organic level, how many people do you know would say they wouldn't want to be smarter? None? Thought so. Why wouldn't the same thing occur with the Geth? Which leads me to my next point: even if Legion weren't connected to all the rest of the Geth programs out there (his own platform only holds so many Geth) then he could logically assume it would be in the best interest of all Geth to merge.

    Finally the Wrex thing is completely blown out of proportions. Wrex is a leader for his people but he certainly can't force them to do everything he wants them to do. If Wrex went too far the clans are completely open to scheming, planning, revolting, and/or assassinating him. Even his own clan has the option to usurp him if need be. The clans follow Wrex, because like the democratic Geth, the majority overrules the minority. Even Wrex himself said they follow him in ME2 because the other clans like what he's doing.

    Now the synthesis is a completely different matter entirely. Shepard is -truly- enforcing his will upon every race in the galaxy. Shepard didn't dial the geth up and say "hey you bros ok with this?". Shepard didn't go up to the krogan and say "hey guys I'm making you into half-machines. If you don't like it tough luck". If Shepard did, following the earlier example, the krogan would shoot Shepard on the spot for being insane. Additionally, this isn't a decision that Shepard could say "well logically everyone wants to be half machine, so I'll do it anyway". It's obvious from even these forums that a lot of people don't like this synthesis bull----.

    The best in-game example I can come up with, if you really wanted to go this route OP, is Shepard's decision about the Rachni queen in ME1. Consider it. Shepard made that decision without any real input from the rest of the galaxy. And look how that turned out anyway - if you killed her, the council's pissed that you committed genocide. If you let her go, the council is mad that you let a extremely dangerous alien loose.

[EricHVela]

Joker appears with green lines across his skin. Is Joker really still Joker?

I think it's far too soon to assume that Synthesis prevents the annihilation of organic life.

For one, it's a forced, artificial "evolution".

For two, evolution favors that which survives best. Organic survives worse without synthetic, but synthetic doesn't have a need for organic if Javik is correct about knowing one's origin and purpose. Evolution might simply discard the organic part of the matrix over the eons.