233 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...
And yes the undertones are there when the Catalyst says there will be guaranteed peace becuase the mixing of DNA will remove the faults and cause them to not be afraid of one another.

It's completely straightfoward.  What the Catalyst says comes to pass.  I'm not saying it's a perfect ending, I'm saying that the implications of fascism in the context of this specific video game ending are not factual.  That's certainly one impression I could see you getting from it, but to suggest that anyone who didn't get that impression somehow missed the point is false.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 03:22 .

[Taboo]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
And yes the undertones are there when the Catalyst says there will be guaranteed peace becuase the mixing of DNA will remove the faults and cause them to not be afraid of one another.

It's completely straightfoward.  What the Catalyst says comes to pass.  I'm not saying it's a perfect ending, I'm saying that the implications of fascism in the context of this specific video game ending are not factual.

Fascistic undertones are still there whether or not it is striaghtforward or not.

Can they be removed via clarification? Yes.

But only if Bioware tells me it doesn't remove undesirable traits.

I still won't like Synthesis though.

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Fascistic undertones are still there whether or not it is striaghtforward or not.

No, they're not.  At most I will agree that clarification will tell us one way or the other, but there is simply not enough information given to us about Synthesis for you to say the undertones are definetely there.

[Taboo]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Fascistic undertones are still there whether or not it is striaghtforward or not.

No, they're not.  At most I will agree that clarification will tell us one way or the other, but there is simply not enough information given to us about Synthesis for you to say the undertones are definetely there.

What the Catalyst suggests is a Utopia.

You can't achieve that without removing things from people. That's the point of Brave New World.

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...
What the Catalyst suggests is a Utopia.

You can't achieve that without removing things from people. That's the point of Brave New World.

What the Catalyst suggests is that altering the DNA will render the Reapers obsolete.  There's no guarantee of a utopian civilization, just an end to the pattern of war between organics and synthetics.  Inspiration or not, this game is not Brave New World.

[antares_sublight]

Geneaux486 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Talk about reading into the game...

I cannot believe that this statement precedes this:

the reapers thank you for doing their job for them. You've averted confronting the goal of the game's series.

Headcannon.  Not stated in the game, not even implied.

We don't know clearly that Joker and EDI are stepping off the Normandy?  They're right there.  If you're an indoctrination theorist I can understand this sort of response, in which case I respectfully disagree with your predictions on the ending.

Seriously?
What do the reapers do, and what did the Catalyst say they did? They "help organics ascend" by making them become part synthetic, part organic components of the reapers. The reapers synthesize the harvested ones with themselves.
What was Shepard's goal for the entire game except the last couple of minutes? Destroy the reapers. Choosing synthesis at the last moment means you've abandoned that and instead chosen something entirely new, unknown, risky, and remarkably similar to the "service" reapers perform.

As for Joker and EDI, well, it looks mostly like them, but their DNA is totally different and there is no way to know how identical they are to their previous pure organic or pure synthetic incarnations. That has nothing to do with IT.

[DJBare]

Synthesis in itself is not immoral, choosing it for the rest of the galaxy without their consent is, eugenics is never moral.

[Redwing198403]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Redwing198403 wrote...

The series repeatedly shows that using reaper tech to advance technologically and forcing evolution on species before they are ready like the krogan is not a good thing. Synthesis is another "cheat" just like using the relays. The series destroys the relays to get rid of the reaper influence. These achievements should be made on our own and it will be difficult and take time. I am going to bend a quote from Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park I see synthesis as "rape of the natural world." Its just my opinion of the ending and you are entitled to yours... That is just why I won't pick synthesis.

Last I checked, reaper-tech produced things like thanix cannon that we used against the Reapers to beat them. It also produced EDI. And plenty of other things that I can't recall right now.

This is not like uplifting the krogan. We've earned this change. We built the Crucible, we used the combined fleets of our entire galactic community to escort it succesfully to the Citadel even with a Reaper fleet in our path. Above all, we learned the truth: Shepard discovered the catalyst behind the Reapers. And now we've used the technology we've created toward an advancement in our society. Did we fully understand it before using? No, but a character from this very series notes that sometimes that's the way it goes: Admiral Hackett, on testing the A-bomb in WWII.

I don't believe we have earned it... I believe we have earned a future free of the Reaper influence.  We as a cycle didn't create the crucible we took what others had done without even knowing it's purpose.  No matter which ending you choose you still have to use the crucilble so it is the only way.  However I believe that evolution and technology have to be advanced without synthesis but rather let nature take it own course whether good or bad.  Again this just how I feel about it... 

Modifié par Redwing198403, 04 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[Geneaux486]

What do the reapers do, and what did the Catalyst say they did? They "help organics ascend" by making them become part synthetic, part organic components of the reapers. The reapers synthesize the harvested ones with themselves.

So you're actually going to compare synthetic mutation of organic DNA with the act of melting things alive and turning them into techno-organic monstrosities?

What was Shepard's goal for the entire game except the last couple of minutes? Destroy the reapers. Choosing synthesis at the last moment means you've abandoned that and instead chosen something entirely new, unknown, risky, and remarkably similar to the "service" reapers perform.

First of all, aside from the concept of combining synthetics and organics, there is nothing remotely similar to what the Reapers do. Yes, it's a risky decision to make, but it doesn't mean Shepard has abandoned anything. He's still stopping the Reapers, and he's doing it without sacrificing his or her synthetic allies. The fact is the Crucible was mostly an unknown, but deemed worth the risk long before the final mission was launched. Shepard was elected to activate it, and as Shepard you do what you think is best, but the point is that there is no wrong answer, or at least, no answer that's worse than the other two They're all moral dilemas.  In the case of synthesis, while the Reapers do cease their attack and all galactic life is strengthened, the weight of such a decision is arguably too much for one person to bear. 

As for Joker and EDI, well, it looks mostly like them, but their DNA is totally different and there is no way to know how identical they are to their previous pure organic or pure synthetic incarnations.

There's the fact that they behave in nearly the same way if they're not synthesized. Meta-gaming, I know, but necesarry in the face of headcannon.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[d-boy15]

if we put aside the fact that in synthasis you decide for eveyone without asking them.
synthesis is still gamble too much

we don't know how altering DNA can solve the conflict, we don't even know the reason why
synthatic and organic always end up in conflict. logic that starchild gave not valid enough
to convince many players to believe.

even if it work, the reapers still around out there and we don't know by blow up the citadel
starchild was gone or not. if he alive, who know when he got any idea. can we trust a guy
who hold a power of destruction like that? if he dead, who control the reapers now? with a
power like that how they can be trust? and if we speculate that by synthesize them all life
had no desire for war, only peace. that mean it's take away free will while if it's not change
them how can peace between synthetic and organic happen?

I don't think bioware are that stupid to give an highest ems ending to be a choice that turn
everyone to husk but the logic behind it is flaw and how they excute that idea is bad.

Edit: holy_hit wrong topic

Modifié par d-boy15, 04 mai 2012 - 03:52 .

[MrDavid]

allow me to finish the topic sentence...
then that's okay because you are entitled to your opinion.
Can we all just be friends now?

[MrFob]

What? The Wrex part is even more insane.
First, Legions racism quote applies.
Secondly, Listen to Wrex, he does NOT want to equalize all clans, he want to keep their unique trades and characteristics. He says, that's what makes the Krogan strong and defines them as a people.
Thirdly, the Krogan under his rule are self determined. They might not be entirely happy with everything (they are Krogan after all) but they do support him (as the mechanic says: if Wrex's plan doesn't cut it, he'll be torn to shreds and they'll see who comes up with the next best plan).
So, yeah, they are governed and not all of them are happy about it but they are still self determined. They don't like it, they can fight it like Krogan do. The synthesis os forced on everyone without the possibility of change or doing anything about it.

Ok, by now I have probably been ninjad to death, this pot lay in a forgotten window for about an hour or so.

[Exousia001]

 OP, you are an idoit. The Geth did not have individuality, that's now how they exist. They exist within a network of many minds gathering into one consensus. Legion's desire to upload the Reaper Code and give his kind true Artificial Intelligence is within the desires of ALL Geth! Like in ME2, they want to build their own future - their own Dyson Sphere that, if possible, becomes the core for Life.

The Synthesis ending is immoral because it forces ALL species to be genetically modified, including the Geth, whom they desire to not have their fates determind by anybody but themselves. Play ME2 and Legion will clearly states that they have no wish to intervene with any life nor being interferred. They want to build their own way - because that's what they define true freedom.

OP, you are an idoit.

[Geneaux486]

Exousia001 wrote...

 OP, you are an idoit. The Geth did not have individuality, that's now how they exist. They exist within a network of many minds gathering into one consensus. Legion's desire to upload the Reaper Code and give his kind true Artificial Intelligence is within the desires of ALL Geth! Like in ME2, they want to build their own future - their own Dyson Sphere that, if possible, becomes the core for Life.

The Synthesis ending is immoral because it forces ALL species to be genetically modified, including the Geth, whom they desire to not have their fates determind by anybody but themselves. Play ME2 and Legion will clearly states that they have no wish to intervene with any life nor being interferred. They want to build their own way - because that's what they define true freedom.

OP, you are an idoit.

And yet the Geth ultimately sought out Reaper tech.  Why?  Because of dire circumstances.  Same with the firing of the Crucible.  Everyone knew the risks, that it was an unknown, but deemed it necesarry.  Also if you're going to call someone an idiot, you should probably spell it correctly.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[eddieoctane]

Synthesis doesn't permanently do away with the organic/synthetic divide. New organic microbes can still form on some nascent garden world. A new AI can be built from raw materials. It doesn't solve the Reapers' "problem", it shifts it to a later generation. Control does the exact same thing, but on a quicker timescale. So when it doesn't solve the problem and forcibly alters every life form in the galaxy, I'm hard-pressed to see the morality in the choice. And if something has no moral backing, it is, by definition, an immoral act.

[soapmode]

eddieoctane wrote...
And if something has no moral backing, it is, by definition, an immoral act.

No, it's amoral.

[Exousia001]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Exousia001 wrote...

 OP, you are an idoit. The Geth did not have individuality, that's now how they exist. They exist within a network of many minds gathering into one consensus. Legion's desire to upload the Reaper Code and give his kind true Artificial Intelligence is within the desires of ALL Geth! Like in ME2, they want to build their own future - their own Dyson Sphere that, if possible, becomes the core for Life.

The Synthesis ending is immoral because it forces ALL species to be genetically modified, including the Geth, whom they desire to not have their fates determind by anybody but themselves. Play ME2 and Legion will clearly states that they have no wish to intervene with any life nor being interferred. They want to build their own way - because that's what they define true freedom.

OP, you are an idoit.

And yet the Geth ultimately sought out Reaper tech.  Why?  Because of dire circumstances.  Same with the firing of the Crucible.  Everyone knew the risks, that it was an unknown, but deemed it necesarry.  Also if you're going to call someone an idiot, you should probably spell it correctly.

They took such unknown risks because it is about their SURVIVAL! Same with depending on the Crucible. Surviving is the core instinct of all life, which the Geth also pursues. That's why they agreed on the Reapers offer and is willing to extract it even after in order to answer the question: "Does this unit have a soul?"

Survival and discovery of one self is in all parts of life - be that Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Human, hell even the Reapers.

I can't be any simple than that. I'm surprised that you are critisizing it like you don't understand - perhaps you didn't.

My point in that post was, did their intent HARM anybody? In this case no, because ALL Geth sought such desire within their consensus. 

But does Synthesis harm anybody? Of course, I'm sure the Krogan will have a hard time dealing with being modified after they just got the Genophage cured tries to reclaim their culture which was stripped from them. 

Modifié par Exousia001, 04 mai 2012 - 04:17 .

[Geneaux486]

Exousia001 wrote...

They took such unknown risks because it is about their SURVIVAL! Same with depending on the Crucible. Surviving is the core instinct of all life, which the Geth also pursues. That's why they agreed on the Reapers offer and is willing to extract it even after in order to answer the question: "Does this unit have a soul?"

Survival and discovery of one self is in all parts of life - be that Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Human, hell even the Reapers.

I can't be any simple than that. I'm surprised that you are critisizing it like you don't understand - perhaps you didn't.

You're basically elaborating on the point I just made.  Perhaps you didn't understand my point.

[Exousia001]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Exousia001 wrote...

They took such unknown risks because it is about their SURVIVAL! Same with depending on the Crucible. Surviving is the core instinct of all life, which the Geth also pursues. That's why they agreed on the Reapers offer and is willing to extract it even after in order to answer the question: "Does this unit have a soul?"

Survival and discovery of one self is in all parts of life - be that Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Human, hell even the Reapers.

I can't be any simple than that. I'm surprised that you are critisizing it like you don't understand - perhaps you didn't.

You're basically elaborating on the point I just made.  Perhaps you didn't understand my point.

Or you are just bad at English?  

'night

[Geneaux486]

Exousia001 wrote...
Or you are just bad at English?  

Yeah that must be it.

But does Synthesis harm anybody? Of course

Not a fact.  Also nice job sneaking that last paragraph in after I had already replied to you.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 04:22 .

[Scalabrine]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Then be sure to back it up... don't let that evil syntheic bastard, alias LEGION, upload the Reaper code to give all his people intelligence. He's forcing that choice on all his people, against their will!!! Who gave him the right to decide what's best for everyone? Give him what he deserves: a knife in the back, and then shoot him like the mad dog that he is.

*EDIT*

Also, your morality commands you to go back and replay ME1 and KILL URDNOT WREX! if you haven't already. Why, you ask? Because, did you not see his tyranny on Tuchanka in Mass Effect 2?? Look at what he's doing! He's forcing his people to do what HE wants, and what HE thinks is right for them! Like Fortack, who's genius is wasted on frivilous things. Like.. agricultural and medicinal improvements! And remember that grouchy mechanic. He speaks glowingly of Wreav, that he's a leader who respects tradition.

And worse yet, Wrex wants to unite the clans O.O ... he wants to take away the thing that makes them unique! And for what? His vision of them as a unified race. Gee, that sounds A LOT like Hitler **** Germany!!! Whoah, okay, I don't think I even need to go on at this point. If there's one thing that the BSN understands, it's the evil that is The Fuhrer. It is Godwin's LAW afterall, not Godwin's hypothesis.

So, support self-determinism! Long live URDNOT WREAV!!!!


There is another way, however. Join the enlightened, and you might just find a way to broker peace on Rannoch.

Didn't read it completely. But out of the small bits I read i hope you're trolling.

The wrex stuff is just idiotic. Same for the legion nonsense. Hitler didn't want to unify his race within itself he wanted to destroy everyone and submit everyone to german "superiority". Wrex wants the krogan to play nice and join the galactic community. He knows the krogan are stupid and need a leader like him who doesn't want war, war...the one thing that almost destroyed the Krogan. You're dumb logic fails here.

Legion basically gave life to the geth...can't see how the hell you can see that as a bad thing...******.

I'm usually an **** on the MP forums cause you have to be to survive, but man this is some stupid **** right here.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

What the Catalyst suggests is a Utopia.

You can't achieve that without removing things from people. That's the point of Brave New World.

1) Since you are an avid anti-synthesist I'm not going to blindly trust what you say. Screenshot from Final Hours app (including context of the statement) or it didn't happen.

2) The Catalyst cares about one conflict, and one conflict only - synthetics vs. organics. He promised no Utopia; he said "the cycle will end." No other conflict is prevented or solved. The reapers care nothing for organic wars, even seeking to engineer one between the turians and krogan through their indoctrinated servants (Cerberus.)

[DJBare]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

What the Catalyst suggests is a Utopia.

You can't achieve that without removing things from people. That's the point of Brave New World.

1) Since you are an avid anti-synthesist I'm not going to blindly trust what you say. Screenshot from Final Hours app (including context of the statement) or it didn't happen.

Just $2.99 and information becomes power, I do recommend it, very good background information from ME1 to ME3, I particurly enjoy the image used at the start of the chapter "That which is true"

[PsyrenY]

DJBare wrote...

Just $2.99 and information becomes power, I do recommend it, very good background information from ME1 to ME3, I particurly enjoy the image used at the start of the chapter "That which is true"

If they had an android version I'd gladly get it, but otherwise no. Anyway, I don't need the whole thing - just one screenshot backing up this claim (and providing context) will suffice. People post screens from the Datapad app all the time (romance stuff etc.) so this should be okay too.

[balance5050]

Optimystic_X wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Just $2.99 and information becomes power, I do recommend it, very good background information from ME1 to ME3, I particurly enjoy the image used at the start of the chapter "That which is true"

If they had an android version I'd gladly get it, but otherwise no. Anyway, I don't need the whole thing - just one screenshot backing up this claim (and providing context) will suffice. People post screens from the Datapad app all the time (romance stuff etc.) so this should be okay too.

Written by Mac Walters in early development, handed to Geoff Keighly in early summer, the "Brave New World" part is on the lower left. One theme of "A Brave New World" is using technology to control people.

 

Modifié par balance5050, 04 mai 2012 - 05:28 .