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Well Thought Out Balance Thread


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#1
Grimy Bunyip

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[quote]Details on DPS in this thread
I want to factor in human error when I calculate DPS.
I also don't want to have burst DPS of infinity for single shot weapons.

To do this I will account for 2 parameters:
Burst Loss - Time Lost each burst or reload cycle.
Refire Loss - Time added to min refire on non automatic weapons

Losses are currently set to the following values:
Burst Loss: 0.15 Seconds
Refire Loss: 0.04 Seconds

I will present DPS in the following Format:
DPS: 150.0 S / 200.0 R / 300.0 B / 400.0 C / 500.0 CB
150.0 S will mean 150 sustained DPS without any weapon bonuses
200.0 R will mean 200 sustained DPS with reload cancelling without any weapon bonuses
300.0 B will mean 300 burst DPS without any weapon bonuses
400.0 C will mean 400 sustained DPS with cloak and some weapon bonuses
500.0 C will mean 500 burst DPS with cloak and some weapon bonuses

Additionally, all DPS comparisons ignore powers like TC unless stated otherwise[/quote]

Weapon Changes
[quote] Sniper Rifles
M-29 Incisor
Recoil decreased from

M-97 Viper
Current DPS: 267.8 S / 288.7 R / 313.2 B / 662.3 C / 984.3 CB
New DPS: 311.9 S / 340.6 R / 375.2 B / 883 C / 1183.9 CB
Rate of Fire increased from 70 to 85
0.723x the Cloak DPS of the current N7 Valiant
Viper has a large magazine that is not put to good use due to its slow ish rate of fire.
But I don't want to increase the RoF to 100 or it would start stepping on the valiant's niche territory

Kishok Harpoon Gun
Make bleed damage increase with weapon mods, skills, headshots, and other bonuses
See Boss Headshot Section for more details.
These changes would make the kishok the best boss slayer sniper rifle yet again.

Krysae Sniper Rifle
Current DPS: 292.9 S / 374.8 R / 520.1 B / 1154.3 C / 1667.2 CB
New DPS: 292.9 S / 374.8 R / 520.1 B / 824.5 C / 1190.9 CB
Change the Krysae into an assault rifle
The krysae is only OP when combined with rank 6 TC sniper damage, making it an assault rifle changes that.
See Tactical Cloak Change for more details.
[/quote]

[quote] Submachine Guns
M-4 Shuriken
Current DPS: 331.8 S / 355.5 R / 382.9 B / 558.3 C / 632 CB
New DPS: 364.7 S / 390.8 R / 421 B / 613.8 C / 694.8 CB
Damage increased from [38.7-48.3] to [42.4-53.1], a 1.09x change
0.44x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane

M-12 Locust
Current DPS: 282.3 S / 319.2 R / 367.1 B / 574.2 C / 762.2 CB
New DPS: 423.5 S / 478.8 R / 550.6 B / 861.4 C / 1143.4 CB
Damage increased from [34.3-42.8] to [51.3-64.2], a 1.5x change
0.54x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane

M-9 Tempest
Current DPS: 474 S / 538.5 R / 623.2 B / 1016.7 C / 1299.9 CB
New DPS: 616.1 S / 699.9 R / 810 B / 1321.3 C / 1689.4 CB
Damage increased from [47.5-59.4] to [61.7-77.2], a 1.29x change
0.79x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane

M-25 Hornet
Current DPS: 504 S / 565.9 R / 645.1 B / 993.2 C / 1313.7 CB
New DPS: 654.7 S / 735.2 R / 838.1 B / 1290.3 C / 1706.6 CB
Damage increased from [53.7-67.2] to [69.8-87.3], a 1.29x change
0.83x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane

Geth Submachine Gun
Current DPS: 326.8 S / 372.2 R / 432.3 B / 650.8 C / 985.8 CB
New DPS: 587 S / 668.5 R / 776.3 B / 1168.9 C / 1770.5 CB
Damage increased from [16.1-20.1] to [28.8-36.1], a 1.79x change
0.76x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane

N7 Hurricane
Current DPS: 701.9 S / 883.4 R / 1191.6 B / 1496.6 C / 2667.8 CB
New DPS: 701.9 S / 883.4 R / 1191.6 B / 1496.6 C / 2667.8 CB
Damage decreased from [102.5-128.1] to [102.5-128.1], a 1x change
1x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane
If using cloak, N7 hurricane's cloak DPS is increased greatly by a heat sink or magazine. About a 1.5x increase
The DPS numbers above assume no heat sink or magazine though
[/quote]

[quote] Shotguns
M-23 Katana
Current DPS: 353.6 S / 397.4 R / 453.5 B / 790.7 C / 1018.8 CB
New DPS: 424.1 S / 476.6 R / 543.9 B / 948.3 C / 1221.8 CB
Damage increased from [48.1-60.2] to [57.7-72.2], a 1.19x change
0.69x the DPS of the current M-300 Claymore

M-22 Eviscerator
Current DPS: 353.4 S / 409.5 R / 486.6 B / 710.2 C / 1101 CB
New DPS: 423.9 S / 491.2 R / 583.7 B / 851.8 C / 1320.7 CB
Damage increased from [64.6-80.7] to [77.4-96.8], a 1.19x change
0.71x the DPS of the current M-300 Claymore

M-27 Scimitar
Current DPS: 362.7 S / 434.2 R / 540.9 B / 777.9 C / 1215.5 CB
New DPS: 434.9 S / 520.6 R / 648.6 B / 932.8 C / 1457.5 CB
Damage increased from [35.4-44.2] to [42.4-53], a 1.19x change
0.75x the DPS of the current M-300 Claymore

Disciple
Current DPS: 322.2 S / 401.7 R / 533 B / 763 C / 1211 CB
New DPS: 386.3 S / 481.6 R / 639.1 B / 914.8 C / 1452 CB
Damage increased from [46.3-57.8] to [55.4-69.3], a 1.19x change
0.69x the DPS of the current M-300 Claymore
Some ideas suggest increasing weapon force so it staggers like the description says.
No comment since I don't have data on weapon stagger, but it sounds like an interesting idea.
I am a bit concerned that these shotgun buffs put lighter shotguns too close to the claymore.
But without them they'd have lesser DPS than a carnifex, which is a huge shame IMO.

M-11 Wraith
Current DPS: 488 S / 594.4 R / 760.1 B / 1124.6 C / 1771.1 CB
New DPS: 554.1 S / 695.5 R / 933.7 B / 1124.6 C / 2205.2 CB
Rate of Fire increased from 48 to 60
1x the DPS of the current M-300 Claymore
Believe it or not, this slight RoF change will keep the wraith on par with an active reloading claymore.
Claymore will still be better on infiltrators by far because they can squeeze 2 claymore shots in a cloak.
And claymore will still have better burst DPS and is easier to upgrade.
But with this, the wraith will be competitive with the claymore on classes that value weight.

N7 Crusader
Current DPS: 510.1 S / 605.3 R / 744.1 B / 1331.6 C / 1715.7 CB
New DPS: 612.1 S / 726.3 R / 892.8 B / 1597.8 C / 2058.7 CB
Damage increased from [486.6-608.3] to [583.9-729.9], a 1.19x change
1.27x the DPS of the current M-77 Paladin
1.05x the DPS of the current M-300 Claymore
I don't want to reduce the weight of the crusader, because it has a unique niche as a claymore weight rail gun.
Reducing the weight might push its niche too close to saber and paladin territory
This gun definitely deserves better DPS than the paladin though.
[/quote]

[quote] Heavy Pistol
Arc Pistol
Current DPS: 367.7 S / 445.5 R / 565.1 B / 848.5 C / 1283.8 CB
New DPS: 422.6 S / 512 R / 649.5 B / 975.2 C / 1475.6 CB
Damage increased from [70.2-87.7] to [80.6-100.8], a 1.14x change
Capacity increased from [72-90] to [180-225], a 2.5x change
1.16x the DPS of the current M-6 Carnifex
Arc pistol has some of the worst spare ammo in the game, worse than the harrier.
It's competitive in DPS to the carnifex, but heavier and harder to use, so it could use a slight DPS buff as well.

N7 Eagle
Current DPS: 428.3 S / 499.7 R / 599.7 B / 985.6 C / 1267.2 CB
New DPS: 535.3 S / 624.5 R / 749.4 B / 1231.7 C / 1583.6 CB
Damage increased from [74.9-93.7] to [93.6-117.1], a 1.24x change
1.4x the DPS of the current Arc Pistol
0.71x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane
Eagle has a zoom accuracy somewhere between the arc pistol and the hurricane.
It deserves damage output somewhere between these two guns.
[/quote]

[quote] Assault Rifles
M-8 Avenger
Current DPS: 317.8 S / 348.4 R / 385.6 B / 682 C / 783.9 CB
New DPS: 444.4 S / 487.2 R / 539.2 B / 953.7 C / 1096.2 CB
Damage increased from [38.6-48.2] to [53.9-67.4], a 1.39x change
0.73x the DPS of the current M-76 Revenant

M-15 Vindicator
Current DPS: 387.2 S / 422.1 R / 464 B / 774.8 C / 894.6 CB
New DPS: 542.1 S / 591 R / 649.6 B / 1084.7 C / 1252.5 CB
Damage increased from [62.4-78] to [87.3-109.2], a 1.4x change
0.88x the DPS of the current M-76 Revenant

M-96 Mattock
Current DPS: 443.1 S / 528.2 R / 653.7 B / 1010.1 C / 1478.2 CB
New DPS: 531.5 S / 633.6 R / 784.1 B / 1211.6 C / 1773.1 CB
Damage increased from [94.2-117.8] to [113-141.3], a 1.19x change
0.95x the DPS of the current M-76 Revenant

Phaeston
Current DPS: 365 S / 407.9 R / 462.1 B / 752.9 C / 943.3 CB
New DPS: 510.7 S / 570.7 R / 646.6 B / 1053.4 C / 1319.9 CB
Damage increased from [38.1-47.6] to [53.2-66.6], a 1.39x change
0.85x the DPS of the current M-76 Revenant

Geth Pulse Rifle
Current DPS: 287.2 S / 347.3 R / 439.1 B / 608.8 C / 993.3 CB
New DPS: 401.7 S / 485.8 R / 614.2 B / 851.5 C / 1389.3 CB
Damage increased from [24.1-30.1] to [33.6-42.1], a 1.39x change
0.73x the DPS of the current M-76 Revenant

M-37 Falcon
Current DPS: 175.2 S / 214.1 R / 275.3 B / 575.9 C / 619.2 CB
New DPS: 250.9 S / 306.7 R / 394.5 B / 825 C / 887.1 CB
Damage increased from [279.2-349] to [400-500], a 1.43x change
0.82x the DPS of the current Krysae Sniper Rifle
0.66x the DPS of the current Scorpion

M-76 Revenant
Current DPS: 555.4 S / 668.2 R / 838.5 B / 1170.3 C / 1894.7 CB
New DPS: 666.5 S / 801.9 R / 1006.2 B / 1404.3 C / 2273.7 CB
Damage increased from [63.6-79.5] to [76.3-95.4], a 1.2x change
0.91x the DPS of the current N7 Hurricane
While the current revenant is by no means a bad gun, it does need a slight buff to keep pace.
I had to buff a few SMG's to keep pace with the N7 hurricane
Then I had to give quite a few substantial buffs for assault rifles to keep up with SMG's
Then I needed to give a slight buff to the revenant to make sure it still outperforms most assault rifles.

M-99 Saber
Current DPS: 416.9 S / 493.6 R / 604.9 B / 898.9 C / 1354 CB
New DPS: 530.6 S / 661.5 R / 878 B / 1243.8 C / 1980.8 CB
Rate of Fire increased from 80 to 120
1.15x the DPS of the current M-77 Paladin
The current saber has comparable spare clips to the paladin. But heavier, more recoil, slower reload, less dps, etc.
And all it has to show for it is an 8 clip magazine and some extra capacity.
A RoF boost to 120 will both put the magazine to good use, and give it a unique firing rate.

Collector Rifle
Current DPS: 349.4 S / 406.5 R / 485.8 B / 822.2 C / 1015 CB
New DPS: 631.1 S / 734.2 R / 877.5 B / 1485 C / 1833.3 CB
Damage increased from [48.7-60.9] to [88-110], a 1.8x change
1.1x the DPS of the current M-76 Revenant
[/quote]

[quote]Weapon Mods
[quote]Sniper Rifle Enhanced Scope
Accuracy bonus on sniper rifles is useless, most sniper rifles have no aim error already anyways.
Replace accuracy bonus with a stability bonus that only works while zoomed.
Allow enhanced scope to adjust your zoom.
Add a 15m-25m radar, radar radius increases with rank.
In Mass Effect 1, there were upgrades called combat optics.
They boosted accuracy like the enhanced scope, and also added a radar.
But geth hoppers could scramble the combat optics radar. Allow some enemies to do that as well.
[/quote]

[quote]SMG Smart Choke
Scope mod magnifies recoil, which SMG's have a lot of.
A smart choke makes more sense for an SMG.
I'm not asking for the scope mod to be removed, but for a smart choke to be added.
[/quote]

[quote]Sidearm VI Mod - For Pistols & SMG's
This weapon is reloaded when unequiped
Reload duration is halved
[/quote]

[quote]Weapon Mods With negative Side Effects
The idea is simple, add new more powerful weapon mods, but ones that come with negative side effects
Here are just some ideas ripped off of weapon mods in ME1:

High Explosive Ammo Mod
-50% power cooldown
+1m explosion radius to weapons, increases blast radius of weapons that already AOE by 1m.
Each round fired consumes 2x as much ammunition.
Ammo will be deducted from spare clips if there is not enough in the magazine

Scram Rail Mod
In ME1, high caliber barrels reduce RoF and increased heat absorption penalty.
But the name "high caliber barrel" is taken, so lets use the name of the "Scram Rail" mod from ME1
This mod cannot be used at the same time as a high caliber barrel
+50% weapon damage
-10% RoF
+20% chance of consuming 2x as much ammunition each shot fired.
[/quote]

[/quote]

[quote]Nerfs
Before I list out the nerfs, I want to make it clear that I play infiltrator exclusively
And most of the nerfs listed below are infiltrator nerfs
I'm not listing these nerfs out because I want them (because I don't)
But because I honestly believe they are necessary to promote class balance
-Grimy Bunyip
[/quote]

Misc Changes
[quote]
[quote]Tactical Cloak Change
Cloak is unbalanced because it is a great support skill and a great DPS skill at the same time.
Back in ME1, infiltrators had to pick between Operative and Commando.
One was good as support and with tech powers, the other was the combat specialist.
That's our goal here, to make players pick between a DPS infiltrator and a Support infiltrator.

A lot of players like to suggest simply nerfing infiltrator damage.
Or to make cloak's cooldown scale like normal skills instead of scaling with duration.

The problem with a damage nerf to the infiltrator is that it's a simple nerf, it affects everyone equally.
Our solution lets the player pick their nerf. Either you nerf your own DPS, or you nerf your support abilities.
The problem with changing cloak duration is that it affects weapons very differently.
It would have virtually no impact on a weapon like a raptor.
On the other hand it would nerf the black widow so hard it would start killing bosses slower than a raptor.
Thus neither of these two solutions were considered

Another problem is rank 6 sniper damage
Rank 6 sniper damage gives 1.4x increase to base damage to sniper rifles.
The problem is this means sniper rifles will either be UP on non-infiltrators or OP on infiltrators.

The following solution will try to address all these issues:

Proposal
Base duration reduced to 3 seconds
Rank 4 duration changed to +4 seconds duration and +40% power damage
Rank 6 bonus power changed to bonus power and +4 second duration

And to address the issue of rank 6 sniper damage:
Remove 1.4x sniper damage altogether and boost the base damage of sniper rifles by 1.4x
This will make sniper rifles more viable for non-infiltrators
Replace rank 6 sniper damage with Sniper Reload.
Halve sniper rifle reload time while cloak damage boost is active.
This will make single shot rifles more viable. It will have virtually no impact on multi shot rifles.

If this proposal is implemented, the krysae can remain a sniper rifle so long as it does not receive a 1.4x increase
to its base damage as the proposal suggests for the other sniper rifles.
[/quote]

[quote]Boss Headshots
Bioware removed headshots on boss units, and I can only guess the reasons.
Maybe they wanted adepts to be good boss slayers, and obviously you can't headshot a biotic explosion.
Maybe they just didn't want bosses to go down slower.
Either way, it's not a fun mechanic. All bosses should have some weak points of some sort.

Proposal
Give all bosses some weakspots that deal 1.5x headshot damage, and 2.0x with the +50% bonus from kishok.
[/quote]

[quote]Reloading, Sidearms, and Action Cancelling
Make action cancelling a feature on the consoles, like it essentially is on PC
Weapon switching is very slow in ME3, and unlike reloading, it cannot be animation cancelled effectively.
Halve the base weapon switching time, and allow animation cancelling to further halve it.
In addition to slow weapon switching, weight mechanics further discourage sidearms, so to change this:
Unequipped weapons have their weight halved.
[/quote]



















[/quote]

















[quote]
New Tooltips
The following bonuses are multipliers, not additive bonuses:
Tactical Cloak Sniper Damage
Melee Damage Weapon Mods
Power Amplification Module
Cloak Melee damage
Geth weapon damage from Networked AI
Proximity Mine Debuff
Sabotage's Tech Vulnerability
[/quote]

Thank you for reading this gigantic post. <3
But before you leave, I want to ask just one question:

Red, Blue, Or Green?


Image IPB
Image IPB
Image IPB
Original image drawn by tangster

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 06 juin 2012 - 01:59 .


#2
hihey54

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Awww

#3
IonSilverbolt

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SMG Scope
I find the idea of scoping one's SMG to be rather silly.
Replace the scope with a smart choke similar to that of an SMG


I get a lot of fairly long-range kills with a tempest using scope and barrel. If you're standing out in the open trying to fire it with a scope, then yeah, it's worthless past close to mid range.

#4
Badpanzer

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Well very in depth and pretty sensible post.
Really to many changes to cover in one post but you have some interesting ideas.
You should give AR's some thought as imo they are the biggest weapon balance problem.
I think your squad TA idea is really good and I hope it happens its nice to see squad support powers.

#5
Cyonan

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Much of your weapon changes aren't going to do much. You're playing too much with sustained DPS numbers when burst is king in Mass Effect.

The Avenger X does 328.56 sustained DPS while the Black Widow X does 321.30. Which is the better weapon?

#6
Grimy Bunyip

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IonSilverbolt wrote...

SMG Scope
I find the idea of scoping one's SMG to be rather silly.
Replace the scope with a smart choke similar to that of an SMG


I get a lot of fairly long-range kills with a tempest using scope and barrel. If you're standing out in the open trying to fire it with a scope, then yeah, it's worthless past close to mid range.


I absolutely agree.
When I use an SMG, I always use a scope.
The accuracy bonus is invaluable in controlling bullet spread

But if say, you use a hornet.
The zoom makes the recoil less manageable than when you're unscoped.
This is less of an issue with the tempest than the hornet.

But when I look at the typical SMG, and if I had to choose between accuracy bonus with scope.
or the same accuracy bonus without the scope.

I'd go for the accuracy bonus without the scope.

And yes like you said, being in and out of cover plays a huge factor.
And to be completely honest, I use SMG's as my run around and rambo weapon.
Perhaps that has skewed my opinion on this matter.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 09:50 .


#7
Grimy Bunyip

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Cyonan wrote...

Much of your weapon changes aren't going to do much. You're playing too much with sustained DPS numbers when burst is king in Mass Effect.

The Avenger X does 328.56 sustained DPS while the Black Widow X does 321.30. Which is the better weapon?

Hmm that's a fair point. I'll have to think about it some more, but I'm not entirely sure I agree.
For 2 reasons, for which I've provided the math below.
Firstly you can argue that the black widow's sustained DPS is much higher than the number you gave me.
The other is that that in my thread, I mostly only resorted to comparing sustained DPS between similar weapons or for setting hard limits where one weapon should not be superior to another.
for example, I compared paladin and the crusader on sustained DPS because they are similar weapons.
Or when I compared the Indra to sniper rifles in general because I wanted to make sure that the Indra would not outperform other sniper rifles such as the valiant and black widow at boss slaying.

-----
Where are you getting your DPS numbers though, that's not what I'm calculating.
BWX does 642.6 damage per shot, and can fire them in 3.485-4.97 seconds depending on reload cancelling.

giving me 387.9-553.2
And keep in mind, tactical cloak's rank 6 evolution boosts base damage by 1.4x

giving you 543.0-774.5

avenger X deals 48.2 damage per shot
with a magazine of 30 shots and 500 RPM, and a firing cycle of 3.88-4.28 seconds depending on reload cancelling.

giving you 337.9-372.7

substantially less.
I hope you aren't using https://docs.google....B3NlE#gid=13]My Calculator[/url]
The numbers you provided me are similar but not exactly like mine.

I'm concerned because my calculator has a subjective "cycle loss" hardcoded into it.
My calculator assumes you waste 0.5 seconds due to poor reflexes each reload cycle.

whereas the calculations i performed above are assuming perfect reflexes.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 09:50 .


#8
Badpanzer

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SMG performance depends a lot on what race/class is using them.
I personally really like the tempest but I only scope it on Turians as then it becomes a lightweight revanant.
Otherwise I just fit ammo and heatsink mods and enjoy infinite ammo :)

#9
MissMinaethiel

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I don't agree with that 25% duration loss on TC for tier 6 at all. Either you force an Infiltrator who wants to spec to be a medic/objective runner to take a useless "use power while cloaked" (unless partially power dependent) or to slap them with a duration killer if they want their sniper rifle damage.

In fact you're basically making tier 6 useless because Salarian infils who combo ED and TC won't really get an advantage from choosing the power while cloaked because it makes ED partially useless. I know that many people use it as an emergency shield recharge while running away.

A 60% duration penalty is also a lot >_> That means Infiltrators will have a little over 4 seconds to aim and get off a shot that does the maximum damage. This could be a huge liability, especially in gold. Body shots are really not an option with the large amount of enemies and their durability. This would depend on the user being aiming quickly, which is not always the case, particularly for new snipers or people who aren't as good with handling one.

Those nerfs just don't seem to be friendly to all the people who could play the infil; just those who are experienced snipers.

EDIT; Also, those Geth heavy melee nerfs will KILL melee specced classes. Geth are already glass cannons as it is.

Modifié par MissMinaethiel, 03 mai 2012 - 10:03 .


#10
BoomDynamite

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Fix the Tempest. You labeled it as the GPS.

#11
BoomDynamite

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Wait. Disregard my statement.

#12
BoomDynamite

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Why lower Wraith damage? ALSO, LEAVE TC AS IS!

#13
Grimy Bunyip

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There's a lot to go through in here XD

MissMinaethiel wrote...

I don't agree with that 25% duration loss on TC for tier 6 at all. Either you force an Infiltrator who wants to spec to be a medic/objective runner to take a useless "use power while cloaked" (unless partially power dependent) or to slap them with a duration killer if they want their sniper rifle damage.

it's -25% duration IF you get the sniper damage boost. You can simply not spec into rank 6 at all.
Plenty of infiltrators already do this, especially shotgun infiltrators.

In fact you're basically making tier 6 useless because Salarian infils who combo ED and TC won't really get an advantage from choosing the power while cloaked because it makes ED partially useless. I know that many people use it as an emergency shield recharge while running away.

While I acknowledge this strategy as valid, I still think it's OP.
There's no other class that can do that aside from the salarian infiltrator.

A 60% duration penalty is also a lot >_> That means Infiltrators will have a little over 4 seconds to aim and get off a shot that does the maximum damage. This could be a huge liability, especially in gold. Body shots are really not an option with the large amount of enemies and their durability. This would depend on the user being aiming quickly, which is not always the case, particularly for new snipers or people who aren't as good with handling one.

Those nerfs just don't seem to be friendly to all the people who could play the infil; just those who are experienced snipers.

Up to 60%
Almost nobody other than melee geth infiltrators will take the 10% nerf in exchange for melee damage.
so effectively 25% or 50% depending on if you want the 1.4x sniper damage mod or not.

the 25% nerf is essentially trivial, 7.5 seconds is plenty to do almost anything you could ever want.
5 seconds is substantially less, but to be completely honest, 1.4x to your base sniper rifle damage is HUGE.
it really does deserve a nontrivial nerf.

#14
Rokayt

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Basically, you must use Damage per shot -50 to calculate DPS, OR add armor piercing to a ton of the weapons that ARE dps weapons (Negative armor piercing on the paladin/carnifex would be rather awesome for balance. -200 armor piercing carnifex? Never gonna be a problem to balancing that gun again. All the sudden, its effective gold damage becomes 200, instead of 300. Roughly balancing it with sabotage.)

#15
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Singularity
I've seen 2 other major suggestions.
Singularity Detonates on Recast: I find this mechanic to be an awkward way to trigger explosions
Singularity Traps Shielded/Armored Targets: I find this to be too redundant with stasis.
Singularity now pulses warp like the biotic sphere with warp upgrade
Limit casting range to 15m
Prevent the singularity itself from being detonated for a biotic explosion.


Making the singularity have a max casting range of 15 meters is a terrible idea. The human adept is squishy and already is limited to casting shockwave to 10 meters (15 if he choses the ranged upgrade.)  He also already has warp and doesn not need singularty to cast the warps for him and he does need to be able to detonate it. Warp in and of itself is not a very damaging power. Biotics need biotic explosions for their damage.

Some suggestions for singularity:
1) A larger base radius. Currently it is a pretty small radius for a crowd control skill

2) It needs to have a significant effect on all enemies. Make it hold the unprotected enemies as it does now. Make it slow by 75% all other  enemies. Again, the slow effect will only be useful if the singularity is large. A slow effect makes sense, as the enemies struggle against the mini black hole pulling them towards the center.

3) Make the damage over time evolution do damage to all protections as well as to health, so those protected enemies slowly moving through the Singularity are having their protections slowly stripped from them.

4) For the evolution that causes an explosion when singularity expires, shorten the length of the singularity to the "holding time" of the singularity. 

The above suggestions would make singularity more useful as a trap without it becoming a carbon copy of Stasis.

Until both Singularity and Shockwave are significantly improved Human Adepts will remain the cellar dwellers of the adept class.

#16
Guest_PDesign_*

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Grimy Bunyip wrote...

M11 Wraith
Damage decreased to [70.0-87.5] per slug


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#17
Grimy Bunyip

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BoomDynamite wrote...

Why lower Wraith damage? ALSO, LEAVE TC AS IS!

XD

but if I raised the RoF to 100 and didn't nerf the damage, it would have so much more DPS than the claymore.

Which I would be fine with IF the wraith weighed as much as a claymore.
But it doesn't. And I feel like the wraith is more unique as the lighter weight counterpart.

But yes I acknowledge that an increase to rate of fire, maintaining its magazine size and damage per shot, would be balanced if its weight were increased to [2.5-2.0]

#18
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Grenades
Restock grenades after each wave. You can restock in between waves, but it isn't fun.
Make the cooldown scale with duration, similar to tactical cloak.


Giving the character 1 grenade between each wave would be enough. There are plenty of ammo crates around. And there are the extro ammo consumables that I never remember to use. I don't really think grenades need a cooldown as they are already limited by quantity and crate restock cooldowns.

#19
cuzIMgood

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Probably the best balance thread I've seen on here in a long time. Looked through it quick and almost everything suggested looks great. Nice work.

#20
BoomDynamite

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Grimy Bunyip wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

Why lower Wraith damage? ALSO, LEAVE TC AS IS!

XD

but if I raised the RoF to 100 and didn't nerf the damage, it would have so much more DPS than the claymore.

Which I would be fine with IF the wraith weighed as much as a claymore.
But it doesn't. And I feel like the wraith is more unique as the lighter weight counterpart.

But yes I acknowledge that an increase to rate of fire, maintaining its magazine size and damage per shot, would be balanced if its weight were increased to [2.5-2.0]

IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER THAN THE CLAYMORE! IT'S MORE RARE!

#21
Grimy Bunyip

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Making the singularity have a max casting range of 15 meters is a terrible idea. The human adept is squishy and already is limited to casting shockwave to 10 meters (15 if he choses the ranged upgrade.)  He also already has warp and doesn not need singularty to cast the warps for him and he does need to be able to detonate it. Warp in and of itself is not a very damaging power. Biotics need biotic explosions for their damage.

Some suggestions for singularity:
1) A larger base radius. Currently it is a pretty small radius for a crowd control skill

2) It needs to have a significant effect on all enemies. Make it hold the unprotected enemies as it does now. Make it slow by 75% all other  enemies. Again, the slow effect will only be useful if the singularity is large. A slow effect makes sense, as the enemies struggle against the mini black hole pulling them towards the center.

3) Make the damage over time evolution do damage to all protections as well as to health, so those protected enemies slowly moving through the Singularity are having their protections slowly stripped from them.

4) For the evolution that causes an explosion when singularity expires, shorten the length of the singularity to the "holding time" of the singularity. 

The above suggestions would make singularity more useful as a trap without it becoming a carbon copy of Stasis.

Until both Singularity and Shockwave are significantly improved Human Adepts will remain the cellar dwellers of the adept class.

you have a good point about an extra offensive power being redundant with warp and shockwave.
And tbh I didn't like my singularity idea as much as the others.
If you don't mind I'll take your idea and plug it into the OP, with credits to you.

#22
Rokayt

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Grimy Bunyip wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

Why lower Wraith damage? ALSO, LEAVE TC AS IS!

XD

but if I raised the RoF to 100 and didn't nerf the damage, it would have so much more DPS than the claymore.

Which I would be fine with IF the wraith weighed as much as a claymore.
But it doesn't. And I feel like the wraith is more unique as the lighter weight counterpart.

But yes I acknowledge that an increase to rate of fire, maintaining its magazine size and damage per shot, would be balanced if its weight were increased to [2.5-2.0]

I would prefer the double barreled shotgun approach to the wraith.
Basically, make it the love child of the eviscerator and the scimitar, in all the right ways.
Still, Your forgetting one thing. Thats a 60% Damage nerf you have proposed on gold. You must accept that damage - 50 is the effective damage per shot there. Unless you feel like adding armor piercing, which would then add to the wraith as another unique quirk of it.

Still, I would take the negative armor piercing advice on the more op weapons.
Aka:
Carnifex: -200% AP.
Paladin: -150% AP.
GPS: -100% AP.

All is fair once again in beutiful firebase hydra.

Edit: You seriously need to half all of the duration upgrades on your infiltraitor proposal. A 50% percent total reduction is FAR Too much, and yours goes up to 65%.
If it were a 30% total reduction I would be fine with it, but thats just insane what you did there.

Modifié par Rokayt, 03 mai 2012 - 10:16 .


#23
Cyonan

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Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Hmm that's a fair point. I'll have to think about it some more, but I'm not entirely sure I agree.
For 2 reasons, for which I've provided the math below.
Firstly you can argue that the black widow's sustained DPS is much higher than the number you gave me.
The other is that that in my thread, I mostly only resorted to comparing sustained DPS between similar weapons or for setting hard limits where one weapon should not be superior to another.
for example, I compared paladin and the crusader on sustained DPS because they are similar weapons.
Or when I compared the Indra to sniper rifles in general because I wanted to make sure that the Indra would not outperform other sniper rifles such as the valiant and black widow at boss slaying.


I was using another calculator, I'm getting numbers that agree with you now.

I can still use the arugment that the Predator X does 463 DPS while the Black Widow does 387(Not counting reload cancelling). The Predator X actually does 3 more DPS than the Carnifex X.

I have, of course, been comparing fast weapons to slow weapons, and saying that the slow weapons are all better because of substantially higher burst. This shows there is a problem with faster weapons in general.

Though for the full auto weapons that are considered to be good, they all have considerably higher sustained dps than the incredibly slow but high burst weapons. A Revenant X does about 55% more sustained DPS than a Black Widow X does, and the Hurricane X does around 123% more. Both of those are before reload cancelling.

Any of the fast weapons that have comparable or worse dps to the slow ones are not really ever going to get considered very good because slow gives better burst, which lets you stay in cover more.

#24
Atheosis

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Who cares if the sustained DPS of the Incisor can match the Black Widow? At this point isn't it obvious that sustained DPS on rapid fire weapons need to be higher than slow firing powerful weapons?

#25
Rokayt

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Atheosis wrote...

Who cares if the sustained DPS of the Incisor can match the Black Widow? At this point isn't it obvious that sustained DPS on rapid fire weapons need to be higher than slow firing powerful weapons?

At least 40% more, given identical accuracy and weight.
An innaccurate weapon should do considerably more, a heavy weapon should do more then that.
An accurate, low weight DPS guns should get non-penetrive AP effects, since otherwise they actually WONT work in the higher difficultys, at all.