166 réponses à ce sujet

[Atheosis]

To be honest, the OP seems to not understand the difference between "balance" and "style" because many of the changes he is proposing are more changes to the style of weapons rather than simple balance changes.

[Rokayt]

Atheosis wrote...

To be honest, the OP seems to not understand the difference between "balance" and "style" because many of the changes he is proposing are more changes to the style of weapons rather than simple balance changes.

Truely. The only weapon that needs a style change is the Wraith.

[Atheosis]

Rokayt wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Who cares if the sustained DPS of the Incisor can match the Black Widow? At this point isn't it obvious that sustained DPS on rapid fire weapons need to be higher than slow firing powerful weapons?

At least 40% more, given identical accuracy and weight.
An innaccurate weapon should do considerably more, a heavy weapon should do more then that.
An accurate, low weight DPS guns should get non-penetrive AP effects, since otherwise they actually WONT work in the higher difficultys, at all.

There is always AP and Warp ammo along with piercing mods, so I wouldn't quite say "at all".  

[Eckswhyzed]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

M11 Wraith
Rate of Fire increased to 100
Magazine increased to 3
Spare Clips increased to [27-42]
Damage decreased to [70.0-87.5] per slug
1.213x more sustained DPS than a claymore
less burst DPS and 0.840x sustained DPS of claymore when animation cancelling

Ergh. The Wraith is currently the only shotgun with a two-round magazine. I feel that if you changed it to 3, it might too similar to the Eviscerator. I consider the Wraith to be something of a middle ground between the two.

So I'd keep the same mag size, give it a damage buff, and increase the ROF just enough to maintain an advantage over the Claymore reload cancel.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Rokayt wrote...

I would prefer the double barreled shotgun approach to the wraith.
Basically, make it the love child of the eviscerator and the scimitar, in all the right ways.
Still, Your forgetting one thing. Thats a 60% Damage nerf you have proposed on gold. You must accept that damage - 50 is the effective damage per shot there. Unless you feel like adding armor piercing, which would then add to the wraith as another unique quirk of it.

Still, I would take the negative armor piercing advice on the more op weapons.
Aka:
Carnifex: -200% AP.
Paladin: -150% AP.
GPS: -100% AP.

All is fair once again in beutiful firebase hydra.

you know, I thought the EXACT same thing when I tried to tweak the wraith.
And what I came up with was [76.5-95.6] damage if I want the wraith to have 13% more sustained DPS without quick reloading
and 13% with perfectly timed quick reloading (which is my idea of it being on par with a claymore.)
but this means the wraith still does less damage in 2 shots than a claymore does in 1.

I was clearly not factoring in burst damage properly.
But at the same time, I need to consider the reduced weight and boosted accuracy of the claymore, and its ability to dispatch multiple enemies more effectively than the claymore.
there were too many parameters to consider, it makes balancing a bit trickier.

I circumvented this by adding a 3rd shot to the magazine.
But if you like I can reconsider balancing a 2 shot wraith.
I do like the idea of the double barreled shotgun.

Next topic!
I'm not sure how I feel about negative armor piercing.
I don't like of adding extra parameters and complexity to the game.
On the other hand, it would deepen the impact of armor.
bleh, too many variables to consider.
If you couldn't tell yet, I don't like making conclusions on things when there are too many variables to consider XD

and for the record I think the GPS is the last weapon that needs a buff XD

[Atheosis]

Rokayt wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

To be honest, the OP seems to not understand the difference between "balance" and "style" because many of the changes he is proposing are more changes to the style of weapons rather than simple balance changes.

Truely. The only weapon that needs a style change is the Wraith.

I'm not so sure.  I like the current design of the Wraith honestly.  With the most recent buff it actually feels pretty good to me.  

[Atheosis]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

M11 Wraith
Rate of Fire increased to 100
Magazine increased to 3
Spare Clips increased to [27-42]
Damage decreased to [70.0-87.5] per slug
1.213x more sustained DPS than a claymore
less burst DPS and 0.840x sustained DPS of claymore when animation cancelling

Ergh. The Wraith is currently the only shotgun with a two-round magazine. I feel that if you changed it to 3, it might too similar to the Eviscerator. I consider the Wraith to be something of a middle ground between the two.

So I'd keep the same mag size, give it a damage buff, and increase the ROF just enough to maintain an advantage over the Claymore reload cancel.

Reload cancel itself really needs to be fixed in my opinion.  You really shouldn't ba able to use a power until you are done reloading just as you can't fire your gun until you are done reloading.  It's just a big fat programming mistake that people are exploiting.

Modifié par Atheosis, 03 mai 2012 - 10:27 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Atheosis wrote...

To be honest, the OP seems to not understand the difference between "balance" and "style" because many of the changes he is proposing are more changes to the style of weapons rather than simple balance changes.

Yeah, I explained that some of the "balance" ideas were more creative ideas than simple tweaks.
I've done one other balance thread where I did nothing but tweaks to damage per bullet, and no changes to style of weapons.

So ultimately this is just your opinion.
Even if I stopped doing style changes, there would people that complain that I should try doing more style changes.

I believe that there exists a balance between balance and style.

Atheosis wrote...

Who cares if the sustained DPS of the
Incisor can match the Black Widow? At this point isn't it obvious that
sustained DPS on rapid fire weapons need to be higher than slow firing
powerful weapons?

It's a little complicated.

I think weapons should have superior sustained DPS if they require you peek out of cover for a longer priod of time.
In
the case of the incisor and the black widow, the BW has you peek out
longer to dispose of 3 bullets than the incisor needs to dispose of 15.
BW takes 2 seconds, incisor takes 1.83 seconds. close to the same, but the BW is slightly longer.

Secondly, sustained DPS is what determine's a weapon's ability to dispose of heavy bosses like atlases.
And
I think heavy arms weapons such as black widow, that deal lots of
damage in single shots, should be more against atlases and such.

So,
in this example, since the black widow requires equal to more time out
of cover, and is a heavy arms sort of weapon, it deserves superior
sustained DPS

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 10:33 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Atheosis wrote...

Reload cancel itself really needs to be fixed in my opinion.  You really shouldn't ba able to use a power until you are done reloading just as you can't fire your gun until you are done reloading.  It's just a big fat programming mistake that people are exploiting.

I like reload cancelling as a game feature, so do plenty of other players.
From my understanding, it was a bioware dev named christina norman that intentionally implemented reload cancelling in ME2 and requested it in ME3.

and likewise I consider reload cancelling a valid game mechanic.

IDK the exact thread where christina norman states this, but the following URL is a good place to start looking:
http://social.biowar...index/6885927/1

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Ergh. The Wraith is currently the only
shotgun with a two-round magazine. I feel that if you changed it to 3,
it might too similar to the Eviscerator. I consider the Wraith to be
something of a middle ground between the two.

So I'd keep the
same mag size, give it a damage buff, and increase the ROF just enough
to maintain an advantage over the Claymore reload cancel.

I really like the idea of the wraith as a double barreled shotgun too.
I responded to another person stating this.

I will look into balancing a 2 shot wraith into more detail, but it's much more challenging to balanec than a 3 shot wraith.
The 3rd shot gives extra weapon diversity, reducing the emphasis on burst DPS in balancing and yada yada.

TLDR yes, I'd like a balanced 2 shot wraith too. But I chickened out when I originally made the thread.
I will consider the 2 shot wraith a bit more later, but I don't want to jump to a conclusion on a 2 shot wraith until I am certain.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 10:33 .

[Atheosis]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

I like reload cancelling as a game feature, so do plenty of other players.
From my understanding, it was a bioware dev named christina norman that intentionally implemented reload cancelling in ME2 and requested it in ME3.

and likewise I consider reload cancelling a valid game mechanic.

IDK the exact thread where christina norman states this, but the following URL is a good place to start looking:
http://social.biowar...index/6885927/1

There's nothing valid about it.  It's just flat out silly (interrupting actions with other actions does not somehow render the first action magically complete).  If it was an intentional design decision all I can say is wow...

[CollateralEstoppel]

Cryo Blast - allow shielded targets to be chilled. Make the final evolution an option to deal high damage to an ignited enemy.
Ignite - Increase damage to Red bars by 50%.
Pull - Allow it to slow armored / shielded enemies (allowing biotic explosions).
Singularity - Allow it to slow armored / shielded enemies (same as pull).
Shockwave - Increase range significantly.
Lift Grenade - Remove the skill entirely and replace it on appliccable characters with something useful.
Split Grenade / Sticky Grenade - Give it the same treatment Frag / Inferno grenade got.
Grenades in general - Allow 2 to come out of ammo crate pickups instead of 1.

[Cyonan]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...
It's a little complicated.

I think weapons should have superior sustained DPS if they require you peek out of cover for a longer priod of time.
In
the case of the incisor and the black widow, the BW has you peek out
longer to dispose of 3 bullets than the incisor needs to dispose of 15.
BW takes 2 seconds, incisor takes 1.83 seconds. close to the same, but the BW is slightly longer.

Secondly, sustained DPS is what determine's a weapon's ability to dispose of heavy bosses like atlases.
And
I think heavy arms weapons such as black widow, that deal lots of
damage in single shots, should be more against atlases and such.

So,
in this example, since the black widow requires equal to more time out
of cover, and is a heavy arms sort of weapon, it deserves superior
sustained DPS

The problem is that the end result is that the Incisor is a Sniper Rifle that nobody wants to use because it does the poor sustained dps of a slow weapon, but also the poor burst of a fast weapon.

It's trying to be both, but it's just failing at everything.

[Stardrinker]

I really feel that they need to do a complete overhaul with the weapons. It's like they just picked numbers out of the air without taking into account DPS, burst, accuracy, recoil, ammo count etc. I mean sure, they have those mechanics but they don't utilise a proper stat weighting or budget to balance the weapons around.

I know that Bioware is pretty new to the whole multiplayer gaming scene, so they haven't had to look at balance with a fine-tooth comb, but they ARE a professional company and these discrepancies should have been sorted out by now. Even the weekly buffs/nerfs being applied seem to be buffed/nerfed based on popularity alone, instead of looking at the reasons why these weapons are popular/unpopular.

But enough with the rant...

Indra: Should probably be higher DPS than 1.05 times Valiant, due to it applying that dps over a longer period of time. Also, I'm not really comfortable balancing things based on other existing weapons, since I don't feel they were balanced properly to begin with. BUT, since we are balancing it relatively, and I feel bursty weapons should be lower DPS than non-bursty weapons, it should be ok.

Viper: Sounds good. Alternatively you could just increase the damage per shot and keep it as a lower burst weapon.

Inscisor: Should be higher DPS than the Black Widow (and other burstier sniper rifles), since its DPS is applied over a longer time period (less cloak synergy, more time out of cover etc).

Geth Plasma SMG: I feel that its DPS should be much higher, again, balancing it around Tempest's current DPS may not be such a good idea. Its damage is affected by armor much more, meaning you need to have proper consumables on all the time to make it effective vs armor, and, you have to be exposed the whole time. I'm thinking it should start at 400 DPS and ramp up to 1200 DPS (really depends on what Bioware considers baseline DPS, but then again they don't seem to know what they are doing, so ...).

Wraith Seems too similar to the Eviscerator (I know it's based off of it) if you take it to 3 shots. Better to make it just a higher DPS, lower burst Claymore with 2 shots.

Eagle: I think that a DPS buff is all that it really needs. Similarity to SMGs would be ok imo, since different classes have different weight bonuses for SMG/Heavy Pistols etc.

Saber: Similar thoughts as Viper.

This is all pretty much up in the air and just my personal opinion on the matter. Baseline DPS needs to be established and weapons balanced around it.

I feel that the weight system is too awkward to balance around and can be done away with completely. Just give weapon dependent classes abilites to enhance weapon effectiveness with set cooldown times (modifiable by evolution choices).

Spare ammo capacity should not be taken into account when balancing a weapon. They should expected to last a certain amount of time with small adjustments for flavour/variation.

class ability balance... well. That is much more trickier to balance since there's more variance and there are more things to take into account like synergy with weapons, synergy with other classes, synergy with abilites on that particular class. Do I want this class to be more independant or more of a team based class or support? I feel this area would need much more consideration since you no longer can just base it around a DPS value, then tweak it and add flair. You need to look at a much broader picture and have everything work together.

My 2 credits.

[Grimy Bunyip]

CollateralEstoppel wrote...

Cryo Blast - allow shielded targets to be chilled. Make the final evolution an option to deal high damage to an ignited enemy.
Ignite - Increase damage to Red bars by 50%.
Pull - Allow it to slow armored / shielded enemies (allowing biotic explosions).
Singularity - Allow it to slow armored / shielded enemies (same as pull).
Shockwave - Increase range significantly.
Lift Grenade - Remove the skill entirely and replace it on appliccable characters with something useful.
Split Grenade / Sticky Grenade - Give it the same treatment Frag / Inferno grenade got.
Grenades in general - Allow 2 to come out of ammo crate pickups instead of 1.

lotsa stuff in here, i'll have to get back to you in a bit

Cyonan wrote...

The problem is that the end result is that
the Incisor is a Sniper Rifle that nobody wants to use because it does
the poor sustained dps of a slow weapon, but also the poor burst of a
fast weapon.

It's trying to be both, but it's just failing at everything.

It's not poor sustained DPS if it can match the black widow.
Black widow is already the best atlas slayer of all the sniper rifles, better than the widow or javelin when used properly.

Also, you need to remember the incisor gets shield piercing.

[datako12]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Buffs
M-90 Indra
Weight Increased to [2.5-2.0]
Damage increased to [87.9-109.9]

1.05x sustained DPS of Valiant (ignoring TC), making it the highest DPS sniper rifle.
Extra weight needed to differentiate it from the raptor.
Most damage per magazine, but it takes 2.88 seconds to empty the clip.
Notably, 2.88 seconds is longer than the 2.13 damage boost window on Tactical Cloak

i kinda like the indra currently for what it is, and i kinda dislike what you propose for it, i would much rather see a slight damage boost, and the removal of the 50% damage when outside of scope

[Grimy Bunyip]

for some reason the coloring isnt working

Stardrinker wrote...

I really feel that they need to do a complete overhaul with the weapons. It's like they just picked numbers out of the air without taking into account DPS, burst, accuracy, recoil, ammo count etc. I mean sure, they have those mechanics but they don't utilise a proper stat weighting or budget to balance the weapons around.

I know that Bioware is pretty new to the whole multiplayer gaming scene, so they haven't had to look at balance with a fine-tooth comb, but they ARE a professional company and these discrepancies should have been sorted out by now. Even the weekly buffs/nerfs being applied seem to be buffed/nerfed based on popularity alone, instead of looking at the reasons why these weapons are popular/unpopular.

But enough with the rant...

Indra: Should probably be higher DPS than 1.05 times Valiant, due to it applying that dps over a longer period of time. Also, I'm not really comfortable balancing things based on other existing weapons, since I don't feel they were balanced properly to begin with. BUT, since we are balancing it relatively, and I feel bursty weapons should be lower DPS than non-bursty weapons, it should be ok.

I am trying to balance weapons by bringing them up to certain thresholds.
I consider valiant and black widow to be top of the line sniper rifles, so I'd balance the indra by bringing it up to par with the valiant.

I think the Indra should be less DPS than the valiant.
And yes this contradicts the claim that it is 1.05x the valiant.
But keep in mind that the indra has worse synergy with tactical cloak, so it suffers a relative DPS loss compared to other sniper rifles, while on infiltrators.

also it requires more exposure out of cover.
I acknowledge that Indra is probably one of the less balanced weapons in my batch though.
Thanks for the feedback.

Viper: Sounds good. Alternatively you could just increase the damage per shot and keep it as a lower burst weapon.

Yeap

Inscisor: Should be higher DPS than the Black Widow (and other burstier sniper rifles), since its DPS is applied over a longer time period (less cloak synergy, more time out of cover etc).

I mentioned this in the previous post.
But the incisor can empty its rounds in less time than the black widow.
Unless I'm mistaken with my calculation on that. That's also possible

correct me if im wrong, but incisor has 15 rounds, 450 RoF, and no min refire parameter.
It can fire all its rounds in 1.83 seconds.
the black widow requires 2.00 seconds

Geth Plasma SMG: I feel that its DPS should be much higher, again, balancing it around Tempest's current DPS may not be such a good idea. Its damage is affected by armor much more, meaning you need to have proper consumables on all the time to make it effective vs armor, and, you have to be exposed the whole time. I'm thinking it should start at 400 DPS and ramp up to 1200 DPS (really depends on what Bioware considers baseline DPS, but then again they don't seem to know what they are doing, so ...).

hmmmmm
the GPSMG doesn't actually ramp up very much. It reaches max firing rate after the 5th bullet.
Hence I compared it to the tempest, the ramp up is fairly trivial.

I would agree with your assertion if we were to increase the number of shots it would take for the geth plasma SMG to ramp up to its maximum firing rate.

Wraith Seems too similar to the Eviscerator (I know it's based off of it) if you take it to 3 shots. Better to make it just a higher DPS, lower burst Claymore with 2 shots.

Will work on a balanced 2 shot wraith, with proper explanation of why it's buffed.

Eagle: I think that a DPS buff is all that it really needs. Similarity to SMGs would be ok imo, since different classes have different weight bonuses for SMG/Heavy Pistols etc.

That's a fair assertion.

Saber: Similar thoughts as Viper.

This is all pretty much up in the air and just my personal opinion on the matter. Baseline DPS needs to be established and weapons balanced around it.

I feel that the weight system is too awkward to balance around and can be done away with completely. Just give weapon dependent classes abilites to enhance weapon effectiveness with set cooldown times (modifiable by evolution choices).

Spare ammo capacity should not be taken into account when balancing a weapon. They should expected to last a certain amount of time with small adjustments for flavour/variation.

class ability balance... well. That is much more trickier to balance since there's more variance and there are more things to take into account like synergy with weapons, synergy with other classes, synergy with abilites on that particular class. Do I want this class to be more independant or more of a team based class or support? I feel this area would need much more consideration since you no longer can just base it around a DPS value, then tweak it and add flair. You need to look at a much broader picture and have everything work together.

My 2 credits.

That's not a bad idea. It requires less parameters than the bioware's current method, and would be of a higher normalization from a database standpoint than bioware's current method.

And while from a design standpoint, your opinion is arguably superior.
I don't think most people reading this thread would understand wtf you're talking about.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[Atheosis]

You know as I look over all these sweeping changes being proposed I'm struck by how much I just don't like it. Not because they are bad ideas so much as it seems to being trying to reinvent everything when so much progress has been made balance-wise since release. It just feels like you would simply be creating a whole new system prone to new imbalances. I mean right now most weapons are decent and only a few classes just fatlout suck, which is a far cry from when this game was released. I think I'd rather we just keep on the course we are on.

[Cyonan]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

It's not poor sustained DPS if it can match the black widow.
Black widow is already the best atlas slayer of all the sniper rifles, better than the widow or javelin when used properly.

Also, you need to remember the incisor gets shield piercing.

The thing is when I say "poor sustained dps" I mean that the good sustained dps are the weapons like the Revenant(If you reliably hit things with it) or Hurricane. Things that do 600+ sustained DPS compared to the Black Widow's 387.

The Black Widow makes up for it via high powered shots, but the Incisor doesn't do that.

[Grimy Bunyip]

datako12 wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Buffs
M-90 Indra
Weight Increased to [2.5-2.0]
Damage increased to [87.9-109.9]

1.05x sustained DPS of Valiant (ignoring TC), making it the highest DPS sniper rifle.
Extra weight needed to differentiate it from the raptor.
Most damage per magazine, but it takes 2.88 seconds to empty the clip.
Notably, 2.88 seconds is longer than the 2.13 damage boost window on Tactical Cloak

i kinda like the indra currently for what it is, and i kinda dislike what you propose for it, i would much rather see a slight damage boost, and the removal of the 50% damage when outside of scope

Isn't that essentially just a raptor?
or with the removal of 50% damage outside of scope, a mattock?

Cyonan wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

It's not poor sustained DPS if it can match the black widow.
Black widow is already the best atlas slayer of all the sniper rifles, better than the widow or javelin when used properly.

Also, you need to remember the incisor gets shield piercing.

The
thing is when I say "poor sustained dps" I mean that the good sustained
dps are the weapons like the Revenant(If you reliably hit things with
it) or Hurricane. Things that do 600+ sustained DPS compared to the
Black Widow's 387.

The Black Widow makes up for it via high powered shots, but the Incisor doesn't do that.

You lost me there.
How does the black widow make up for it with high powered shots.
Higher Burst DPS? lowered impact of -50 damage reduction from armor?

Both the BW and the changed incisor have comparable burst DPS ignoring armor.
the changed incisor is affected slightly more by armor (but still not very much, because of tactical cloak boosting your damage per shot so much)
and frankly that's fair, the incisor weighs less.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Finally getting around to this.

CollateralEstoppel wrote...

Cryo Blast - allow shielded targets to be chilled. Make the final evolution an option to deal high damage to an ignited enemy.
Ignite - Increase damage to Red bars by 50%.
Pull - Allow it to slow armored / shielded enemies (allowing biotic explosions).
Singularity - Allow it to slow armored / shielded enemies (same as pull).
Shockwave - Increase range significantly.
Lift Grenade - Remove the skill entirely and replace it on appliccable characters with something useful.
Split Grenade / Sticky Grenade - Give it the same treatment Frag / Inferno grenade got.
Grenades in general - Allow 2 to come out of ammo crate pickups instead of 1.

Cryo Blast - If unshielded targets targets don't get slowed by cryo blast already, I agree they should

What do you mean by ignite, like the status effect caused by incinerate?
I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be. Unshielded, unarmored targets all die extremely fast.

Pull - eh, wouldn't that make pull the new reave?
It would definitely increase the frequency of biotic explosions by a lot.

singularity - I went with grumpy old man's suggestion, which included this.

Shockwave - Yeah I agree with this one

lift grenade - Not gonna consider removal and replacement for now, but do you have a replacement in mind?

Cluster/Sticky Grenades - I agree

2 grenades per ammo crate - I am concerned as to how this might affect gameplay.
Just how easy would this make spamming grenades all day long during a wave.
I feel like it would be very annoying playing with someone exploiting grenades like that.

[Stardrinker]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Inscisor: Should be higher DPS than the Black Widow (and other burstier sniper rifles), since its DPS is applied over a longer time period (less cloak synergy, more time out of cover etc).

I mentioned this in the previous post.
But the incisor can empty its rounds in less time than the black widow.
Unless I'm mistaken with my calculation on that. That's also possible

correct me if im wrong, but incisor has 15 rounds, 450 RoF, and no min refire parameter.
It can fire all its rounds in 1.83 seconds.
the black widow requires 2.00 seconds

If you have zero recoil then possibly. Try empty an Inscisor into a Phantom or Prime in under 2 seconds and tell me how many headshots you land.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Stardrinker wrote...

If you have zero recoil then possibly. Try empty an Inscisor into a Phantom or Prime in under 2 seconds and tell me how many headshots you land.

mhm, the suggested buff was a reduction to the recoil afterall.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 11:09 .

[Cyonan]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You lost me there.
How does the black widow make up for it with high powered shots.
Higher Burst DPS? lowered impact of -50 damage reduction from armor?

Both the BW and the changed incisor have comparable burst DPS ignoring armor.
the changed incisor is affected slightly more by armor (but still not very much, because of tactical cloak boosting your damage per shot so much)
and frankly that's fair, the incisor weighs less.

and yet do you know anyone that believes the Incisor is comparable to the Black Widow using  actual game play rather than math? You aren't playing with damage, just recoil which will help the Incisor a bit, but not make it suddenly amazing.

The Incisor is trying to be a fast weapon, but it doesn't do the sustained dps of a fast weapon, and it doesn't do the high damage per bullet that the slow weapons do.

Saying that "The weapon is fine because Tactical Cloak" is also not a very fair argument. Not everybody is an Infiltrator, even if these are Sniper Rifles. They should be balanced for Soldiers(The primary weapons users) as well.

Modifié par Cyonan, 03 mai 2012 - 11:09 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Cyonan wrote...

and yet do you know anyone that believes the Incisor is comparable to the Black Widow using  actual game play rather than math? You aren't playing with damage, just recoil which will help the Incisor a bit, but not make it suddenly amazing.

The Incisor is trying to be a fast weapon, but it doesn't do the sustained dps of a fast weapon, and it doesn't do the high damage per bullet that the slow weapons do.

Saying that "The weapon is fine because Tactical Cloak" is also not a very fair argument. Not everybody is an Infiltrator, even if these are Sniper Rifles. They should be balanced for Soldiers(The primary weapons users) as well.

the reason nobody uses the incisor is because the recoil makes it impossible to actually land 3 headshots with all the bullets.
and I stand by my assertion that the DPS is not at all the reason why people avoid the incisor.

And I mean honestly, I'm a pretty good shot with a sniper rifle, and I can probably compensate for the ridiculouos recoil of the incisor as it is right now.
Are you on origin? I stand by my numbers, and I'm willing to prove it in game if you want.
I usually use my black widow but I'll take on your black widow vs my incisor to show you just how viable it is currently.

the issue with the latter assertion is that infiltrators can get 1.4x base damage to sniper rifles.
sniper rifles up until now, have been balanced to have less damage output than their assault rifle counterparts.
mattock vs raptor for example. And there's a good reason for that.
Infiltrators are sniper users, and while other classes can also use sniper rifles, they'll never make up for the lack of 1.4x base damage.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 11:18 .

[Stardrinker]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Stardrinker wrote...

If you have zero recoil then possibly. Try empty an Inscisor into a Phantom or Prime in under 2 seconds and tell me how many headshots you land.

mhm, the suggested buff was a reduction to the recoil afterall.

Then the Black Widow would have to have higher DPS (relatively speaking) than the Inscisor, because the Inscisor would become burstier (1.6s vs 2s by my calcs) once you take away the accuracy/recoil penalty.

Modifié par Stardrinker, 03 mai 2012 - 11:18 .