Aller au contenu

Photo

Well Thought Out Balance Thread


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
166 réponses à ce sujet

#51
Grimy Bunyip

Grimy Bunyip
  • Members
  • 1 553 messages

Stardrinker wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Stardrinker wrote...

If you have zero recoil then possibly. Try empty an Inscisor into a Phantom or Prime in under 2 seconds and tell me how many headshots you land.


mhm, the suggested buff was a reduction to the recoil afterall.


Then the Black Widow would have to have higher DPS (relatively speaking) than the Inscisor, because the Inscisor would become burstier (1.6s vs 2s by my calcs) once you take away the accuracy/recoil penalty.

you want me to decrease the damage per shot on the incisor if I increase the rate of fire?
would you mind talking it out with cyonan for a bit, he's telling me the exact opposite XD

#52
Dot.Shadow

Dot.Shadow
  • Members
  • 401 messages
I agree with everything, save the cloak duration reductions. Having the little time we have in cloaked mode allows Infiltrators to take down objectives safely, giving them a clear role in a team based game. Reducing the duration basically means pretty much anyone else could be doing the same job with roughly the same safety.

#53
InfamousResult

InfamousResult
  • Members
  • 1 765 messages
Cloak duration isn't the thing that makes Tactical Cloak overpowered.

It's the Cooldown that needs to be changed.

As it stands, people just turn the Tactical Cloak on, shoot, and the recharge is immediately 3 seconds- no less, no more, no matter how much your weapon weighs. It's spammed for pure DPS. Rather than being used as a tactical ability ( Tactical is IN THE NAME ), it's simply used over and over for weapon damage. An Infiltrator can drag the biggest weapon with the highest damage into a match, and not worry about recharge. That's supposed to be the Soldier's job.

They need to make Weight effect the Tactical Cloak EVEN IF you don't use up the whole cloak. So if you had a Recharge Bonus of -100%, and used the Tactical Cloak for the minimum duration, it would recharge in 6 seconds instead ( if I'm doing my math right, I'm not entirely sure ). Or if you had a Recharge Bonus of 200%, and used Tactical Cloak for the minimum duration, it would recharge in 1.50 seconds.

#54
Grimy Bunyip

Grimy Bunyip
  • Members
  • 1 553 messages

InfamousResult wrote...

Cloak duration isn't the thing that makes Tactical Cloak overpowered.

It's the Cooldown that needs to be changed.

As it stands, people just turn the Tactical Cloak on, shoot, and the recharge is immediately 3 seconds- no less, no more, no matter how much your weapon weighs. It's spammed for pure DPS. Rather than being used as a tactical ability ( Tactical is IN THE NAME ), it's simply used over and over for weapon damage. An Infiltrator can drag the biggest weapon with the highest damage into a match, and not worry about recharge. That's supposed to be the Soldier's job.

They need to make Weight effect the Tactical Cloak EVEN IF you don't use up the whole cloak. So if you had a Recharge Bonus of -100%, and used the Tactical Cloak for the minimum duration, it would recharge in 6 seconds instead ( if I'm doing my math right, I'm not entirely sure ). Or if you had a Recharge Bonus of 200%, and used Tactical Cloak for the minimum duration, it would recharge in 1.50 seconds.


i've been over this in other threads so many times XD

I consider the cooldown something that makes infiltrators unique, and makes them one of the few classes that can foot a large weight capacity with minimal penalty.

I consider it a good and interesting mechanic, that should in turn be applied to adrenaline rush and marksman as mentioned in the OP.

But yes, I can see why the cooldown property could be considered overpowered.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 11:26 .


#55
Killahead

Killahead
  • Members
  • 2 444 messages

Atheosis wrote...

You know as I look over all these sweeping changes being proposed I'm struck by how much I just don't like it. Not because they are bad ideas so much as it seems to being trying to reinvent everything when so much progress has been made balance-wise since release. It just feels like you would simply be creating a whole new system prone to new imbalances. I mean right now most weapons are decent and only a few classes just fatlout suck, which is a far cry from when this game was released. I think I'd rather we just keep on the course we are on.


I must say that I agree with this guy, but I have to give kudos to the OP for daring to speak out on the infiltrator class despite it being his most played class. I too love the infiltrator, but looking at the bigger picture it becomes clear that something needs to be done. I sincerely think some changes also could make the class more interesting, as having to weigh pros and cons when setting up a class for me is a big part of the fun. I don't want to have it all. The infiltrator is way to privileged.

But it is the cooldown that needs to be tweaked in my opinion.

Modifié par Killahead, 03 mai 2012 - 11:29 .


#56
Cyonan

Cyonan
  • Members
  • 19 382 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...
the reason nobody uses the incisor is because the recoil makes it impossible to actually land 3 headshots with all the bullets.
and I stand by my assertion that the DPS is not at all the reason why people avoid the incisor.

the issue with the latter assertion is that infiltrators can get 1.4x base damage to sniper rifles.
sniper rifles up until now, have been balanced to have less damage output than their assault rifle counterparts.
mattock vs raptor for example. And there's a good reason for that.
Infiltrators are sniper users, and while other classes can also use sniper rifles, they'll never make up for the lack of 1.4x base damage.


If it was a recoil issue but the weapon's damage was good, you would see Turians and people with Stabilizer Mods wielding it a lot more often.

Infiltrators are a Sniper Rifle wielding class(even if they do use Shotguns a lot these days), so the 40% sniper damage is a fair thing for them. However, I wouldn't argue that all Sniper Rifles do less DPS, but rather that the main ones that see use have poor sustained dps(Compared to the faster weapons that see a lot of use), but very good burst dps.

Having 1 skill of 1 class boost damage by 40% is a very poor reason for the weapon class overall being subpar for everyone else, including the class that is supposed to be a master of all weaponry.

I feel the weapons should all be balanced equally(taking into account the various factors, strengths, weaknesses, etc.) then Infiltrators given Sniper Rifle affinity, Vanguards given Shotgun affinity, and Soldiers given all weapons affinity.

#57
InfamousResult

InfamousResult
  • Members
  • 1 765 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

i've been over this in other threads so many times XD

But yes, I can see why the cooldown property could be overpowered.

I consider the cooldown something that makes infiltrators unique, and makes them one of the few classes that can foot a large weight capacity with minimal penalty.

I consider it a good and interesting mechanic, that should in turn be applied to adrenaline rush and marksman as mentioned in the OP.


No. Footing a large weight capacity with minimal penalty is not the Infiltrator's job- it's the job of a Soldier, or a Sentinel. The purpose of TACTICAL Cloak is to be used Tactically, for Reviving and Objectives, and making escapes. Instead, every Infiltrator and their grandmother just sits back, turns it on, and uses the damage boost to spam DPS with minimal cooldown- wash, rinse, repeat.

The duration of the skill has never been the problem with the class. The problem is the ability to spam the skill, and THAT'S the part that needs to be balanced.

Modifié par InfamousResult, 03 mai 2012 - 11:29 .


#58
ElementL09

ElementL09
  • Members
  • 1 997 messages
You really shouldn't nerf weapons becuase there easier to use (talking about the GPS). The Viper Sniper Rifle is perfectly fine the way it is.

#59
Killahead

Killahead
  • Members
  • 2 444 messages

InfamousResult wrote...
No. Footing a large weight capacity with minimal penalty is not the Infiltrator's job- it's the job of a Soldier, or a Sentinel. The purpose of TACTICAL Cloak is to be used Tactically. Instead, every Infiltrator and their grandmother just sits back, turns it on, and uses the damage boost to spam DPS with minimal cooldown- wash, rinse, repeat.

The duration of the skill has never been the problem with the class. The problem is the ability to spam the skill, and THAT'S the part that needs to be balanced.


Fully agree. They would still be able to pull of those hard hitting shots, but they would have to make them count. I for one think that would make the class more interesting. And the infiltrators could always choose a lighter weapon to make use of the damage option more often. It brings up another issue though, namely that even the Widow isn't that heavy once maxed out (and who hasn't by now?). So I think they have to look at the tactical cloak ability as a whole and do some adjusting.

#60
Dimartica

Dimartica
  • Members
  • 108 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...
Change animation so you hold SMG's properly, instead of like they were pistols

I'd REALLY like this but it will NEVER happen, every N7 opertive when to the Shepard academy holding wepons counter productively.

#61
Killahead

Killahead
  • Members
  • 2 444 messages

ElementL09 wrote...

You really shouldn't nerf weapons becuase there easier to use (talking about the GPS). The Viper Sniper Rifle is perfectly fine the way it is.


Disagree. Skill should be rewarded. The GPS is a massive damage dealer and arguably the easiest weapon to use. Makes no sense to me. How you can call this weapon fine and at the same time claim that the Viper is ok is to me mind blowing (not so much because I think the Viper is crap, but because the GPS is that much better and easier to use and something like 400% more effective on gold).

Modifié par Killahead, 03 mai 2012 - 11:38 .


#62
Stardrinker

Stardrinker
  • Members
  • 92 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Stardrinker wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Stardrinker wrote...

If you have zero recoil then possibly. Try empty an Inscisor into a Phantom or Prime in under 2 seconds and tell me how many headshots you land.


mhm, the suggested buff was a reduction to the recoil afterall.


Then the Black Widow would have to have higher DPS (relatively speaking) than the Inscisor, because the Inscisor would become burstier (1.6s vs 2s by my calcs) once you take away the accuracy/recoil penalty.

you want me to decrease the damage per shot on the incisor if I increase the rate of fire?
would you mind talking it out with cyonan for a bit, he's telling me the exact opposite XD


Cyonan is going under the basis that noone uses Inscisor because Black Widow works effectively under Tac Cloak, and that you can't really do that with Inscisor because of the recoil.

If you wanted to remove the recoil, then it would become, arguably, superior to the Black Widow (by a few tenths of a second) so you'd neeed to have some reason to justify Black Widow having slighly lower burst and being an ultra-rare.

Damager per shot and rate of fire can both affect DPS so it depends on magnitude.

#63
Grimy Bunyip

Grimy Bunyip
  • Members
  • 1 553 messages

Cyonan wrote...

If it was a recoil issue but the weapon's
damage was good, you would see Turians and people with Stabilizer Mods
wielding it a lot more often.

Infiltrators are a Sniper Rifle
wielding class(even if they do use Shotguns a lot these days), so the
40% sniper damage is a fair thing for them. However, I wouldn't argue
that all Sniper Rifles do less DPS, but rather that the main ones that
see use have poor sustained dps(Compared to the faster weapons that see a
lot of use), but very good burst dps.

Having 1 skill of 1 class
boost damage by 40% is a very poor reason for the weapon class overall
being subpar for everyone else, including the class that is supposed to
be a master of all weaponry.

I feel the weapons should all be
balanced equally(taking into account the various factors, strengths,
weaknesses, etc.) then Infiltrators given Sniper Rifle affinity,
Vanguards given Shotgun affinity, and Soldiers given all weapons
affinity.


turians may get stability, but they don't get 1.4x base damage to sniper rifles.
And without that, they will be better off sporting something like a vindicator.

as for the last point, I have considered giving each class various affinities.
But frankly that's really really really complicated.
And if it the current setup didn't already upset people like atheosis who don't want major style changes, adding affinities would just tick them off more.

Also, affinities pigeon hole weapons into certain classes, instead of encouraging experimentation with various class-weapon combinations.

I don't think there's enough to gain from adding affinities to justify their addition.

My in game challenge still stands by the way.
I'm more inclined to agree with stardrinker on this one.
The current incisor has the potential to exceed the black widow in performance.
It is only limited by the recoil.

And likewise, I believe myself to be a good enough sniper to compensate for the incisor's recoil, and would be able to compete toe to toe with another black widow user.
Given the current stats of both the black widow and the incisor.

Killahead wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

No.
Footing a large weight capacity with minimal penalty is not the
Infiltrator's job- it's the job of a Soldier, or a Sentinel. The purpose
of TACTICAL Cloak is to be used Tactically. Instead, every Infiltrator
and their grandmother just sits back, turns it on, and uses the damage
boost to spam DPS with minimal cooldown- wash, rinse, repeat.

The
duration of the skill has never been the problem with the class. The
problem is the ability to spam the skill, and THAT'S the part that needs
to be balanced.


Fully agree. They would still be
able to pull of those hard hitting shots, but they would have to make
them count. I for one think that would make the class more interesting.
And the infiltrators could always choose a lighter weapon to make use of
the damage option more often. It brings up another issue though, namely
that even the Widow isn't that heavy once maxed out (and who hasn't by
now?). So I think they have to look at the tactical cloak ability as a
whole and do some adjusting.


I disagree, no infiltrator would use a javelin if they were not a class that could carry substantial weight.
I also disagree with sentinels being able to carry heavy weight.
They are a tech-biotic class.
The krogan sentinel is a weird exception to this rule because he can be specced in a way that doesn't use powers at all.
But quite frankly, he's a krogan.

Whereas soldier and infiltrator are combat classes, the infiltrator being a combat-tech hybrid.
I think combat classes are those that should be able to carry substantial weight

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 03 mai 2012 - 11:44 .


#64
Flying Spaghetti Monster

Flying Spaghetti Monster
  • Members
  • 38 messages
What I'd like to see for the grenades would be some form of "grenade recharge", for example you'd regenerate one grenade every 30 seconds or so (it could also be a high tier power upgrade, replacing one of those "grenade capacity" upgrades for example). Also, it wouldn't scale with weapon weight to differentiate it from regular powers, and to not punish players for picking heavier weapons (soldier class comes to mind).

Right now I'm hardly ever using grenades, mainly for 2 reasons:
1. Unless you're the only one using grenades on your team, the grenades tend to run out quite quickly.
2. Sometimes ammo crates are simply not available, and especially on gold and/or under heavy fire, running to an ammo crate could be suicide.

Modifié par Flying Spaghetti Monster, 04 mai 2012 - 12:11 .


#65
Killahead

Killahead
  • Members
  • 2 444 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

I disagree, no infiltrator would use a javelin if they were not a class that could carry substantial weight.


I think you might be quoting the wrong guys, because this is our exact point.

Edit: Sorry, misunderstood you. I will edit this post further and get back to you with my point.

Edit 2: With my suggested change they would carry the heavy hitters with the penalty of a longer cooldown, regardless of the duration of their cloak. If said change was to be implemented, then javelin weight would probably have to be tweaked a bit.

Modifié par Killahead, 03 mai 2012 - 11:47 .


#66
ElementL09

ElementL09
  • Members
  • 1 997 messages

Killahead wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

You really shouldn't nerf weapons becuase there easier to use (talking about the GPS). The Viper Sniper Rifle is perfectly fine the way it is.


Disagree. Skill should be rewarded. The GPS is a massive damage dealer and arguably the easiest weapon to use. Makes no sense to me. How you can call this weapon fine and at the same time claim that the Viper is ok is to me mind blowing (not so much because I think the Viper is crap, but because the GPS is that much better and easier to use and something like 400% more effective on gold).


The Viper is ok, I use it with ammo power all the time in gold and silver.  Sure the GPS is easy to use, but if you want "skill should be rewarded" then use the Graal.  Works just like the GPS but you can get headshots with it.

#67
Grimy Bunyip

Grimy Bunyip
  • Members
  • 1 553 messages

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote...

What I'd like to see for the grenades would be some form of "grenade recharge", for example you'd regenerate one grenade every 30 seconds or so (it could also be a high tier power upgrade too, replacing one of those "grenade capacity" upgrades for example). Also, it wouldn't scale with weapon weight to not punish players for picking heavier weapons (soldier class comes to mind).

Right now I'm hardly ever using grenades, mainly for 2 reasons:
1. Unless you're the only one using grenades on your team, the grenades tend to run out quite quickly.
2. Sometimes ammo crates are simply not available, and especially on gold and/or if under heavy fire, running to an ammo crate could be suicide.


that's a distinct and very viable option.
I'll tack it on.
Same setup as I did with grumpy old man, I'll link your post in the OP.
If you don't want me doing that, just tell me.

#68
Flying Spaghetti Monster

Flying Spaghetti Monster
  • Members
  • 38 messages
@ Grimy Bunyip

Sure, go ahead, I don't mind

#69
JGDD

JGDD
  • Members
  • 2 106 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Geth Heavy Melee drains 50% of your total shields, instead of a portion of your base shields.
Geth Heavy Melee cannot be used when you are out of shields.


That's not thought out very well. Geth heavy melee is most effective when used in conjunction with Hunter Mode which already halves the shields once engaged. With your 'nerf' you essentially remove any ability whatsoever to heavy melee and survive beyond minor hit & run scuffles. Geth are just unique enough that one of their powers is passive for all intents and purposes. Remove Hunter Mode from the infiltrator and what else does it have? Proxy mines.

Heavy melee takes the role of other classes second and sometimes third ability. Why would you handicap an already fragile character even more so and think it is balanced?

#70
Cyonan

Cyonan
  • Members
  • 19 382 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

turians may get stability, but they don't get 1.4x base damage to sniper rifles.
And without that, they will be better off sporting something like a vindicator.

as for the last point, I have considered giving each class various affinities.
But frankly that's really really really complicated.
And if it the current setup didn't already upset people like atheosis who don't want major style changes, adding affinities would just tick them off more.

Also, affinities pigeon hole weapons into certain classes, instead of encouraging experimentation with various class-weapon combinations.

I don't think there's enough to gain from adding affinities to justify their addition.



Well we both agree that the weapon has poor stability right now, and if the argument is that it's not that good without the 40% damage buff from TC, it's clearly got poor damage right now as well without TC.

The only reason that anybody could potentially wield the Incisor, is because they have a specific Sniper Rifle affinity and a way to deal with recoil(Which in your case is a buff to stability). Without this affinity the Incisor is still just not a good weapon.

The Infiltrators also have a 40% SR affinity, yet we use Shotguns a lot because of how effective they are. So there would be experimentation.

Modifié par Cyonan, 03 mai 2012 - 11:51 .


#71
Killahead

Killahead
  • Members
  • 2 444 messages

ElementL09 wrote...

The Viper is ok, I use it with ammo power all the time in gold and silver.  Sure the GPS is easy to use, but if you want "skill should be rewarded" then use the Graal.  Works just like the GPS but you can get headshots with it.


Incidentally the graal is my favorite weapon. The problem is that for most players it won't feel as though skill is rewarded when their team mate does equal damage without even working for it with his GPS, hehe. I don't want to see this game flooded with GPS users once everyone levels it up to 10 and discovers how effective it is. I like variation, I like for every choice to seem viable and meaningful. Not necessarily better, but not vastly inferior either. And jack-of-all-trades weapons are boring.

#72
Dot.Shadow

Dot.Shadow
  • Members
  • 401 messages
I see I misunderstood you intentions then.

Nevertheless, I still believe that Cloak should remain as it is. I honestly think it's nice to have a class being capable of putting out some decent small arms damage, instead of just turning it into a biotics/tech fest.

#73
InfamousResult

InfamousResult
  • Members
  • 1 765 messages

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

I disagree, no infiltrator would use a javelin if they were not a class that could carry substantial weight.
I also disagree with sentinels being able to carry heavy weight.
They are a tech-biotic class.
The krogan sentinel is a weird exception to this rule because he can be specced in a way that doesn't use powers at all.
But quite frankly, he's a krogan.

Whereas soldier and infiltrator are combat classes, the infiltrator being a combat-tech hybrid.
I think combat classes are those that should be able to carry substantial weight


Look at the Sentinel classes. What species are playable under Sentinel? Turian and Krogan. Same as Soldier.
And what species are playable under Infiltrator? Quarian and Salarian. Same as Engineer. Tactical classes.

Same thing with Adepts and Vanguards- same species, same basic idea. Biotics.

Infiltrators aren't meant to be a DPS combat class like the Soldier. They are meant to be used for tactics like the Engineer class. The point is that an Infiltrator SHOULD worry about dragging a huge gun like the Javelin onto the battlefield, because it should affect his cooldown, just like every other class in the game. I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but I will, when I say that Tactical Cloak has it's main use in it's very name; if you claim it was meant to be used for pure damage, it should be fairly obvious you are mistaken.

#74
astheoceansblue

astheoceansblue
  • Members
  • 2 075 messages

InfamousResult wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

I disagree, no infiltrator would use a javelin if they were not a class that could carry substantial weight.
I also disagree with sentinels being able to carry heavy weight.
They are a tech-biotic class.
The krogan sentinel is a weird exception to this rule because he can be specced in a way that doesn't use powers at all.
But quite frankly, he's a krogan.

Whereas soldier and infiltrator are combat classes, the infiltrator being a combat-tech hybrid.
I think combat classes are those that should be able to carry substantial weight


Look at the Sentinel classes. What species are playable under Sentinel? Turian and Krogan. Same as Soldier.
And what species are playable under Infiltrator? Quarian and Salarian. Same as Engineer. Tactical classes.

Same thing with Adepts and Vanguards- same species, same basic idea. Biotics.

Infiltrators aren't meant to be a DPS combat class like the Soldier. They are meant to be used for tactics like the Engineer class. The point is that an Infiltrator SHOULD worry about dragging a huge gun like the Javelin onto the battlefield, because it should affect his cooldown, just like every other class in the game. I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but I will, when I say that Tactical Cloak has it's main use in it's very name; if you claim it was meant to be used for pure damage, it should be fairly obvious you are mistaken.


Infiltrators are SUPPOSED top be the big damage dealers. They're like Rogues from an MMO, capable of HUGE damage.

Soldiers are supposed to be the warriors. Able to tank damage as well as deal it, but do neither to the point of speciality. They're more of an everyman class: jack of all, master of none. 

Sentinels are supposed to be the tanks, Paladins if you will. Casters who can also absorb damge better than anyone.

The balance is right between the classes right now in terms of their roles, but I do think the Infiltrator could use a little tweaking. I don't think we should pound them with a nerf hammer, and I think removing duration and ED's ability to recharge during cloak are horrible ideas. The trick would be to tweak the CD perhaps, but not to the point that it cripples the classes ability to carry heavier weapons and remain effective.

Perhaps something like:
200% CD = 2 second recharge
100% CD = 4 Second Recharge
0% CD = 6 Second recharge.

Modifié par astheoceansblue, 04 mai 2012 - 12:04 .


#75
Atheosis

Atheosis
  • Members
  • 3 519 messages

InfamousResult wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

I disagree, no infiltrator would use a javelin if they were not a class that could carry substantial weight.
I also disagree with sentinels being able to carry heavy weight.
They are a tech-biotic class.
The krogan sentinel is a weird exception to this rule because he can be specced in a way that doesn't use powers at all.
But quite frankly, he's a krogan.

Whereas soldier and infiltrator are combat classes, the infiltrator being a combat-tech hybrid.
I think combat classes are those that should be able to carry substantial weight


Look at the Sentinel classes. What species are playable under Sentinel? Turian and Krogan. Same as Soldier.
And what species are playable under Infiltrator? Quarian and Salarian. Same as Engineer. Tactical classes.

Same thing with Adepts and Vanguards- same species, same basic idea. Biotics.

Infiltrators aren't meant to be a DPS combat class like the Soldier. They are meant to be used for tactics like the Engineer class. The point is that an Infiltrator SHOULD worry about dragging a huge gun like the Javelin onto the battlefield, because it should affect his cooldown, just like every other class in the game. I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but I will, when I say that Tactical Cloak has it's main use in it's very name; if you claim it was meant to be used for pure damage, it should be fairly obvious you are mistaken.


I would agree with you but the actual design of the game seems to indicate you are wrong.  Honestly though I wish you were right and weight affected TC more while it didn't give quite so much bonus damage.