166 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

@ GP

GPS Nerf
Your argument is a straw man.
I never once mentioned the graal, yet you are asserting that based on my logic, the graal would be nerfed into a non-caster weapon as well.

  Actually, your argument is a straw man, and you indicate here that you misunderstood (and, as such, have misrepresented) what I said.  I never said you nerfed the Graal or would do anything to the Graal at all, and claiming such is disingenuous.

Here's what I actually said again for the reading comprehension challenged.

You're making it the same weight as the Claymore.  Why would I not
just use the Claymore?  And don't forget that for the Asari, the GRAAL
is much better than the GPS, and yet you've done nothing to that
CASTER weapon.  You know who doesn't give one single damn about the
weight increase?  Geth Infiltrators.  Especially since your duration
changes make weight matter even less to them now!

My statement points out that you nerfed a weapon for being "too good on casters" when another weapon that weighs the same and fills the same slot arguably works even better on two of the best casters, thus adding additional support to my argument that your "balance" change is unnecessary and actually hurts the wrong classes.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 02:56 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

@ GP

GPS Nerf
Your argument is a straw man.
I never once mentioned the graal, yet you are asserting that based on my logic, the graal would be nerfed into a non-caster weapon as well.

  Actually, your argument is a straw man, and you indicate hear that you completely misunderstood (and, as such, have misrepresented) what I said.  I never said you nerfed the Graal, you disingenuous ****.

That's enough.
I have no desire to talk to you anymore if that's the attitude you're going to take.
I've not once insulted you or anyone else this entire thread.

whereas you have have called my balance suggestions questionably sane, you have implied that I lack a basic understanding of the game, and now you have called me a "disingenous ****"

Once again, That's enough. Go away, I will not be responding to you anymore.

[GodlessPaladin]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...
I've not once insulted you or anyone else this entire thread.

  Oh yes you have.  There is little greater insult to me than what you just bloody did, which was outright lie about what I said and then accuse ME of straw manning YOU.  I do not appreciate having my words blatantly misrepresented, and doing so IS disingenuous of you.  You cannot have a civil argument if you outright lie about whatthe person you're arguing with is saying.

Also, the thing that got censored wasn't actually a four-letter word.  These forums are weird <_<

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 12:44 .

[Wesus]

OP sounds

[GodlessPaladin]

whereas you have have called my balance suggestions questionably sane, you have implied that I lack a basic understanding of the game, and now you have called me a "disingenous ****"

The only one of those that is actually true is the last one, and you don't know what the second word was supposed to be. It wasn't a four letter word. Stupid forums. Anyways, I stand by the assertion that you are being a disingenuous jerk, and this quote from you further supports that assertion.

I never said your balance suggestions were questionably sane or implied that you lacked a basic understanding of the game.  And yet you come out saying that I am the one using straw man arguments.  Cute.

I assume the statements you are replying to and twisting into straw men are these ones:

  Yes, it's specifically an SI buff because the SI benefits the most from sniper rifles which don't need an AP mod, easily. 
A huge buff to the Black Widow/Mantis/Javelin/Widow means a huge buff
to the Salarian Infiltrator because that is where the Salarian
Infiltrator is super happy.  That is not a "stretch," it's an inference
that comes from a basic understanding of game design.  If you change a given character's favored tools in a way that favors them, you buff that character.

I am pointing out that my statement is not a stretch, but rather is supported by a basic tenet of game design, which I then summarized.  You apparently take any disagreement with your position as an attack on you personally.  <_<

That one actually makes a lot of sense and is one of the saner
suggestions on there

I can't think of any other instance you could be referring to for the sanity comment because it's the only place where I use a variant of the word "sane."  Here, I was actually DEFENDING your position, and you take it as a personal attack.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 01:00 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The only one of those that is actually true is the last one

In my own defense:

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That one actually makes a lot of  sense and is one of the saner suggestions on there... amidst some really
out there ones like cutting off a guy's ability to earn credits for two
full weeks for no reason.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That is not a "stretch," it's an inference that comes from a basic understanding of game design.

as for the rest, I said I'm done with the conversation and I mean it.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 05 mai 2012 - 12:59 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The only one of those that is actually true is the last one

In my own defense:

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That one actually makes a lot of  sense and is one of the saner suggestions on there... amidst some really
out there ones like cutting off a guy's ability to earn credits for two
full weeks for no reason.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That is not a "stretch," it's an inference that comes from a basic understanding of game design.

as for the rest, I said I'm done with the conversation and I mean it.

...Aren't those the same quotes I just reposted myself?

What's funny is that you use the same sort of statements that I do when you disagree, yet I don't take offense.  For example, I say that some of your suggestions are "out there."  You say that my suggestion is "a stretch," which means the same thing.  And then you get offended when I contend that it is not, but I don't get offended when you defend your position.

Exaggerating statements like "my counterpoint is based on a fundamental tenet of game design" to "you have no basic understanding of any aspect of the game" is a straw man argument.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 01:28 .

[Drummernate]

I agree with about 35% of this...

I will elaborate later, I have to quote stuff... :S




(Ahhhhh looks like Godless is on his "Straw man, logic, falacy rant... that he does every single day."... good luck with that.) <_<

Modifié par Drummernate, 05 mai 2012 - 01:14 .

[GodlessPaladin]

[quote]Drummernate wrote...

I agree with about 35% of this...

I will elaborate later, I have to quote stuff... :S[/quote]  35% doesn't seem too far off.  Here's my response to a bunch of quotes.


[quote]Grimy Bunyip wrote...
Buffs
[quote] Sniper Rifles
M-90 Indra
Weight Increased to [2.5-2.0]
Damage increased to [87.9-109.9]

1.05x sustained DPS of Valiant (ignoring TC), making it the highest DPS sniper rifle.
Extra weight needed to differentiate it from the raptor.
Most damage per magazine, but it takes 2.88 seconds to empty the clip.
Notably, 2.88 seconds is longer than the 2.13 damage boost window on Tactical Cloak

M-97 Viper
Rate of Fire Increased to 85
The Viper does not put its large magazine size and swift reload to full use due to its low rate of fire

M-29 Incisor
Recoil decreased to 0.131
The current incisor can match the sustained DPS of a black widow. So no DPS buff
[/quote]
[quote] SMGs
M-12 Locust
Damage increased to [50.0-62.5]
0.914x sustained DPS of Tempest. But of course, more accurate.

Geth Plasma SMG
Damage increased to [24.0-30.0]
1.024x the burst DPS of the Tempest AFTER the Geth SMG has achieved maximum rate of fire.
[/quote]
[quote] Shotguns
M11 Wraith
Rate of Fire increased to 100
Damage increased to [110.0-137.5] per slug
Reload time increased to 2.57
1.083x sustained DPS of claymore, 1.33x total damage per reload of claymore
Extra DPS and total damage per reload comes at the cost extra time exposed to fire.
Extra reload time was necessary to keep the wraith's now impressive burst DPS in check.

N7 Crusader
Damage increased to [525.0-700.1]
1.186x more sustained DPS than a paladin
Keep the weight, it's the only unique as the only unscoped precision weapon of its weight class.
If you reduce the weight, you turn it into another saber/paladin clone.
[/quote]
[quote] Pistols
N7 Eagle
Accuracy Increased to 65
Recoil decreased to 0.131
Damage increased to [95-118.8]
Spare clips decreased to [72-90]
A simple DPS buff would turn the eagle into another shuriken or SMG. I don't want that
1.122x sustained DPS of Arc Pistol on full auto
Boosted accuracy and reduced recoil will make the eagle feel unique.
[/quote]
[quote] Assault Rifles
M-99 Saber
Rate of Fire increased to 125
1.053x more DPS than the paladin
Extra rate of fire will put the large magazine size of the saber to better use.

M-8 Avenger
Increase damage to [45.0-56.3]
Increase accuracy to 35, AR's should have better accuracy than most SMG's
1.097x sustained DPS of shuriken.

M-15 Vindicator
Increase accuracy to 55, Vindicator's are one of the more accurate AR's

Phaeston
increase damage to [48.0-60.0]
Increase accuracy to 35, AR's should have better accuracy than most SMG's
1.098x sustained DPS of vindicator, which is lighter, more accurate, etc.

Geth Pulse Rifle
Increase damage to [36.0-45.0]
Increase accuracy to 55, Geth Pulse Rifle's are one of the more accurate AR's
about 10% more DPS than the proposed previously proposed avenger

M-76 Revenant
Damage increased to [80.0-100.0]
Weight restored to [2.0-1.4]
Increase accuracy to 35, AR's should have better accuracy than most SMG's
1.049x the DPS of the hurricane
[/quote][/quote]

You seem to put a lot of weight on sustained DPS, when things like burst damage or utility are more important for most situations. I only really care about sustained DPS on something like an Atlas or Banshee, and DPS on a banshee or prime kinda has to take accuracy into account.

[quote] Miscellaneous
Rolling, Sidestepping, Stun
No class that lacks sidestepping is considered OP right now.
Turians had rolling in the beta, and it was only removed because players complained.[/quote] People complained about rolling? Whyyy?

Anyways, I'm all for rolling Turians.

[quote]Make krogans immune to stun lock from geth and sync kills from phantoms.[/quote] Yeah, krogan stun is pretty awful and should have something done about it. Sync kills against phantoms seems okay, just because it seems like those only happen on flukes (e.g. they grab you out of a melee charge or something).

[quote]Sniper Rifle Enhanced Scope
Accuracy is useless on a sniper rifle.
Increase weapon stability by [15%-35%]
Provide a radar with 20m radius
Added ability to adjust zoom/FoV[/quote] Providing a radar is a big deal, and a really unnecessary buff to Salarian Infiltrators (who already benefit the most from the Enhanced Scope).

[quote]SMG Scope
I find the idea of scoping one's SMG to be rather silly.
Replace the scope with a smart choke similar to that of an SMG[/quote]
http://www.rookscast...te/sg1mp5_1.jpg

[quote]Sidearm Incentives
Weapon Switching time equals half of the reload time of the currently wielded weapon.
You may animation cancel to further halve weapon switching time.
Unequipped weapons weigh half as much as normal.[/quote] Sure, why not? As is, there's little cause to hold a second weapon.

[quote]Magazine upgrade is fairly underpowered, with the exception of the paladin perhaps.
Update the magazine mod so it also reloads your gun when switching weapons[/quote] Don't forget the Graal and GPS liking extra clips too. Anyways, the idea of a mod that cools down your clips while not using the gun seems interesting. You could even make it recharge ammo.

[quote]Weight & Melee Damage
I'm stealing this idea from another thread I read .
Make heavier weapons deal more melee damage, with the exception of sniper rifles.
And make sure higher ranked weapons deal more damage in spite of their weight reduction.[/quote]

Whaaa? Why? You must realize that this change benefits infiltrators, especiallythe Geth Infiltrator, more than anyone else, because Infiltrators don't care about weapon weight and love the Claymore.  It also makes your GPS "nerf" a GPS buff for Geth Infiltrators.

[quote] Powers
Pull
Rank 5 Expose Evolution now strips plating off of atlases, brutes, armored cannibals/husks, etc.
Stripping off plating will deal relevant one time spike damage when appropriate.
Rank 4 Duration Evolution replaced with double pull.
Make pull instant cast, through light cover and thin walls.

The issue with using pull to pluck enemies out of cover, is that it moves so slow.
You don't want to wait for the projectile to hit the target before you can start shooting it.[/quote] Meh. Still wouldn't use Pull.

[quote]
Shockwave
Increase the base damage to 600[/quote] Yow! That makes it hit harder than Carnage in a larger area and through walls, not to mention setting off BEs.

[quote]Grenades
Restock grenades after each wave. You can restock in between waves, but it isn't fun.[/quote] Yay! Yeah, that stuff is really tedious.
[quote]Make the cooldown scale with duration, similar to tactical cloak.[/quote]
Eh? They're grenades.

[quote]Adrenaline Rush/Marksman
Add the ability to manually deactivate either power by simply turning it off or casting a new power.[/quote] Yes! But only if we also get the ability to reload cancel for free on the 360 (like you can on the PC).

[quote]Concussive shot
Concussive shot is arguably like throw, but slower to recharge and doesnt trigger BE's
Guns are arguably a more efficient way to deliver ammo powers than amplification as well
Turn this into a CC ability by making it stun for up to 3 seconds, with diminishing returns.[/quote] Uhm, it already staggers or knocks down enemies.

[quote]Submission Net
Deal double damage vs armor[/quote] Sure why not.

[quote]Tech Armor
Remove cooldown and animation delay after detonation[/quote] Cool!
[quote]Squad Tech Armor: Apply the stats of tech armor to teammates at half effectiveness. Squad tech armor cannot be detonated, and will not delete existing armor powers.[/quote] Could be interesting.
[quote]Detonating tech armor will reset cooldowns for all allies like it did in ME2, but no more than one reset every 12 seconds.[/quote] Neeeh... it lacks the tactical precision it would have with a squad and seems kinda spammy instead.
[quote]Detonating tech armor will restore shields to yourself and nearby allies, but no more than once every 12 seconds.[/quote] Where are we seeing this 12 second timer?

[quote]Sabotage
Make Rank 6 Vulnerability Evolution affect tech bursts[/quote] Yes!

[quote]-25% cloak duration for Tactical Cloak Rank 5 Melee Evolution
-50% cloak duration for Tactical Cloak Rank 6 Sniper Evolution[/quote] Barely even care for anything other than device objectives and revivng teammates.

[quote]Energy drain no longer restores shields while cloaked[/quote] I don't see this being much of a hindrance so much as it just seems unintuitive.
[quote]Geth Heavy Melee drains 50% of your total shields, after factoring in fitness and hunter mode.
Geth Heavy Melee cannot be used when you are out of shields.[/quote] That would slow down the train a little, since I would have to actually wait for my shields to recharge. Just makes shield recharge cells an even more obvious choice for the GI than before.

[quote]Geth Plasma Shotgun Weight increased to [2.5-2.0]
This nerf is not inherently an infiltrator nerf, so I will elaborate.
My issue with the GPS is two-fold. It's a noob tube that takes little skill to use.
And it can be slapped onto any class, and make that class good.
I'm not going to deal with the former since I think the game needs noob tubes of some sort.
Not everybody can be a great shot.
As for the latter, the weight increase will discourage certain classes from picking up this weapon.[/quote] It will discourage Soldiers from taking it, and won't discourage Infiltrators. Asari already probably do better with the Graal because of stasis headshots. Vanguards would stop using it because if they were going to use a Power Efficiency Module they'd rather take a Claymore.

[quote]Pistol Scope
Pistols are somewhat OP, because the scope allows them to be used like a sniper rifle.
Replace the pistol scope with a laser pointer.
Reduce Accuracy bonus to [5%-15%][/quote] Completely unnecessary, since pistols don't outclass sniper rifles in the hands of sniping classes, and there are nice alternative choices for casters already besides a scoped pistol.

[quote]Changes
According to the codex, which you can find here:
Nemesis have implants that let them field widows. And they definitely fire like they have widows.
So replace their gun with a widow.[/quote] Hah, yeah. Why the heck are they holding a Raptor?

[quote]Grenades for geth, but at reduced throwing distance than cerberus or reapers to emphasize their slow pressure strategy.[/quote] Sure.

[quote]Copy halo reach's punitive system for idle boosting. 24 hour ban for the first time caught idle boosting. 2 week ban for the second offense. So forth.
[/quote]

I see you changed the original suggestion, right after getting upset at me for questioning its reasonableness.  Hmmm...

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Drummernate wrote...

I agree with about 35% of this...

I will elaborate later, I have to quote stuff... :S




(Ahhhhh looks like Godless is on his "Straw man, logic, falacy rant... that he does every single day."... good luck with that.) <_<

35% I'm honored.
I look forward to your post
just keep in mind I'm probably gonna elaborate the front page a bit more.
I tried to be brief, but that's seemingly caused more confusion than it's worth.

Also, I've started using quotation boxes to organize stuff.
Pretty, isnt it?

as for GP, he sent me an apology over messages.
he also offered to make a public apology, but that's not necessary.
As for me, I apologize for calling one of GP's arguments a strawman.
My OP lacked information, and seeing as GP isn't psychic, he's entitled to fill in the numerous holes I left in my explanations.

I'll start working on making the OP a little more detailed.
Hopefully it will clear up a few concerns that other players have had.

[GodlessPaladin]

I said I am sorry if I offended you, since I don't intend to insult people personally... only to disagree with their opinions in a blunt and straightforward manner. 

Grimy Bunyip wrote...
As for me, I apologize for calling one of GP's arguments a strawman.

  I appreciate that.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[ZombieGambit]

I totally disagree with the Phaeston. It shouldn't be more powerful than the Avenger if it has a larger magazine and less recoil to begin with.

Having the Phaeston do more damage than the Avenger would make the Avenger completely pointless.

[Grimy Bunyip]

To anybody in reading this thread in general:
I want feedback on how I should calculate sustained and burst DPS in a way that factors in human error.
If you're interested, read the proposal below.
Thanks

GodlessPaladin wrote...

You seem to put a lot of weight on sustained DPS, when things like burst damage or utility are more important for most situations. I only really care about sustained DPS on something like an Atlas or Banshee, and DPS on a banshee or prime kinda has to take accuracy into account.

Yeah, a few people pointed this out earlier.
My #1 reason for doing this is because sustained dps is easy to calculate from an objective perspective.
whereas burst DPS is much more subjective.

For example, single shot weapons, obviously they don't have infinite burst DPS.
but how much burst DPS they have very very much depends on how much time each player wastes on each burst cycle.

If you're interested, You, I, and some other players can agree to a set of "loss" parameters
I'll explain these loss parameters in the OP.
And all sustained and burst DPS numbers will be calculated from those parameters.
that way I have a, reasonably objective burst DPS number to place on each weapon.

Once I have a burst DPS for every weapon, I will start factoring burst DPS into weapon balance more consistently.
And edit the front page posts as appropriate.

Sound good?

If so here's the starting proposal I'm going to make:

Proposal:

0.04 second min refire loss.
raptor has 0.15 second min refire.
I fired 4 full clips of a raptor in game
once with a spam clicker I coded with AHK
and 3 times by manually spamming my mouse key.
I vidded myself with fraps, and counted the frames.

I averaged a min refire of 0.20 seconds with my spam clicker.
I guess the program I used has a spam click limit, that is actually below human capacity.
the remaining 3 times I manually clicked, I got 0.18-0.20 second refire times.

hence I am proposing a universal 0.04 second min refire loss when calculating burst and sustained DPS for all non-automatic weapons.

0.5 second Burst Cycle Loss:
This is a vague number.
I've never frapsed myself trying to do weapon bursts in and out of cover.
I'm open to other suggestions on this one.
Alternatively I can fraps myself firing a gun a few times.

I'll have to get back to you on the other topics.

[Grimy Bunyip]

ZombieGambit wrote...

I totally disagree with the Phaeston. It shouldn't be more powerful than the Avenger if it has a larger magazine and less recoil to begin with.

Having the Phaeston do more damage than the Avenger would make the Avenger completely pointless.

you're absolutely correct.

i was looking at the stat bar accuracy (which isn't the actual number used for accuracy)
and it said the phaeston and avenger had equal accuracy.

When I looked closer at the min and max aim error, I found that the phaeston was in fact more accurate than the avenger.

My mistake, I will correct for this.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 05 mai 2012 - 03:25 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

SMG Scope
I find the idea of scoping one's SMG to be rather silly.
Replace the scope with a smart choke similar to that of an SMG

http://www.rookscast...te/sg1mp5_1.jpg

fair enough.
I propose the smart choke as an additional mod in addition to the scope then.
Trying to control kickback while scoped is oddly frustrating.
And firing out of cover without holding my "zoom" button feels very weird.

[Grimy Bunyip]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Weight & Melee Damage
I'm stealing this idea from another thread I read .
Make heavier weapons deal more melee damage, with the exception of sniper rifles.
And make sure higher ranked weapons deal more damage in spite of their weight reduction.

Whaaa? Why? You must realize that this change benefits infiltrators, especiallythe Geth Infiltrator, more than anyone else, because Infiltrators don't care about weapon weight and love the Claymore.  It also makes your GPS "nerf" a GPS buff for Geth Infiltrators.

that's a good point.
lemme add geth heavy melee as another exception to this rule XD
as you don't actually use your weapon to melee with their shield pulse.
might as well toss in biotic punch and batarian punch and all non-weapon melees while I'm at it.
this encompasses all heavy melees doesn't it? since they all involve omni tools and other things.

That's fine, I liked this idea moreso as an atmospheric sort of thing than a real game balance changer.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 05 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[Axialbloom]

Arc Pistol sucks.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Axialbloom wrote...

Arc Pistol sucks.

agreed, but I think I have enough fixing to do with the changes I've already proposed.
They need a little tweaking.
I promise I'll get to the arc pistol eventually

[GodlessPaladin]

The thing is that the real, objective utility of a weapon must account for much more than DPS. You say it's easy to make an objective comparison of weapons in terms of DPS, but I'd contend that more accurately it's easy to make a comparison that looks good to people who don't understand why statistics are so easy to make misleading.

You care about how efficiently you are killing enemies, and a lot of things go into that.  For example, you don't get bonus points for doing damage past the point an enemy is already dead (or for doing excess damage stopped by a shield gate).  Can you hit an enemy through a wall and still one-shot them?  How about in the body instead of the head?  How much faster are you able to clear out the enemy force due to a radius or the ability to bounce around walls?  How good is a gun at applying or synergizing with ammo effects?  How well does a gun completement your powers?  Can you one-shot a given enemy with a given build or equipment bonus or not?  What about other utility like being able to stagger enemies?  How would I hurt a phantom with this weapon?  A guardian?  Do you have to stay out of cover in order to get your DPS out, or can you safely pop in and out of a right-hand-advantage soft cover and thus keep on plugging away without waiting for your shields to recharge?  Et cetera.

For example, the Graal is generally worse than the GPS... until you headshot with it.  But even then it's hard to hit with because you have to lead the target... until you have powers that stagger or freeze enemies to make their movement predictable.  And then you're one-shotting phantoms all day.

Another example is the argument of pistols vs sniper rifles.  The Black Widow will mow down a row of guardians with one shot... the Paladin isn't doing that for me, especially if I scoped it.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...
[quote] Powers
Pull
Rank 5 Expose Evolution now strips plating off of atlases, brutes, armored cannibals/husks, etc.
Stripping off plating will deal relevant one time spike damage when appropriate.
Rank 4 Duration Evolution replaced with double pull.
Make pull instant cast, through light cover and thin walls.

The issue with using pull to pluck enemies out of cover, is that it moves so slow.
You don't want to wait for the projectile to hit the target before you can start shooting it.[/quote] Meh. Still wouldn't use Pull.[/quote]
what would you suggest then?

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...
[quote]
Shockwave
Increase the base damage to 600[/quote] Yow! That makes it hit harder than Carnage in a larger area and through walls, not to mention setting off BEs.[/quote]
Yeah, I kinda threw out tha 600 number since it was equal to the force XD
didn't really think it through.
What value would you suggest?

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...
[quote]Grenades
Restock grenades after each wave. You can restock in between waves, but it isn't fun.[/quote] Yay! Yeah, that stuff is really tedious.
[quote]Make the cooldown scale with duration, similar to tactical cloak.[/quote]
Eh? They're grenades.
[/quote]
that was a typo, the cooldown scale with duration was meant for adrenaline rush and marksman

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...
[quote]Adrenaline Rush/Marksman
Add the ability to manually deactivate either power by simply turning it off or casting a new power.[/quote] Yes! But only if we also get the ability to reload cancel for free on the 360 (like you can on the PC).
[/quote] I'll add a comment about that.

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...
[quote]Concussive shot
Concussive shot is arguably like throw, but slower to recharge and doesnt trigger BE's
Guns are arguably a more efficient way to deliver ammo powers than amplification as well
Turn this into a CC ability by making it stun for up to 3 seconds, with diminishing returns.[/quote] Uhm, it already staggers or knocks down enemies.
[/quote]I didn't know that, I'll delete concussive shot off the list for now then.

[Drummernate]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Shockwave
Increase the base damage to 600

Yow! That makes it hit harder than Carnage in a larger area and through walls, not to mention setting off BEs.

Yeah, I kinda threw out tha 600 number since it was equal to the force XD
didn't really think it through.
What value would you suggest?

I would say about 300-400 anything higher makes it a bit too good.

I wish my throw did 1200+ damage....

Modifié par Drummernate, 05 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The thing is that the real, objective utility of a weapon must account for much more than DPS. You say it's easy to make an objective comparison of weapons in terms of DPS, but I'd contend that more accurately it's easy to make a comparison that looks objective to people who don't know why statistics are so easy to make misleading.

You care about how efficiently you are killing enemies, and a lot of things go into that.  For example, you don't get bonus points for doing damage past the point an enemy is already dead.  Can you hit an enemy through a wall and still one-shot them?  How about in the body instead of the head?  How much faster are you able to clear out the enemy force due to a radius or the ability to bounce around walls?  How good is a gun at applying or synergizing with ammo effects?  How well does a gun completement your powers?

For example, the Graal is generally worse than the GPS... until you headshot with it.  But even then it's hard to hit with because you have to lead the target... until you have powers that stagger or freeze enemies to make their movement predictable.

Another example is the argument of pistols vs sniper rifles.  The Black Widow will mow down a row of guardians with one shot... the Paladin isn't doing that for me, especially if I scoped it.

true, but I still like to ground my arguments in numbers to at least some extent.
As long as there is another comparable weapon, DPS numbers will let me compare them to one another, even if comparing a GPS to a graal might be much more challenging based on just the DPS.

it's a better than nothing kinda tool.
Are you against the idea of setting up a DPS system that accounts for human error?
I think it'd be nice if I could slap on a sustained and burst DPS number on every weapon.
It definitely wouldn't weaken the argument.

[Grimy Bunyip]

Drummernate wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Shockwave
Increase the base damage to 600

Yow! That makes it hit harder than Carnage in a larger area and through walls, not to mention setting off BEs.

Yeah, I kinda threw out tha 600 number since it was equal to the force XD
didn't really think it through.
What value would you suggest?

I would say about 300-400 anything higher makes it a bit too good.

I wish my throw did 1200+ damage....

alrighty, you got it, changing it to 350

[GodlessPaladin]

Speaking of DPS, some people look at the Arc Pistol and think "Wow, how could that gun be bad? It has 803 DPS, plus the utility of charging!  I mean, the Paladin only has 80 more DPS than that, right?"

But then some might notice that it has 550 ROF. This is a gun that actually expects you to be clicking the button almost as fast as the Hurricane sprays bullets in order to get its DPS (600 ROF on the Hurricane, and both lack refire rates). And I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not using a modded controller, so that's pretty inconvenient.  Even if I click the button that fast, that effort is definitely affecting my aim.

Also, of course, unlike the Carnifex or Paladin, if you're firing rapidly you are A)  exposed to enemy fire and thus cannot actually sustain your offense consistently,    sacrificing some damage each time the stream is interrupted by the firing of a power or some other action, C)  not headshotting all day every day and D)  taking a bigger penalty from enemy damage mitigation, which matters quite a bit for most of the enemies that you actually are going to want to sustain fire on for a matter of multiple seconds (e.g. banshees, atlasses, et cetera).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[Killahead]

Again I would like to point out that carrying two weapons (that neither are light pistols/smgs) is choosing to be a weapon specialist. You sacrifice the ability to cast powers frequently. On classes were you find this to be a viable option you will probably put points into weapon damage instead of power damage. There's a dynamic at play here, that will be ruined if your sidearm suddenly weighs less when not equipped. Having to make these kind of choices is what makes the game interesting, just like when you choose evolutions in the build trees, you sacrifice something for something else.

I can run with two heavy weapons on my krogan sentinel, but I can't use powers effectively, most likely will I ignore incinerate in my build.
Now, on my krogan soldier I have very good powers in carnage and inferno grenades. I choose to put my points into power damage for this reason. Now, I need a good weapon, but I can't carry both an assault rifle and a shotgun, as this will drastically increase my cooldown for carnage.

Everyone knows this. The point is that by forcing me to limit myself this way, the game encourages different play styles and distinct roles for classes and setups. For me this is one of the greatest things about the game. Every modern game does this in one way or another, but I find the power/weight mechanics to be a very interesting feature when combined with all the build options and number of weapons in this game.

Reducing the weight of a carried weapon when not equipped would ruin this system and bring less variety to the game. Now, I have no reason to believe that Bioware would even consider this, but I get a bit freaked out when I notice that some players actually support it, haha.

Also, we have light sidearms, they are called pistols and smgs and do not punish you very much at all.