262 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

This was a bad move by BioWare. Morinth should have replaced Samara in the Ardat-Yakshi monastery mission if you chose her in ME2.

[Reorte]

Bad King wrote...

This was a bad move by BioWare. Morinth should have replaced Samara in the Ardat-Yakshi monastery mission if you chose her in ME2.

As much as I hate Morinth it would have been an interesting side of her character. I doubt that anyone is 100% bad, even if they're 99%.

[PsyrenY]

I wouldn'tve minded Morinth in the monastery, so long as I got an option to rectify my mistake and kill her there.

[The Angry One]

Eromenos wrote...

Morinth was nothing more than cheesy "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation from the all-male ME2 dudebro writers.

Three of the ten writers for ME3 are women. Either way Morinth ends up as a stain, and a stain without comment if it happens in ME3. I definitely call this a payoff. 

You really think that's the reason? Give me a break. It's pure laziness.

Also, Morinth doesn't bother me that much so I don't know why you think the writers being women has anything to do with it.
Then again that may be because I consider Samara as much of a sociopath as Morinth, if not worse. Plus, death by snu-snu is probably the most hilarious derp-Shep way to go shortofpickingacolour.

[Shepardtheshepard]

Seifer006 wrote...
it's Mornith. The same thing happens to Jack when you're in the Ceberus Base and also to Legion.

it's pathetic really. The laziness of the writers or the fact the game was "rushed" really shows how awful the different choices you make really don't matter.

To cut Bioware some slack here, I'm pretty sure that only happens if you ignore the Grissom academy mission. And if we purposely ignore missions, then we can't really moan at the lack of content (in that area I mean).
But yes with the other two. Presenting us with a big choice regarding who we can take with us, should have big results. 

[Eromenos]

p__q wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Morinth was nothing more than cheesy "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation from the all-male ME2 dudebro writers.

Three of the ten writers for ME3 are women. Either way Morinth ends up as a stain, and a stain without comment if it happens in ME3. I definitely call this a payoff. 

you call it a pay off that one of the big moral decisions in ME2 is essentialy written off because you didn't like the character?

I always chose to save the rachni queen but im by no means glad that the people who chose differently got screwed over because at the end of the day it's just sheer laziness on the writers part to disregard such choices and it should by no means be seen as a good thing.

What moral decision? Do you mean the black-and-white choice between two doppleganger blue chicks in anime-stripper poses and catsuits?

I hated, actually. I hated Morinth. Just as I hated TIM. And Kelly Chambers. The first two are guaranteed to die with a whimper in ME3, and the third one can also die and only be referenced as an afterthought. So yes, very fitting for all of them. I don't respect ME2 as a whole because it tried to glorify cheesy examples like those three as if they pass for "dark" or "edgy." The imaginings of Omega's criminal culture were just fantasies of repressed nerds for other repressed nerds.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 mai 2012 - 09:37 .

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Morinth was nothing more than cheesy "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation from the all-male ME2 dudebro writers.

Three of the ten writers for ME3 are women. Either way Morinth ends up as a stain, and a stain without comment if it happens in ME3. I definitely call this a payoff. 

You really think that's the reason? Give me a break. It's pure laziness.

Also, Morinth doesn't bother me that much so I don't know why you think the writers being women has anything to do with it.
Then again that may be because I consider Samara as much of a sociopath as Morinth, if not worse. Plus, death by snu-snu is probably the most hilarious derp-Shep way to go shortofpickingacolour.

Not picking a color results in the Reapers destroying the Crucible and a critical mission failure, effectively making "pick a color" the anti-derp way to go.  And Samara's hangup isn't that she's a sociopath, it's that she sees the world in moral absolutes which doesn't work when the reality is in shades of gray, not black and white.  Morinth, on the other hand, is an unrepentant serial killer, so she's still worse no matter how you look at it.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 09:40 .

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Not picking a color results in the Reapers destroying the Crucible and a critical mission failure, effectively making "pick a color" the anti-derp way to go.

And then the fleet conventionally defeats the Reapers, Harbinger and the Catalyst die like the worthless, genocidal dogs they are, the Reaper fleet goes into disarray and the tide is turned. The galaxy is saved.

This is speculation and therefore canon.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 mai 2012 - 09:39 .

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
And then the fleet conventionally defeats the Reapers, Harbinger and the Catalyst die like the worthless, genocidal dogs they are, the Reaper fleet goes into disarray and the tide is turned. The galaxy is saved.

This is speculation and therefore canon.

Yeah maybe a glass canon!  Oh snap etc.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 09:43 .

[Eromenos]

The Angry One wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Morinth was nothing more than cheesy "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation from the all-male ME2 dudebro writers.

Three of the ten writers for ME3 are women. Either way Morinth ends up as a stain, and a stain without comment if it happens in ME3. I definitely call this a payoff. 

You really think that's the reason? Give me a break. It's pure laziness.

Also, Morinth doesn't bother me that much so I don't know why you think the writers being women has anything to do with it.
Then again that may be because I consider Samara as much of a sociopath as Morinth, if not worse. Plus, death by snu-snu is probably the most hilarious derp-Shep way to go shortofpickingacolour.

Who says laziness isn't a factor? This time the laziness suits me instead of the dudebro gamers. Suits me quite well.

There are zero asari chicks in ME3 that get to behave as Morinth or Sha'ira did, and Liara's stalker habits were toned back a crapton. Off the top of my head, I think Diana Allers is the only female npc in ME3 who is allowed to be an obvious sex toy and little else. And even she can be skipped. Emily Wong was practically Kelly Chambers of ME1, and we see where they both end up. The nightclub servers and dancers are there, but they seem very peripheral this time. Their diminished roles are definitely due to laziness more than anything else, but the results please me.

I've had one playthrough where Ashley survived. Her dialogue belies her new botox-Barbie appearance. The latter aspect is definitely marketing's contribution.

Adding it all up, I very much love the fact that Morinth is treated at least as badly as all the other ME2 mistakes.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 mai 2012 - 09:49 .

[babachewie]

Been Better if there was a cutscene or something of her changing. I think it was poor use of the character. Also I don't see why she didn't play a part in the monastery mission. It makes the choice of keeping her alive pretty pointless.

Modifié par babachewie, 04 mai 2012 - 09:56 .

[The Angry One]

No really I can't imagine why there'd be less strippers in a war story.
And what was wrong with Emily Wong?

[Shepardtheshepard]

babachewie wrote...

Been Better if there was a cutscene or something of her changing. I think it was poor use of the character. Also I don't see why she didn't play a part in the monastery mission. It makes the choice of keeping her alive pretty pointless.

Should of never been a choice in the first place. It's not like you get a choice of which person with any of the other squadmates like say Okeer or Grunt or what have you. Especially as the choice pops at the very last second straight AFTER MORINTH WAS TRYING TO KILL YOU. Not exactly what most people would consider a sound decision to have your recent murderer work for you.
It all seemed very strange and rushed that you could have Morinth.


Truth is, none of these Samara/Morinth arguements would exist if it was never a choice in the first place. Sure the odd person might go "wouldn't it be neat if you could have Morinth instead" from time to time, but nothing more. The fact Bioware made it a choice gives people the idea that each has pros/cons but neither is really right or wrong. Like the Rachni (regardless how it turned out) choice in ME1. Nether paragon or renegade are supposed to be right/wrong choices,
So presenting the choice forces all of us to think that letting Morinth live isn't a bad thing just a different one.

[razor150]

Xeranx wrote...

razor150 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

This would be so much easier if people actually knew the distinction between a killer and a murderer.

Hey, for all we know, Nef could have secretly been... um... a corrupt dictator... or something... and Morith was just freeing her nation.

The inclusion of Nef being a victim doesn't make sense.  You've said "if you paid attention to the story" before and I think you should do the same.

What, about anything Morinth said, has you believe that Nef was a viable victim?  People think, Nef was killed so Morinth goes after innocents.  Is that what Morinth said?  Remember that Morinth comes right out and tells you about Nef when you speak to her on the ship with no prompting (as weird as that is considering how Nef really doesn't fit as a victim).

So you take the word of a Sociopath when she talks about one of the people she murders? Sociopaths aren't know for their honestly, but are known for their manipulation.

Did you watch the logs of Nef and how she degenerates because of influence of Morinth's domination of her mind. Saying Nef isn't a victim is downright silly, and probably why nobody has even bother responding to this post. If Morinth had gotten her way Shepard would have been one more victim, and could be if choose to do so after the suicide mission. Would you argue that Shepard wasn't a victim either?

Maybe those, like you, who didn't respond made up your minds about you were reading rather than actually read what was typed.  When did I say Nef wasn't a victim?  Your entire argument fails right there because you're arguing against nothing.  

I made no statement of the kind you assert, but you imply that others ignored it for the same reasons you found something wrong with it...and that is what?

I saw the logs, but I also know that with the company Morinth kept (she was with the Eclipse sisters before she left Illium) and how she says she's drawn to dark, dangerous places (Eclipse sisters and Omega), and the many things she says when you activate objects in her apartment, that Nef isn't a viable target.  

Nef is on the same level as the guy we see at the door to the VIP room.  In order for Nef to attract Morinth's attention she would have to present something Morinth would be interested in to even be approached by her.  Keep in mind that Shepard has to make a show in order to get Morinth's attention.  There's also the Asari dancer we are able to help out.  Dance is a form of artistry, so why is Nef a more viable target than the dancer?

There's also the words of Nef's mother in that Nef is practically a shut in except for maybe a few friends and art galleries (I'm fuzzy on those last bits there concerning the friends and art galleries).  So how did she end up in the VIP section?  People have replied, "Nef wanted to blow off some steam or she was taken by friends" to bypass the question as to how it happened.  It's all speculation, yet people feel contrite in using speculation to make statements of fact.  

If your foundation isn't solid, how exactly do you expect it to hold up that house your building?

EDIT: And yes, in a game that expects me to make decisions based on what's presented to me but doesn't give me anything substantial, I'll take Morinth on over Samara because I am going to make several decisions over the course of the game and I don't appreciate someone telling me that we will have problems because of something I do to get the job done.  I mean, if she can represent a threat to the life of a police officer on a world where she's a visitor (I don't care if it's mostly Asari that inhabit it), I can't take her on.

From your explaination I don't think I misunderstood you as much as you think I did. Bascially you are saying that Nef can't be as innocent as people think she is because Morinth targetted her, even though Samara says she is attracted to artists, to those born with a spark and not just to darkness and violence. Nef's art is also shown to be in game to be fresh and worth more than a year's salary for her mother. Nef can be considered an artist of exceptional talent, as an up and comer, and if Morinth is attracted to artists Nef would fit the bill quite easily. We really have no reason to believe Morinth wanted her for anything more than her artistic talent. The dancer wouldn't fit even though dance itself is an art form, I doubt anybody would consider an average stripper an exceptional artist. 

Samara also explains that Shepard is an artist himself on the battlefield, and to attract Morinth you needn't do anything violent to attract her. 

Our misunderstanding only comes from me taking what you said to mean you viewed her as less of a victim because of that. It still comes acrossed as you blaming her in part for her demise.

Personally I have no problem with people picking Morinth, if you like the character better than Samara have at it and enjoy. I do have a problem with justifying it by trying to say Samara, Thane and others are just as bad as her. I just find that patently absurd because it draws parallels without context. I won't defend the others and really don't want to get into the comparisons, but their evils pale incomparison to Morinth's. Jack is the only one that even comes close, and personally I am not a big fan of her either. Both are tragic figures and only one of them can be saved (not referring to ME3 here).

Modifié par razor150, 04 mai 2012 - 10:30 .

[babachewie]

Shepardtheshepard wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Been Better if there was a cutscene or something of her changing. I think it was poor use of the character. Also I don't see why she didn't play a part in the monastery mission. It makes the choice of keeping her alive pretty pointless.

Should of never been a choice in the first place. It's not like you get a choice of which person with any of the other squadmates like say Okeer or Grunt or what have you. Especially as the choice pops at the very last second straight AFTER MORINTH WAS TRYING TO KILL YOU. Not exactly what most people would consider a sound decision to have your recent murderer work for you.
It all seemed very strange and rushed that you could have Morinth.


Truth is, none of these Samara/Morinth arguements would exist if it was never a choice in the first place. Sure the odd person might go "wouldn't it be neat if you could have Morinth instead" from time to time, but nothing more. The fact Bioware made it a choice gives people the idea that each has pros/cons but neither is really right or wrong. Like the Rachni (regardless how it turned out) choice in ME1. Nether paragon or renegade are supposed to be right/wrong choices,
So presenting the choice forces all of us to think that letting Morinth live isn't a bad thing just a different one.

Some peoples sheaprds might of just liked to live dangerously or wanted a killer sexy vampire demon witch instead of a self rightous samerai warrior who may end up trying to kill you anyway once her code is full filled. Either way I liked both characters. Wish one wasn't shafted more than the other though in the sequel 

[razor150]

The Angry One wrote...

No really I can't imagine why there'd be less strippers in a war story.

Because soldiers love strippers. 

[VirtualSoldier27]

does anyone else think Aria was protecting Morinth ?,notice Nefs mother said all the Omega authorities said it wasnt a homicide, and who does the Omega Authorities answer to ?

and if thats true, Aria gave her up becuase she didnt like meddling Spectres and Justicars nosing around Omega

Modifié par VirtualSoldier27, 04 mai 2012 - 10:34 .

[razor150]

I just think it amounts to Aria not caring. She says so straight out. I'd also wouldn't call anybody in Omega "authorities". Guards maybe, just to make sure people with no money doesn't steal from those who do, but I wouldn't call them anything more than that.

[p__q]

Eromenos wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Morinth was nothing more than cheesy "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation from the all-male ME2 dudebro writers.

Three of the ten writers for ME3 are women. Either way Morinth ends up as a stain, and a stain without comment if it happens in ME3. I definitely call this a payoff. 

You really think that's the reason? Give me a break. It's pure laziness.

Also, Morinth doesn't bother me that much so I don't know why you think the writers being women has anything to do with it.
Then again that may be because I consider Samara as much of a sociopath as Morinth, if not worse. Plus, death by snu-snu is probably the most hilarious derp-Shep way to go shortofpickingacolour.

Who says laziness isn't a factor? This time the laziness suits me instead of the dudebro gamers. Suits me quite well.

There are zero asari chicks in ME3 that get to behave as Morinth or Sha'ira did, and Liara's stalker habits were toned back a crapton. Off the top of my head, I think Diana Allers is the only female npc in ME3 who is allowed to be an obvious sex toy and little else. And even she can be skipped. Emily Wong was practically Kelly Chambers of ME1, and we see where they both end up. The nightclub servers and dancers are there, but they seem very peripheral this time. Their diminished roles are definitely due to laziness more than anything else, but the results please me.

I've had one playthrough where Ashley survived. Her dialogue belies her new botox-Barbie appearance. The latter aspect is definitely marketing's contribution.

Adding it all up, I very much love the fact that Morinth is treated at least as badly as all the other ME2 mistakes.

I'm honestly curios about your stand point here as you obviously have a problem with the sexualised aspecct of Morinth and what that represents which is your right to an opinion but I don't understand why your actively happy that players who picked her were screwed over in ME3. Considering how Morinth is optional and  isn't a character forced on you like Liara its not like your experience would have been negatively impacted at all by having her in the game, all it would have done would be to bring enjoyment to the people who did save her and if your objection to her inclusion is based on a more broad view of (to put it bluntly) not liking skanks in videogames at all then that still confuses me as even though her character isn't expanded on much her sexual aspect is arguabley dwarfed by her renegade killer side which is what I (and im sure many other people) decided to save her for as I assumed the presence of a psychotic killer would make for more interesting and dramatic story and thus make the game more enjoyable 

Modifié par p__q, 04 mai 2012 - 10:41 .

[Eromenos]

The Angry One wrote...

No really I can't imagine why there'd be less strippers in a war story.
And what was wrong with Emily Wong?

Hmmm, ME1 and ME2 were war stories too(ME1 was, at least) yet they both stooped.

ME3 finally got it right, by not allowing a single prominent coquettish/vixen asari. Thankfully instead we got to have Emily Wong dead because she was an insult from the first. Morinth a sidenote, and Kelly gets to be seen for what she always was. Supposedly they were women characters but were only ever manifested as heehee! girls. As for the Purgatory employees in question, they could've easily become as unnecessarily obtrusive as their counterparts in Chora's Den and Afterlife were, but they were sidelined instead like all the other ME3 examples. By "unneccessarily obtrusive," I refer to their reason for existing in ME as a whole, not the context of the establishments.

I happen to call this "laziness"(ME3's variety suits me very well, just as a reminder) because sex-toy female npcs are counted as obligatory by dudebro gamers for things like Morinth, Emily Wong, Kelly Chambers, and all the more "obvious strippers." Morinth's rightful treatment in ME3 has been called lazy. *shrug* So it is. Good riddance. I'm pointing out that this should be tied to the other absent/lazy depictions of previously-guaranteed T&A that had no other purpose. Shorter story: "Why was my blow-up doll mistreated!"

So much fuss. Miranda and Samara are still in their old "armor" along with Ashley's new "armor" but maybe their personalities are just too strong for the appearances that marketing pasted on them.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 mai 2012 - 11:03 .

[razor150]

I just don't get how Emily Wong who is an investigative reporter that is never shown in a sexual way, unlike Diana Allers, is included in your dudebro theme.

Modifié par razor150, 04 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[tonnactus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Basically there is no defense for Morinth. Whatever injustice she had thrust upon her with her genetic defect, whatever limited choices she had, are all invalidated because after she obtained her freedom she killed innocent people like there was no tommorow.

It was necessary to survive while others like her mother hunted her. At the end,she was as strong as her mother depite being younger.
And it seems that her sisters were even to weak to be able to defeat a cannibal...(great,right,they dont even teach ardat yakshi to use their biotic abilities for basic self defense)

[VirtualSoldier27]

Nef is the only one we know about, but how long did Samara say she has been tracking her ?, just imagine how many other innocent people she killed in that time span ?

Frankly, defending Morinth is like defending Jack The Ripper IMO

I always look at Morinth has the Renegade/Evil choice, and Samara has the Paragon/Good choice

Morinth was more evil and dangerous than the rogue Spectre Vasir, and Shepard killed her to

Modifié par VirtualSoldier27, 04 mai 2012 - 11:25 .

[KingNothing125]

Samara has been chasing Morinth for 400+ years.

[The Angry One]

No really what are you remembering about Emily Wong that I'm not that brings you to the conclusion that she was a "sex toy"?