262 réponses à ce sujet

[VirtualSoldier27]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Samara has been chasing Morinth for 400+ years.

and she could have easily killed hundreds if not more,innocent people in that time span,like I said, Nef is just the only one we are really told about

[Geneaux486]

tonnactus wrote...
It was necessary to survive while others like her mother hunted her.

It wasn't necesarry for anything.  Her mother was hunting her because of the trail of bodies she was leaving.

Nef is just the only one we are really told about

She had a village believing she was a goddess and had them bring her asari maidens as a sacrifice on a regular basis.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 mai 2012 - 11:31 .

[tonnactus]

LoganofET wrote...

I do conceed that Samara was easily the most boring squadmate in ME2 and the warrior code bit was old before it started, at least she's following an agreed opon set of rules that people can predict. Morith just goes and kills for pleasure and makes it up as she goes along.

I doubt anyone else then a justicar know all 5000 "laws".

[KingNothing125]

Only a select few deluded fools don't think Morinth is dangerous and evil, but that's no excuse for not writing content for her.

I saved her a couple times just to see how ME3 would be different with her as opposed to Samara. I think her one email (two if you include the stuff on Liara's Shadow Broker terminal), and "cameo" as a renamed Banshee is a pretty weaksauce way to treat an interesting character. She should have at least taken Samara's place at the monastery.

[Eromenos]

p__q wrote...

I'm honestly curios about your stand point here as you obviously have a problem with the sexualised aspecct of Morinth and what that represents which is your right to an opinion but I don't understand why your actively happy that players who picked her were screwed over in ME3. Considering how Morinth is optional and  isn't a character forced on you like Liara its not like your experience would have been negatively impacted at all by having her in the game, all it would have done would be to bring enjoyment to the people who did save her and if your objection to her inclusion is based on a more broad view of (to put it bluntly) not liking skanks in videogames at all then that still confuses me as even though her character isn't expanded on much her sexual aspect is arguabley dwarfed by her renegade killer side which is what I (and im sure many other people) decided to save her for as I assumed the presence of a psychotic killer would make for more interesting and dramatic story and thus make the game more enjoyable 

I do have a problem with Morinth's sexualized aspect, but I don't have ablanket problem with sexuality on the screen. My problem is that onscreen sexuality is almost always narrowed and dumbed-down to stuff that caters to dudebros, and that comes with a price that they don't end up having to pay. I referred to Morinth as a "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation that hurts women, particularly women who are lesbian or bisexual. She and Kelly Chambers were both insulting examples made just for guys. There's nothing empowering about either one of them. They're just recycled sci-fi manifestations of the "ideal woman" crap.

Morinth is optional only in the barest sense. We are forced to deal with her, i.e. to dignify her content in Samara's loyalty quest if we want Samara empowered and/or wearing slightly-less-ridiculous-"armor." The attitudes and messages in Morinth's content are insulting to women and queers and should never have been allowed.

As for me being happy that people who cared about Morinth can no longer get what they want. Why wouldn't I be? I don't dignify or respect her concept. If you were in the dark about these issues until now, then blame BioWare for manufacturing and selling Morinth to you in the first place. It's good now that they wasted no more time on her. You probably won't agree with me, but my stance is that every one of us was screwed over by ME2's concepts from the start. Many people bought into them anyway, but I didn't. Either way ME2 was a waste of time in the ME storyline, and Morinth also happened to be one of the chief symptoms that can summarize the dim attitude of ME2.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 mai 2012 - 11:36 .

[tonnactus]

Geneaux486 wrote...


It wasn't necesarry for anything. 

It was. For survival. Where someone hide from police and justicars? At unpleasant,dangerous places. Strong biotics come in handy there. And those became stronger through her mind melds.
Without doing that she would be nothing else then a weak victim for her mother.

[The Angry One]

Morinth is a psychopath and a predator, who is bisexual because all Asari are bisexual by nature.
How is that "hurtful" to anyone?

And you still haven't said what's wrong with Emily Wong.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 mai 2012 - 11:38 .

[stevefox1200]

Morinth had a village that worshiped her after she brainwashed them and sent them to be canon fodder while she escaped to go on yet another killing spree

She kills people because she gets a drug like rush when she does and enjoys the hunt (basically everything you can look at in her apartment leads to her telling you that she loves killing people)

I don't see how she could be "misunderstood"

[KingNothing125]

If Morinth is exploitative, I'm guessing you think True Blood on HBO is exploitative. Morinth is just a run-of-the-mill vampire, Mass Effect-style. Not sure what's so harmful about that.

[Eromenos]

Responding to Razor150 and The Angry One-

I lump Emily Wong in with Morinth, Kelly Chambers, and Sha'ira because Wong has no function except to push the same buttons for dudebros like those other 3 do. She wears about as much as Sha'ira does, and exhibits zero people skills that fall outside of "I'm super femme!" She's on the ASB team, not a galactic reporter. Witness all the slavering reactions to her.  They are identical to Tali's, except that Tali is a fully-realized character instead of a half-baked side character whose lines are coquettish first, relevant...second? Last?

Angry One, you remind of Hudson when he was grasping "asari are mono-gendered, therefore not female, therefore no same-sex romances exist in ME." The problem for him and you is that at least one person who plays ME doesn't actually live in a nerd-vacuum. ME1 and ME2's refusal to depict 3-dimensional queer humans for queer gamers while persisting in uber-femme asari F/F for dudebros is where the harm was. ME2 used dudebros' "ideal woman" fantasies on blue space-elf-chicks and Kelly Chambers the Human Screensaver to exploit F/F titillation not even for actual queer females, but for dudebros first. This is why I'm happy those blow-up dolls are either absent or nothing more than dead stains in ME3.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 mai 2012 - 11:56 .

[VirtualSoldier27]

tonnactus wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...


It wasn't necesarry for anything. 

It was. For survival. Where someone hide from police and justicars? At unpleasant,dangerous places. Strong biotics come in handy there. And those became stronger through her mind melds.
Without doing that she would be nothing else then a weak victim for her mother.

calling morinth a misunderstood victim is has ludicris has calling Bin Laden a misunderstood Victim

[KingNothing125]

I think you're getting Emily Wong confused with Diana Allers.

[Shepardtheshepard]

tonnactus wrote...

LoganofET wrote...

I do conceed that Samara was easily the most boring squadmate in ME2 and the warrior code bit was old before it started, at least she's following an agreed opon set of rules that people can predict. Morith just goes and kills for pleasure and makes it up as she goes along.

I doubt anyone else then a justicar know all 5000 "laws".

Do you really think it's not written down somewhere? With it being the future and having the extranet? Heck people could easily have VIs warning them.
And it's already been established that justicars will uphold the basic laws of the land. The game makes it quite clear that you have to do something obviously wrong to worry about a justicar. It's the punishments that are harsh not what causes justicars to give them out.

Also, do you know ALL the laws where you live? No. Does it make it wrong when the cops come by when you break one of these? No.

EDIT: Futhermore, most of those 5000 laws are for the justicars themselves. Same way a cop has rules saying he has to be wearing pants when working. It's to stop the justicars from doing something obviously wrong. They're not spectres, there are far more limits on what they can do than what Shepard can (and does).

Modifié par Shepardtheshepard, 05 mai 2012 - 12:15 .

[Eromenos]

KingNothing125 wrote...

If Morinth is exploitative, I'm guessing you think True Blood on HBO is exploitative. Morinth is just a run-of-the-mill vampire, Mass Effect-style. Not sure what's so harmful about that.

I think you're getting Emily Wong confused with Diana Allers. 

True Blood had obviously gay human characters and gay sex in conjunction with its hetero content from the start, and it continues to do so. Maybe you need to try that again? The ME series wanted to whitewash the existence and participation of 3-dimensional humans who are queer. Kelly Chambers doesn't count(and magnificiently that's even in Hudson's foot-in-mouth quotes when he said she can't count as a romance) because she's just like Morinth. Kelly is bubbly, Morinth is gothy. Blow-up dolls both. ME3 went a long way toward addressing the BS of its predecessors.

I do make no distinctions between Wong and Allers. I treat them both with disdain because I don't just settle on the "obvious" BS like Allers. That's too easy. The ones that people are willing to give a pass for in order to let themselves have it both ways, they're the ones I love to call out.

Modifié par Eromenos, 05 mai 2012 - 12:16 .

[tonnactus]

Shepardtheshepard wrote...



Do you really think it's not written down somewhere?

Why should that matter. 5000 sutras is a little to big to remember them all or read them fast if needed...

And there is also the interpretation of such rules. I doubt shepardt can do that right,when not even people of the same religion(the code is just a ruleset that religions also have) had different opinions about that and even started wars...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...
And it's already been established that justicars will uphold the basic laws of the land.

They not even respect asari or council laws. Otherwise there would be no need to arrest samara and she hadnt a fight with nilus.

Modifié par tonnactus, 05 mai 2012 - 12:24 .

[KingNothing125]

I am totally missing the point with your Emily Wong "disdain."

She's a reporter in ME1 who asks for incriminating data from Fist, and then wants you to plant a bug in the flight traffic control office. What in the world has she done to get lumped in with Diana Allers and Kelly Chambers?

[p__q]

Eromenos wrote...

I do have a problem with Morinth's sexualized aspect, but I don't have ablanket problem with sexuality on the screen. My problem is that onscreen sexuality is almost always narrowed and dumbed-down to stuff that caters to dudebros, and that comes with a price that they don't end up having to pay. I referred to Morinth as a "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation that hurts women, particularly women who are lesbian or bisexual. She and Kelly Chambers were both insulting examples made just for guys. There's nothing empowering about either one of them. They're just recycled sci-fi manifestations of the "ideal woman" crap.

Morinth is optional only in the barest sense. We are forced to deal with her, i.e. to dignify her content in Samara's loyalty quest if we want Samara empowered and/or wearing slightly-less-ridiculous-"armor." The attitudes and messages in Morinth's content are insulting to women and queers and should never have been allowed.

As for me being happy that people who cared about Morinth can no longer get what they want. Why wouldn't I be? I don't dignify or respect her concept. If you were in the dark about these issues until now, then blame BioWare for manufacturing and selling Morinth to you in the first place. It's good now that they wasted no more time on her. You probably won't agree with me, but my stance is that every one of us was screwed over by ME2's concepts from the start. Many people bought into them anyway, but I didn't. Either way ME2 was a waste of time in the ME storyline, and Morinth also happened to be one of the chief symptoms that can summarize the dim attitude of ME2.

fair enough, while I still wish that she had a better role in ME3 thats due to the fact that I have a very diferent opinion on ME2 as a whole and also viewed her as interesting in terms of the potential story consequences of saving her but I'l admit I never really gave much thought to the sexual aspect however as I'm not the target "dudebros" audience for characters like Morinth and Kelly and I never really picked up on those two characters type of sexuality being overtly harmefull to women, but thank you for replying as while personally I still look at Morinth from a plot perspective and still wish her role could be expanded on I now at least know the reasoning (other than the killer aspect which I think is hardly uncommon in videogames) why others may view her fundamental concept with disdain, as opposed to people saying she's evil so who cares

[razor150]

KingNothing125 wrote...

I am totally missing the point with your Emily Wong "disdain."

She's a reporter in ME1 who asks for incriminating data from Fist, and then wants you to plant a bug in the flight traffic control office. What in the world has she done to get lumped in with Diana Allers and Kelly Chambers?

Exactly. I agree that Bioware is pretty crappy about portraying women, ME2 being the worse although even Ashely is wearing high heels to battle now in ME3 just like Miranda and Samara did in ME2. Emily Wong isn't portrayed in any fashion that can be considered stereotypically sexualized. She doesn't do anything except ask Shepard for help with her stories. Maybe they don't like that she is a woman asking for help. *shrug*

Modifié par razor150, 05 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[Shepardtheshepard]

tonnactus wrote...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...



Do you really think it's not written down somewhere?

Why should that matter. 5000 sutras is a little to big to remember them all or read them fast if needed...

And there is also the interpretation of such rules. I doubt shepardt can do that right,when not even people of the same religion(the code is just a ruleset that religions also have) had different opinions about that and even started wars...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...
And it's already been established that justicars will uphold the basic laws of the land.

They not even respect asari or council laws. Otherwise there would be no need to arrest samara and she hadnt a fight with nilus.

Again: Do you know ALL the laws where you live? No. Does it make it wrong when the cops come by when you break one of these? No.

And again, they could have VIs to warn them if necessary. Heck it could be an downloadable app from the extranet!

And they do respect the laws Again it's been established in this thread that they protect basic laws of the land. Especially asari. Which is why Asari tend to view them as legendary heroes and why they tend to stay in asari space. The arrest thing wasn't because Samara was doing something wrong, but that other species she could encounter might not understand, causing an interspecies incident. Like if a Russian cop came over to America to hunt a criminal down (basically the plot of Red Heat).
As for Nilus, ALL WE KNOW is that he shot an innocent. Maybe there was some weird reason, maybe there wasn't. But as we don't know why, we can't say Samara wasn't respecting the law by chasing him and remember he gets away because Samara's code has her protecting innocents before hunting criminals.

Your arguement is that some people might have a different stance on or don't know about things to what Samara does. In the same way everyone on this planet has different stances or cannot know what everyone else considers right/wrong. Just because I don't know running naked in the streets is a bad thing to do in some places in the middle east, doesn't mean they're scum if the lock me up now does it.

Modifié par Shepardtheshepard, 05 mai 2012 - 12:52 .

[nategator]

After reading through this thread I think players' feelings about Morinth depend on whether they themselves are "Paragon" or "Renegade"

If you're Paragon, you despise Morinth and don't worry about Samara's demands that you behave ethically or else she'll take you down after the mission.

If you're Renegade, you accept Morinth is a sociopath, feel that she may be more useful as she's a killing machine without any ethics, sure that you can keep that b**** in line, and ready to get rid of Samara because you are worried she'll take you down after the mission (as she threatened to do).

To me, Morinth was a nice way for the writers to explore the Paragon/Renegade storylines. Like others, I was disappointed that Morinth only showed up as PDA messages and easter eggs. I imagine the devs were going to do more but cut her character because of budget or time constraints.

Oh, and for the record, I chose Samara my first play-through, not that it matters. It's called a ROLE playing game...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Morinth? I got the option one playthrough. I killed Samara to unlock "Dominate", then reloaded the game and killed Morinth. No way would I want that filthy creature on my ship, even as a renegade.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 05 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[Geneaux486]

tonnactus wrote...
It was. For survival. Where someone hide from police and justicars? At unpleasant,dangerous places. Strong biotics come in handy there. And those became stronger through her mind melds.
Without doing that she would be nothing else then a weak victim for her mother.

Dude she has a nice apartment on Omega and spends her nights clubbing.  Serial killing is her hobby, not her job.  Dur.

Morinth is a psychopath and a predator, who is bisexual because all Asari are bisexual by nature.
How is that "hurtful" to anyone?

Nef was hoping for a commitment.  Instead, she got a broken heart.  And she died also.

And you still haven't said what's wrong with Emily Wong.

She's not a very good pilot.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 05 mai 2012 - 01:32 .

[nategator]

Eromenos wrote...

p__q wrote...

I'm honestly curios about your stand point here as you obviously have a problem with the sexualised aspecct of Morinth and what that represents which is your right to an opinion but I don't understand why your actively happy that players who picked her were screwed over in ME3. Considering how Morinth is optional and  isn't a character forced on you like Liara its not like your experience would have been negatively impacted at all by having her in the game, all it would have done would be to bring enjoyment to the people who did save her and if your objection to her inclusion is based on a more broad view of (to put it bluntly) not liking skanks in videogames at all then that still confuses me as even though her character isn't expanded on much her sexual aspect is arguabley dwarfed by her renegade killer side which is what I (and im sure many other people) decided to save her for as I assumed the presence of a psychotic killer would make for more interesting and dramatic story and thus make the game more enjoyable 

I do have a problem with Morinth's sexualized aspect, but I don't have ablanket problem with sexuality on the screen. My problem is that onscreen sexuality is almost always narrowed and dumbed-down to stuff that caters to dudebros, and that comes with a price that they don't end up having to pay. I referred to Morinth as a "Basic Instinct"-style exploitation that hurts women, particularly women who are lesbian or bisexual. She and Kelly Chambers were both insulting examples made just for guys. There's nothing empowering about either one of them. They're just recycled sci-fi manifestations of the "ideal woman" crap.

Morinth is optional only in the barest sense. We are forced to deal with her, i.e. to dignify her content in Samara's loyalty quest if we want Samara empowered and/or wearing slightly-less-ridiculous-"armor." The attitudes and messages in Morinth's content are insulting to women and queers and should never have been allowed.

As for me being happy that people who cared about Morinth can no longer get what they want. Why wouldn't I be? I don't dignify or respect her concept. If you were in the dark about these issues until now, then blame BioWare for manufacturing and selling Morinth to you in the first place. It's good now that they wasted no more time on her. You probably won't agree with me, but my stance is that every one of us was screwed over by ME2's concepts from the start. Many people bought into them anyway, but I didn't. Either way ME2 was a waste of time in the ME storyline, and Morinth also happened to be one of the chief symptoms that can summarize the dim attitude of ME2.

Yawn, there is nothing wrong with a storyteller catering his story to the expected audience. Especially when that audience is paying $60 retail for escapist entertainment.

If anything, the fact that Bioware has been pushing the envelope in gaming by creating storylines for the minority of people that don't have a heterosexual orientation should be enough for you to "tolerate" storylines tailored for the staight young men and teenagers that make up the bulk of the gaming audience.  It may not be politically correct, but a lot of men are titillated by bisexual, loose, and big breasted women.  Get over it.

Also, LMAO at the idea that Morinth or Kelly Chambers would qualify as part of the "ideal women" type.  Usually that critique is reserved for the madonna/**** combination -- which would fit probably Liara best (sexually inexperienced but bisexual).

[Geneaux486]

nategator wrote...
Also, LMAO at the idea that Morinth or Kelly Chambers would qualify as part of the "ideal women" type. 

Morinth's jaw frames the rest of her head.  Badly.  Kelly's personality is her strongest trait.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 05 mai 2012 - 01:38 .

[Shepardtheshepard]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Morinth? I got the option one playthrough. I killed Samara to unlock "Dominate", then reloaded the game and killed Morinth. No way would I want that filthy creature on my ship, even as a renegade.

 I think the biggest problem is that it's a choice neither a paragon or renegade from ME1 would of made.
When the first game came out, Bioware went out of their way tp point out it wasn't a right/wrong morality type thing. Just different approaches to the same end. If Paragon & renegade were separate people, they would be the odd couple or every buddy cop movie ever made. Different yet the same.
 For example, both wanted humans to be given a fairer chance. Paragon would ask gently, but renegade would shout his/her mouth off. But neither would shoot down every alien they saw, or refuse help from them. Both wanted to stop Dr. Saleon and make him pay for his crimes. Paragon was willing to take him to jail where he'd spend his life, whereas renegade didn't want to waste that time and just shot him. But neither would let him go because he sounded cool or his experiments did something or rather.
It was much harder to make choices in 1 because they weren't all that different and had a balance of pro & cons.

Neither would let a murderer get away (or support a terrorist group), which is why (among other things) ME2 was so odd.