262 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

They should have had Morinth come back to the Monastery save her sisters. That could have been interesting.

Though I guess too few people had her alive for it to be worth it.

This. There was no reason Morinth couldn't have had different-dialogue step-ins for Samara. Even if it's the more 'evil' route, or 'worse' in that she clearly intends to cultivate her sisters like herself, it would have been a lot better than two emails.

Morinth is the unfortunate evidence that Bioware's Mass Effect team had no clue of how to write 'evil' characters.

[Cuddlezarro]

not defending morinth or anything but they should have had her show up at the monastery to save her sisters and get bansheefied there then we get to fight her on earth >_>

also would have loved to have dominate as a bonus power again somehow (aka the only reason i saved her even once)

[Icinix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They should have had Morinth come back to the Monastery save her sisters. That could have been interesting.

Though I guess too few people had her alive for it to be worth it.

This. There was no reason Morinth couldn't have had different-dialogue step-ins for Samara. Even if it's the more 'evil' route, or 'worse' in that she clearly intends to cultivate her sisters like herself, it would have been a lot better than two emails.

Morinth is the unfortunate evidence that Bioware's Mass Effect team had no clue of how to write 'evil' characters.

I think its more evidence they let analytic numbers prevent real choices and consequences.

[Dean_the_Young]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

I dont see how anybody can choose Morinth, with the tears of Nefs mother fresh in there memory,I always choose Samara, she kills,but only if its completely justified, she doesnt kill innocent people, she lives by a code, and even attempts to kill her self in ME3 to live by that code if you dont stop her

Uh, what?

Our first encounter with Samara is showing that she's a deontoligical zealot who will kill innocent people with weak justification. The entire recruitment mission revolves around preventing such a massacre.

[Seboist]

Icinix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They should have had Morinth come back to the Monastery save her sisters. That could have been interesting.

Though I guess too few people had her alive for it to be worth it.

This. There was no reason Morinth couldn't have had different-dialogue step-ins for Samara. Even if it's the more 'evil' route, or 'worse' in that she clearly intends to cultivate her sisters like herself, it would have been a lot better than two emails.

Morinth is the unfortunate evidence that Bioware's Mass Effect team had no clue of how to write 'evil' characters.

I think its more evidence they let analytic numbers prevent real choices and consequences.

Yup, the whole handling of Morinth is another example of "lol indoctrination" being used to railroad the plot and cut corners.

[Shepardtheshepard]

Icinix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They should have had Morinth come back to the Monastery save her sisters. That could have been interesting.

Though I guess too few people had her alive for it to be worth it.

This. There was no reason Morinth couldn't have had different-dialogue step-ins for Samara. Even if it's the more 'evil' route, or 'worse' in that she clearly intends to cultivate her sisters like herself, it would have been a lot better than two emails.

Morinth is the unfortunate evidence that Bioware's Mass Effect team had no clue of how to write 'evil' characters.

I think its more evidence they let analytic numbers prevent real choices and consequences.

I don't there's a single person either for or against Morinth who doesn't think her use in ME3 was a waste. You could even still had her on earth after being seeing her get caught in the monastery! That would of been something great to have dwelling on Shepards mind.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, without indoctrination.

It was pretty clear in ME2 that Morinth was a character they were trying to remove as much as possible from the game. The only unique off-ship dialogue she has was apparently left by oversight.

[Shepardtheshepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

I dont see how anybody can choose Morinth, with the tears of Nefs mother fresh in there memory,I always choose Samara, she kills,but only if its completely justified, she doesnt kill innocent people, she lives by a code, and even attempts to kill her self in ME3 to live by that code if you dont stop her

Uh, what?

Our first encounter with Samara is showing that she's a deontoligical zealot who will kill innocent people with weak justification. The entire recruitment mission revolves around preventing such a massacre.

Did we play a different game?

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, without indoctrination.

It was pretty clear in ME2 that Morinth was a character they were trying to remove as much as possible from the game. The only unique off-ship dialogue she has was apparently left by oversight.

Makes you wonder why they ever bothered making her a squadmate. Might as well have been able to recruit Sidonis over Garrus while they were at it and have him impersonate him.

[lordnyx1]

Shepardtheshepard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

I dont see how anybody can choose Morinth, with the tears of Nefs mother fresh in there memory,I always choose Samara, she kills,but only if its completely justified, she doesnt kill innocent people, she lives by a code, and even attempts to kill her self in ME3 to live by that code if you dont stop her

Uh, what?

Our first encounter with Samara is showing that she's a deontoligical zealot who will kill innocent people with weak justification. The entire recruitment mission revolves around preventing such a massacre.

Did we play a different game?

I'm guessing he's talking about the law enforcement since the eclipse sister have to kill to get their uniforms and they rather clearly had them.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't know. Did you play a game in which Samara didn't threaten to fight her way out of a police station in an implicit massacre after 24 hours of detainment for some silly concern that she might do something bad, like kill people?

Because that was rather the context of the mission in my game. That if you didn't find the evidence, then Samara was going to be killing a lot of police just doing their job for getting in her way.

[VirtualSoldier27]

lordnyx1 wrote...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

I dont see how anybody can choose Morinth, with the tears of Nefs mother fresh in there memory,I always choose Samara, she kills,but only if its completely justified, she doesnt kill innocent people, she lives by a code, and even attempts to kill her self in ME3 to live by that code if you dont stop her

Uh, what?

Our first encounter with Samara is showing that she's a deontoligical zealot who will kill innocent people with weak justification. The entire recruitment mission revolves around preventing such a massacre.

Did we play a different game?

I'm guessing he's talking about the law enforcement since the eclipse sister have to kill to get their uniforms and they rather clearly had them.

the eclipse are not innocent, she was looking for morinth, and she gave the eclipse sister a chance and she refused to tell her, so she killed her

and name one instance where Samara has killed an innocent person ?, you cant, becuase she doesnt, she even threatens shepard that if he does anything to harm innocents, she would kill him to

[Shepardtheshepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't know. Did you play a game in which Samara didn't threaten to fight her way out of a police station in an implicit massacre after 24 hours of detainment for some silly concern that she might do something bad, like kill people?

Because that was rather the context of the mission in my game. That if you didn't find the evidence, then Samara was going to be killing a lot of police just doing their job for getting in her way.

So you mean the people he was going along with peacefully, warned them of said thing with pleanty of notice, where she was being arrested for having commited no crime whatsoever, an arrest that possibly would of stopped her from catching a mass murder, a thing she points out she would only do if they tried to stop her?
Remember the detective doesn't even want to stop Samara and Shepard then rants about how the detective shouldn't even follow such a silly order.

Not exactly a weak justification (though I certainly don't agree). But think of it this way. A cop or two asks to look around your house to look for someone/evidence. You can say no and they have to obey. But if it gets to the point that they have to look in your house (i.e. have a warrant), if you try to stop them then they have every right to push you out the way because you're now seriously preventing them from catching a criminal.
It's the same here. It's just the cops are now the house owner and the house Samara needs to look at is outside the station.
EDIT TO HOPEFULLY BE EXTRA CLEAR: The point is that after a certain point the cops are in effect (unintentionally obviously), doing what the mercs were and stopping Samara from catching a mass muderer. Making them sort of criminals. Again I DON'T AGREE with this, but I see the logic and it's not some crazy evil rule.
I mentioned before in the thread that I don't like that a lot of Americans can have guns, but them owning them doesn't make them bad people.

Modifié par Shepardtheshepard, 05 mai 2012 - 02:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, without indoctrination.

It was pretty clear in ME2 that Morinth was a character they were trying to remove as much as possible from the game. The only unique off-ship dialogue she has was apparently left by oversight.

Makes you wonder why they ever bothered making her a squadmate. Might as well have been able to recruit Sidonis over Garrus while they were at it and have him impersonate him.

Crazy thing is, given all the initially unsympathetic women who become better, happier, and more moral people after an encounter with male-Shepard's healing rooster, Morinth actually had a better foundation for a 'healing' sympathy-pic. Morinth had a lot of the fundamental basis of Jack in terms of connection issues.

Especially if played upon Shepard's cybernetics (hey, who wants neural shock dampeners?), having Shepard be able to survive mating with Morinth would have been an excellent way to start building an overcoming of the sociopathy. Sociopathy comes from an inability to form sincere connections with others, and with Asari that goes hand in hand with the ability to join. Without any sort of enduring relationship possible, Morinth was kind of screwed.

An enduring relationship with mating, however, could rewrite Morinth's world view. Shepard becomes the first, and possibly only, person Morinth could have any sort of enduring raport for. Even if for novelty's sake alone, that could have had a huge impact on her: an investment and a reason to stick around, and to stick with Shepard, and to do things that will please Shepard so that Shepard will stay and in turn please Morinth. Add in that her worst attribute would be mitigated, and Morinth becomes a bit more redeemable.

Amorality isn't synonymous with pure greed for a reason. We can do nice things for others so that they would do nice things for us and so make us happy.


Morinth never needed to be the emotional-appeal abomination that she was: she could have simply been someone who was amoral, and who had a condition that killed people she wanted to get close to. If Shepard wouldn't die from that, a whole lot of the worst could be mitigated. Even if Shepard wasn't romancing Morinth, you could develop a relationship in such that Morinth plays nice in order to stay around Shepard and on Shepard's good side.


If it were up to me? Develop an amoral who isn't so much obsessed as fascinated and fixated with Shepard regardless, and not in a 'kill Shepard myself via snu snu' either.

If you didn't romance her, she still wants to hang around and so passes on murder in order to keep Shepard happy. Out of amusement or intrigue or whatever else, Shepard just becomes the object of interest and Morinth refrains from rocking the boat in order to enjoy the novel experience for awhile.

If you did romance her, she could become even more fixated: the first genuine, sustained attachment to another, and the encompanying fixation to protect it. Not so much creepy stalker as possessive-protective, but certainly not needing to kill anyone else. A Yuno yandere, if you will.



Morinth can be flawed and horrible in a lot more ways and still be far more interesting.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shepardtheshepard wrote...

So you mean the people she was going along with peacefully, warned them of said thing with pleanty of notice, where she was being arrested for having commited no crime whatsoever, an arrest that possibly would of stopped her from catching a mass murder, a thing she points out she would only do if they tried to stop her?

It might surprise you, but warning someone in advance that you're going to murder them for doing their legal job isn't a valid justification for doing so. And no, Samara was not arrested, nor was she detained for no reason.

Samara was not in hot pursuit. Samara is not even a cop. Samara is a culturally-specific vigilante, which does not excuse the murder of police doing valid actions even if it does get in the vigilante's ways. The fact that the legitimate authority is obstructing the Justicar in no way shape or form makes the police criminals by default.

Remember the detective doesn't even want to stop Samara and Shepard then rants about how the detective shouldn't even follow such a silly order.

The order being stupid because she stands no chance to a Justicar massacre. Which doesn't change the nature of who is in the wrong (the Justicar), or make the police the unjust (they are never accused of corruption or illegality by any party, including Samara).

Not exactly a weak justification (though I certainly don't agree). But think of it this way. A cop or two asks to look around your house to look for someone/evidence. You can say no and they have to obey. But if it gets to the point that they have to look in your house (i.e. have a warrant), if you try to stop them then they have every right to push you out the way because you're now seriously preventing them from catching a criminal.
It's the same here. It's just the cops are now the house owner and the house Samara needs to look at is outside the station.

In this case, however, the cops do have a warrant. And you're threatening to shoot them if they don't leave in five minutes.

You would be completely in the wrong.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 mai 2012 - 02:41 .

[VirtualSoldier27]

is Shepard a crazy vigilante zealout ?, he is on trial for a number of offences,that went against Alliance and Council commands, but he was doing what he felt was the right thing to do

is Garrus a crazy vigalante zealout ?, doesnt like the C-Sec red tape, so he travels to omega and starts killing everyone he deems a criminal, and anyone who gets in his way, infact he almost kills Shepard before he realized who he was, again, he may be going against the book,but he is also doing what he feels is the right thing

Mordin, he is a former Salarian STG operative, who broke away to carry out his own morals and ambitions, he kills people that he deems dangerous or possibly dangerous "Different Ways To Help,Curing Sick People,and Killing Dangerous People before They Can Hurt Others"

like I have said many times, Samara fits right in with the group, she swore an oath to Shepard,a Human, something Justicars simply never do, even to other Asari's, and she is loyal, however her daughter Morinth is a manipultive sociopathic killer

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

I kind of wish they'd done something like that for Miranda and Jacob.  Like...have your old SR2 cerberus crew be captured by cerberus and much of them being turned into shocktroops (ken, gabby, ect) and then you find out miranda and jacob are captured and you have a split where you choose who you want to save first but before you can get back the other one gets fully turned reaper and you have to fight them, the one you saved joins your squad.  (Kind of like a reversal of the choice between ashley and kaiden in the first game)

[lordnyx1]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

I kind of wish they'd done something like that for Miranda and Jacob.  Like...have your old SR2 cerberus crew be captured by cerberus and much of them being turned into shocktroops (ken, gabby, ect) and then you find out miranda and jacob are captured and you have a split where you choose who you want to save first but before you can get back the other one gets fully turned reaper and you have to fight them, the one you saved joins your squad.  (Kind of like a reversal of the choice between ashley and kaiden in the first game)

Uh, who would save Jacob though?

[Dean_the_Young]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

is Shepard a crazy vigilante zealout ?,

Can be.

he is on trial for a number of offences,that went against Alliance and Council commands, but he was doing what he felt was the right thing to do

In Arrival, Shepard actually has the twin justifications of (a) being tasked by a recognized authority, and ( the consequences of not acting were the deaths of everyone everywhere.

is Garrus a crazy vigalante zealout ?, doesnt like the C-Sec red tape, so he travels to omega and starts killing everyone he deems a criminal, and anyone who gets in his way, infact he almost kills Shepard before he realized who he was, again, he may be going against the book,but he is also doing what he feels is the right thing

Garrus does certainly have a few screws loose, and he certainly was a vigilante. He wasn't a zealot though.

Mordin, he is a former Salarian STG operative, who broke away to carry out his own morals and ambitions, he kills people that he deems dangerous or possibly dangerous "Different Ways To Help,Curing Sick People,and Killing Dangerous People before They Can Hurt Others"

Mordin is certainly a top-tier war criminal. He's not a zealot, however.

like I have said many times, Samara fits right in with the group, she swore an oath to Shepard,a Human, something Justicars simply never do, even to other Asari's, and she is loyal, however her daughter Morinth is a manipultive sociopathic killer

Samara's the only zealot, actually. And since the Oaths of Subsumission exist, it is apparent that Justicars do on occassion swear oaths to other people.

Now, Morinth is still a manipulative sociopathic killer, but that in no way implies that Samara doesn't kill a lot more people for more effect.

[Dean_the_Young]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

I kind of wish they'd done something like that for Miranda and Jacob.  Like...have your old SR2 cerberus crew be captured by cerberus and much of them being turned into shocktroops (ken, gabby, ect) and then you find out miranda and jacob are captured and you have a split where you choose who you want to save first but before you can get back the other one gets fully turned reaper and you have to fight them, the one you saved joins your squad.  (Kind of like a reversal of the choice between ashley and kaiden in the first game)

That would have been a good type of delimma.

I say type because the Cerberus aspect is flawed, but if it were the Reapers it would be much better.

[Shepardtheshepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepardtheshepard wrote...

So you mean the people she was going along with peacefully, warned them of said thing with pleanty of notice, where she was being arrested for having commited no crime whatsoever, an arrest that possibly would of stopped her from catching a mass murder, a thing she points out she would only do if they tried to stop her?

It might surprise you, but warning someone in advance that you're going to murder them for doing their legal job isn't a valid justification for doing so. And no, Samara was not arrested, nor was she detained for no reason.

Samara was not in hot pursuit. Samara is not even a cop. Samara is a culturally-specific vigilante, which does not excuse the murder of police doing valid actions even if it does get in the vigilante's ways. The fact that the legitimate authority is obstructing the Justicar in no way shape or form makes the police criminals by default.

Remember the detective doesn't even want to stop Samara and Shepard then rants about how the detective shouldn't even follow such a silly order.

The order being stupid because she stands no chance to a Justicar massacre. Which doesn't change the nature of who is in the wrong (the Justicar), or make the police the unjust (they are never accused of corruption or illegality by any party, including Samara).

Not exactly a weak justification (though I certainly don't agree). But think of it this way. A cop or two asks to look around your house to look for someone/evidence. You can say no and they have to obey. But if it gets to the point that they have to look in your house (i.e. have a warrant), if you try to stop them then they have every right to push you out the way because you're now seriously preventing them from catching a criminal.
It's the same here. It's just the cops are now the house owner and the house Samara needs to look at is outside the station.

In this case, however, the cops do have a warrant. And you're threatening to shoot them if they don't leave in five minutes.

You would be completely in the wrong.

Sorry, it's like 4:15 in the morning and I can't focus enough to split the quotes up right here for easy reading.


I was never claiming the cops were in the wrong, My "sort-of criminals" was me saying how unintentionally the cops were in the role of preventing Samara catching a criminal. The cops are fine and did no wrong.
I was merely saying how it wasn't some weak justification. Perhaps us using the word justification is wrong here to be honest as well. But what I mean is it's not for some stupid reason that doesn't make some reasonable sense, wherein we should spit on Samara for it.
The main problem is the cops are looking for the vouls killer not Morinth. Morinth is the bigger problem (whether or not the cops should be looking for Morinth or not isn't what I'm saying), and letting her escape justice (and that is justice as it's firm asari law for good reason) is generally a bad thing to do.
Her being culturally-specific vigilante is a bit iffy admittedly but technically is the point of the mission. Justicars are perfectly fine, kind-of cops in asari space. It's stated the troubles are all from it not being asari space and the possible interspecies incidents it may cause. 

Detained/arrest is more the same thing here. They WERE going to put her in a cell till she pointed out the code (which the detective repects herself).


And your taking my senario too literally. Think of it as if you're Samara. For hundreds of years you hunted this extremely dangerous criminal, you're close to catching her, but these nice police people are stopping you. Obviously you want to go along with them and even do for a bit, but sooner or later, if they stop you from leaving, that criminal is going to get away and be even more evil. So naturally you may very well get forceful with them about it. But as they're nice, you'll warn them and if they don't physically try to stop you, you won't bother them.

Again I stress that I don't agree. But to Samara there's a certain point were those innocents are hindering her from stopping a mass murder. And not the kind us humans know if either. The kind that can brainwash and entire villiage to breed victims for her. So Samara will feel she has to (regretably, her words) use force.

Or if want, Shepard disobeying the council and taking the Normandy to Ilos. The council are the authority on Shepard (more so than the cops to Samara), but Shepard knows/feels something far more important is at hand and steals his ship back. We can only say that was the right thing to do in hindsight. What if the council WAS right, Saren tried to take the citadel for only greedy reasons and his tricking you to the terminus has caused a massive war? Far more innocents would of died my Shepard's rash choices there.


BEDTIME!  

[Bigdoser]

I agree with dean its rather lazy that there is no content for morinith and I think it would of been rather interesting if shepard could get cybernetic upgrades to handle joining with morinith could of been really interesting.

[Unholyknight800]

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAE6ybte0kg

[VirtualSoldier27]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

is Shepard a crazy vigilante zealout ?,

Can be.

he is on trial for a number of offences,that went against Alliance and Council commands, but he was doing what he felt was the right thing to do

In Arrival, Shepard actually has the twin justifications of (a) being tasked by a recognized authority, and ( the consequences of not acting were the deaths of everyone everywhere.

is Garrus a crazy vigalante zealout ?, doesnt like the C-Sec red tape, so he travels to omega and starts killing everyone he deems a criminal, and anyone who gets in his way, infact he almost kills Shepard before he realized who he was, again, he may be going against the book,but he is also doing what he feels is the right thing

Garrus does certainly have a few screws loose, and he certainly was a vigilante. He wasn't a zealot though.

Mordin, he is a former Salarian STG operative, who broke away to carry out his own morals and ambitions, he kills people that he deems dangerous or possibly dangerous "Different Ways To Help,Curing Sick People,and Killing Dangerous People before They Can Hurt Others"

Mordin is certainly a top-tier war criminal. He's not a zealot, however.

like I have said many times, Samara fits right in with the group, she swore an oath to Shepard,a Human, something Justicars simply never do, even to other Asari's, and she is loyal, however her daughter Morinth is a manipultive sociopathic killer

Samara's the only zealot, actually. And since the Oaths of Subsumission exist, it is apparent that Justicars do on occassion swear oaths to other people.

Now, Morinth is still a manipulative sociopathic killer, but that in no way implies that Samara doesn't kill a lot more people for more effect.

and there is no implications that Samara ever killed an innocent person, but its a fact that Morinth seeks out innocent people to kill, I have no Sympathy for her at all,and cant understand why there is so many people defending her and attacking samara in this thread, that like defending the Joker and putting down batman, or defending hitler while putting down the Allies 

[nategator]

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

VirtualSoldier27 wrote...

is Shepard a crazy vigilante zealout ?,

Can be.

he is on trial for a number of offences,that went against Alliance and Council commands, but he was doing what he felt was the right thing to do

In Arrival, Shepard actually has the twin justifications of (a) being tasked by a recognized authority, and ( the consequences of not acting were the deaths of everyone everywhere.

is Garrus a crazy vigalante zealout ?, doesnt like the C-Sec red tape, so he travels to omega and starts killing everyone he deems a criminal, and anyone who gets in his way, infact he almost kills Shepard before he realized who he was, again, he may be going against the book,but he is also doing what he feels is the right thing

Garrus does certainly have a few screws loose, and he certainly was a vigilante. He wasn't a zealot though.

Mordin, he is a former Salarian STG operative, who broke away to carry out his own morals and ambitions, he kills people that he deems dangerous or possibly dangerous "Different Ways To Help,Curing Sick People,and Killing Dangerous People before They Can Hurt Others"

Mordin is certainly a top-tier war criminal. He's not a zealot, however.

like I have said many times, Samara fits right in with the group, she swore an oath to Shepard,a Human, something Justicars simply never do, even to other Asari's, and she is loyal, however her daughter Morinth is a manipultive sociopathic killer

Samara's the only zealot, actually. And since the Oaths of Subsumission exist, it is apparent that Justicars do on occassion swear oaths to other people.

Now, Morinth is still a manipulative sociopathic killer, but that in no way implies that Samara doesn't kill a lot more people for more effect.

and there is no implications that Samara ever killed an innocent person, but its a fact that Morinth seeks out innocent people to kill, I have no Sympathy for her at all,and cant understand why there is so many people defending her and attacking samara in this thread, that like defending the Joker and putting down batman, or defending hitler while putting down the Allies 

Or siding with Tony Soprano and putting down the FBI?