26 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Liara
Kaidan
Jacob
EDI
Legion
Tali
Garrus
Mordin
Miranda
Thane
Ashley
Samara
Wrex
Zaeed
Grunt
Jack
Morinth

What do you think?

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[Siansonea]

How is Samara so far down the list? She's Lawful as all get-out. I associate lawful behavior with Paragon, and "end justifies the means" behavior as Renegade. I'd put Kaidan as the most Paragon, he's much more by-the-book than Shadow Broker Liara, and I'd put Jacob much further down the list, because he worked with Cerberus.

Here's my list:

Kaidan—Spectre, poster boy for Alliance loyalty.
Ashley—Spectre, poster girl for Alliance loyalty.
Legion—unwavering supporter of geth rights.
EDI—unwavering supporter of organinc and synthetic rights.
Samara—unwavering servant of the Justicar Code.
James—Mostly by-the-book Alliance soldier.
Grunt—Loyal and straightforward krogan soldier.
Kasumi—Good person, but doesn't respect property rights.
Garrus—Vigilante, but he's trying to establish "law" in a lawless place.Jacob—Wants to do the right thing, but will take shortcuts and work for terrorists.
Liara—Sweet and demure, but traffics in sensitive information and commands cadres of operatives for missions that aren't strictly legal, believes the ends justify the means.
Mordin—Delves headlong into morally grey issues, doesn't always make the "good" decision
Tali—Willing to conceal evidence of war crimes to protect her father's posthumous reputation.
Miranda—Cerberus operative, believes in Cerberus' goals
Wrex—Mercenary turned warlord of the krogan
Thane—Assassin, but not a vicious one.
Jack—Loose cannon, but doesn't go out of her way to kill people.
Zaeed—Will kill innocents to achieve his goal of revenge.
Morinth—Will kill innocents to achieve a momentary high.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 mai 2012 - 04:32 .

[Wulfram]

(focusing one where we seem to disagree most)

Samara is very by the book. But her book is very renegade - it's about executing wrongdoers without mercy or a trial.
Ashley is pretty consistently on the Renegade side in every choice in ME1. And her attitude towards the Geth and the Asari suggests to me she hasn't changed all that much.
Grunt, he's obedient and loyal. But he definitely enjoys killing things.
Jacob he joined Cerberus on fairly clear terms. But to be honest he confuses me a bit.
Liara may be the shadowbroker, but she's very consistently paragon in her dialogue and opinions.

[EricHVela]

Jack? The School Teacher who is violently protective of her kids? The one that wanted to keep them as a support role (the paragon option) rather than in the thick of it (the renegade option)?

No. I would redeem her closer to the middle for her role in ME3 -- upper Renegade at the lowest.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 mai 2012 - 06:16 .

[EricHVela]

Mine would be (at the end of ME3):
Kaidan
James
Tali
Liara
Anderson
Mordin
Legion
Shepard
Ashley
EDI
Joker
Thane
Garrus
Miranda
Jack
Kasumi
Wrex
Grunt
Samara
Javik
Zaeed
Morinth

Where's Jenkins in that? I haven't a clue. Didn't know him well enough.

However, my scale would be logarithmic. There would be a huge difference between Zaeed and Mornth, less between Javik and Zaeed, less between Samara and Javik, less between Grunt and Samara and so on. While Morinth would be total Renegade in my book (even at the end of ME3 -- even including cut content), Zaeed would only be 66-75% Renegade. Javik would be ~60%. Samara would be ~55%. And so on. (The remaining % of each would be Paragon.)

(Don't forget that Anderson is a squadmate for a short period. Joker is the squad in a tiny part of ME2.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 mai 2012 - 06:33 .

[MACharlie1]

Unfortunately, you really can't go with such a tight system. You need the big ol Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart.

Lawful Paragon:
Kaidan Alenko
Tali Zorah
David Anderson
EDI (she is bound by programming but uses it for good)

Neutral Paragon:
Ashley Williams
James Vega
Liara T'Soni (shifted from lawful paragon to neutral when becoming Shadow Broker)
Joker

Chaotic Paragon:
Garrus Vakarian
Kasumi Goto
Thane Krios
Jack (shifts from Chaotic Neutral in ME3)
Jacob Taylor

Lawful Neutral:
Samara

True Neutral:
Miranda Lawson (Miranda could have shifted to Paragon Neutral if she wasn't so bloody concerned about her sister)
Urdnot Wrex
Mordin Solus
LEGION

Chaotic Neutral:
Grunt

Lawful Renegade:
NONE

Neutral Renegade:
Zaeed
Javik

Chaotic Renegade:
Morinth

Modifié par MACharlie1, 04 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[EricHVela]

Going by the D&D+ME grid, I agree with you except for Javik.

He seemed stuck in a strict dogma that was characteristic of the Prothean Empire. I would have pushed him into Lawful.

[DirtySHISN0]

EDI, Legion, Mordin - neutral

Ashley, Kaidan - Douchebag

The others shift to varying degrees in action and intent.

[Shajar]

Full Paragon

EDI
Mordin
Tali

Paragon

Garrus
Legion
Kaidan
Kasumi
Thane
Samara

Paragon/Renegade

Liara
Ashley
Wrex
Grunt
James
Jack

Renegade

Morinth
Zaeed
Javik
Miranda

[Wulfram]

A question for those who don't put Liara as full Paragon

Which decisions do you think she would have picked Renegade, if she was in Shepard's place?

[Quething]

With Liara it's not so much about what she would do as what she has. Her treatment of her informant and her attitude about the civilians whose deaths cover her escape in LotSB is pure Renegade. She regains a bit of her ME1 Paragon attitude in 3 when she says stuff like "I wouldn't really flay a dude with my mind, I was totes bluffing," but she never actually backs that up with any positive, paragon opinions of Shepard's actions. In ME1 she'll stridently argue that the Rachni Queen should be saved. In 3 in the same situation she doesn't even comment. Nor does she have an opinion on the quarian/geth thing or the genophage cure.

Now, it's true that in ME3 none of your squadmates ever comment on or object to your actions, they only ever tell you how cool you are after the fact and how they support your hard decisions, and even then only on rare occasions and only a few of them. But the fact remains, those arguments are gone, and the only thing we have to measure squadmates by currently is their actions. And Liara shoots a friend and former comrade in cold blood without blinking. A far cry from the young idealistic paragon who pled with her mother to stop fighting Shep.

[xbb1024]

Wulfram wrote...

(focusing one where we seem to disagree most)

Samara is very by the book. But her book is very renegade - it's about executing wrongdoers without mercy or a trial.
Ashley is pretty consistently on the Renegade side in every choice in ME1. And her attitude towards the Geth and the Asari suggests to me she hasn't changed all that much.
Grunt, he's obedient and loyal. But he definitely enjoys killing things.
Jacob he joined Cerberus on fairly clear terms. But to be honest he confuses me a bit.
Liara may be the shadowbroker, but she's very consistently paragon in her dialogue and opinions.

All of this assumes a universal standard of what is paragon v renegade (which bioware does). Morality is a set of rules that if followed, ultimatly benefits whatever society you live in (subjective criteria), and will change over time as we discover what works and what does not.

[BatmanPWNS]

All the characters are too good to be justifed by that awful moral system Bioware made.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Quething wrote...

Now, it's true that in ME3 none of your squadmates ever comment on or object to your actions, they only ever tell you how cool you are after the fact and how they support your hard decisions, and even then only on rare occasions and only a few of them.

It's easier to see their opinions if you contrast their statements for your different choices. For example, if you let the quarians die, Garrus will say something like "It was your choice, and I respect that", while if you let the geth die, he reminds yoiu of all the people they'd killed and says that he's not sorry they're gone. Kaidan's reactions are similar. From this it's easy to tell which side they favour, even if they never tell you in any situation that they think you did anything wrong.

At any rate, it's still better than ME1's awful system, where squadmates would change their opiinons on the rachni and Counil depending on who the other person in your squad was. Which can lead to funny things like this.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 05 mai 2012 - 12:53 .

[Grimwick]

I don't think Liara is as paragon as you make out! In LotSB/ME2 she turns into a serious paragade - the right ideas, but ruthless enough to kill anyone in her way. To top that she then takes over and controls the whole of the Shadow broker's criminal network... not exactly the most paragon option.

In ME3 she does take back a lot of her paragon self, you can see after Thessia as well as all the hints that she is using her information assets to help refugees. That said, she is still renegade enough to kill in cold blood - take the cerberus troops when you first see her in ME3.

I agree mostly with the OP's order though I would put Garrus and Liara below Thane and Samara/Ashley higher up.

[darthnick427]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Unfortunately, you really can't go with such a tight system. You need the big ol Dungeons and Dragons alignment chart.

Lawful Paragon:
Kaidan Alenko
Tali Zorah
David Anderson
EDI (she is bound by programming but uses it for good)

Neutral Paragon:
Ashley Williams
James Vega
Liara T'Soni (shifted from lawful paragon to neutral when becoming Shadow Broker)
Joker

Chaotic Paragon:
Garrus Vakarian
Kasumi Goto
Thane Krios
Jack (shifts from Chaotic Neutral in ME3)
Jacob Taylor

Lawful Neutral:
Samara

True Neutral:
Miranda Lawson (Miranda could have shifted to Paragon Neutral if she wasn't so bloody concerned about her sister)
Urdnot Wrex
Mordin Solus
LEGION

Chaotic Neutral:
Grunt

Lawful Renegade:
NONE

Neutral Renegade:
Zaeed
Javik

Chaotic Renegade:
Morinth

Agreed with all of this list

[LelianaHawke]

You all forgot Kelly... lists are invalid.

After ME3, when Kelly goes to help refugees, and refuses the offer to go back to the Normandy due to both Shepard and her having obligations, would put her as paragon.

[merylisk]

I would put Javik as Lawful Renegade.

[Shajar]

Wulfram wrote...

A question for those who don't put Liara as full Paragon

Which decisions do you think she would have picked Renegade, if she was in Shepard's place?

Well, ME1 Liara was paragon, but ME2 and ME3 she was just cold hearted bastard. 

[Quething]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

It's easier to see their opinions if you contrast their statements for your different choices. For example, if you let the quarians die, Garrus will say something like "It was your choice, and I respect that", while if you let the geth die, he reminds yoiu of all the people they'd killed and says that he's not sorry they're gone. Kaidan's reactions are similar. From this it's easy to tell which side they favour, even if they never tell you in any situation that they think you did anything wrong.

At any rate, it's still better than ME1's awful system, where squadmates would change their opiinons on the rachni and Counil depending on who the other person in your squad was. Which can lead to funny things like this.

The rachni choice is actually one of the places in the game where they're all completely consistent. Ash and Wrex always want you to kill her even if you take both of them. Garrus will always want to pass the buck to the Council. Liara and Kaidan will always tell you killing her is wrong. I actually have no idea what Tali will do as I've never taken her, but I'm willing to say she never waffles on it either.

That said, in ME1 this list is really easy exactly because of the mechanic you mention. Because the paragon/renegade hierarchy is laid out right there in the dialog tree. Take two squadmates to the endgame. See which one advocates letting the Council die, and pulls the trigger on Saren. That one's more Renegade than the other. IIRC, the dialog call order goes

Liara
Tali
Kaidan
Garrus
Ashley
Wrex

With the exception that if you renegade Kaidan he drops below Wrex and if you paragon Ash she pulls above Liara. Sadly, I don't think whether you paragon or renegade Garrus has any influence on his actual behavior even in 1, though.

Obviously this changes a bit as the sequels progress. Once you bring geth into the picture Tali starts advocating shooting people just to be safe and covering up war crimes and drops down the scale a bit, and Liara, as we've been discussing, goes full red. Ash mellows out a lot whether you paragoned her or not and climbs a bit, though not as far as the other two fall IMO.

The ME2 guys are obviously a bit more guesswork. But I'm going to toss out the idea that it makes no sense to include Morinth at all. The Paragon/Renegade scale is supposed to be "two ways to be a hero." Renegade is not evil and a Renegade Shepard is still supposed to believe in the sanctity of life and the protection of the innocent. The fact that occasionally the writers forget they're not still doing Star Wars and toss in some total douchebag option doesn't change the theoretical premise of the scale, and the premise is that this is "are you idealistic, principled and pro-galactic community, or are you practical, risk-averse and pro-your species."

Morinth is neither. She's just a sociopath and sadist.

[Wulfram]

Shajar wrote...

Well, ME1 Liara was paragon, but ME2 and ME3 she was just cold hearted bastard. 

Her dialogue in ME3 is all "Ooh, civilians are in danger, we must save them", "Genophage is wrong", "Quarians and the Geth are going to be friends".  Extremely Paragon.

Not to mention, if you tell her she should decide what to say about Shepard in the Project scene, she says she disagrees with Shepard's decisions if they're a renegade.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Quething wrote...


The rachni choice is actually one of the places in the game where they're all completely consistent. Ash and Wrex always want you to kill her even if you take both of them. Garrus will always want to pass the buck to the Council. Liara and Kaidan will always tell you killing her is wrong. I actually have no idea what Tali will do as I've never taken her, but I'm willing to say she never waffles on it either.

Nope; I took Tali with Liara and she said something like "the rachni are dangerous", and took her with Garrus and she said something about how we didn't have the right to judge them. Totally inconsistent. I usually bring Liara for the Benezia thing, so I haven't tried that many different Noveria combinations, and thus can't say if Tali's the only one who acts this way.

That said, in ME1 this list is really easy exactly because of the mechanic you mention. Because the paragon/renegade hierarchy is laid out right there in the dialog tree. Take two squadmates to the endgame. See which one advocates letting the Council die, and pulls the trigger on Saren. That one's more Renegade than the other. IIRC, the dialog call order goes

Liara
Tali
Kaidan
Garrus
Ashley
Wrex

I'm pretty sure the order for the Council choice actually goes

Kaidan
Liara
Garrus
Tali
Wrex
Ashley

Garrus is a little higher here than he otherwise would be on the P/R scale though, seeing as he belongs to a Council race and thus would be more invested in them surviving.

I'm also fairly sure that "who recommends killing the Council" and "who shoots Saren" do not always match up.

Obviously this changes a bit as the
sequels progress. Once you bring geth into the picture Tali starts
advocating shooting people just to be safe and covering up war crimes
and drops down the scale a bit, and Liara, as we've been discussing,
goes full red. Ash mellows out a lot whether you paragoned her or not
and climbs a bit, though not as far as the other two fall IMO.

I don't recall Tali ever advocating shooting people (well, optional-kill people, that is); also you mention geth, which she becomes more paragon in her view of over the series, not less. And I recall revealing the evidence being the Renegade choice, not hiding it.

Now Liara does seem to become more Renegade in ME2, but come ME3 appears to have gone back to being more Paragon (although not to the same extent as in ME1).

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 06 mai 2012 - 12:11 .

[MACharlie1]

This is why I like the alignment chart - much easier to think of in terms of being lawful, neutral or chaotic.

Liara, in ME1, was lawful paragon. Followed the rules and believed in good. In ME2, she still believes in doing good but becomes the Shadow Broker - an essentially illegal position considering all the intel she has and doesn't even bother telling the governments involved about it. However, as Shadow Broker, she is constantly keeping everyone in check - ensuring nobody gets the upper hand over another (see Barla Von in ME1) but again, she is using her position for good and not for her own selfish reasons. Puts her firmly in neutral paragon.

Tali however is...problematic. She wants to be lawful paragon but tends to get into trouble along the way. She tries to turn over her evidence on Saren to the authorities but gets turned away. She follows her peoples laws to a tee but ends up with information that could 1) Endanger the fleet and 2) destroy her father or get her exiled. She rather be exiled rather then reveal the information. Tali is a victim of circumstances that could waiver her to be neutral but at heart, she is lawful. She is also an advocate for the Citadel laws against aggression against the Geth and AI studying.

You really can't look at the big choices like the Rachni Queen and Council since the characters in ME1 are interchangeable. Seriously. Mod your game so only Tali goes with you to the Council during Saren's assault. She argues with herself over sacrificing it. Their opinions are based on which squadmember you chose first on Ilos.