137 réponses à ce sujet

[Anaeme]

There is a raging discussion on the Bethesda Forums about why their storytelling abilities have become so weak since Morrowind.

Some people are saying its writer turnover, others claim bethesda like other companies just dont give a Damn about stories anymore


http://forums.bethso...ss-or-strength/


Funny that Bioware has a full complement of writers and yet they produced DA2

[Chromie]

Anaeme wrote...
Funny that Bioware has a full complement of writers and yet they produced DA2

And mass Effect, Origins, Kotor..etc. They don't have great writing.

[horacethegrey]

Skelter192 wrote...

Anaeme wrote...
Funny that Bioware has a full complement of writers and yet they produced DA2

And mass Effect, Origins, Kotor..etc. They don't have great writing.

Speak for yourself. I thought DA Origins and Mass Effect 1 were great storytelling. 

[Cutlass Jack]

Anaeme wrote...

Funny that Bioware has a full complement of writers and yet they produced DA2

Except the issues with DA2 were not the writing or the storytelling. It was the time limitations it was produced under. The writers tried to be far too ambitious for the time/resources they had available. Especially (and with no small bit of irony) trying to tell a story over a decade.

[Anaeme]

I thing the bigger point is that once they come under time pressure, storytelling is the first to get thrown out the window

[android654]

The only thing Bioware did right was make a cast of likeable squad members. The rest is rather bland. I wouldn't say Bethesda's story telling is weak, since they convincingly create worlds and dozens upon dozens of characters with their own stories to fill that world. Their worlds are so expansive and have so much content that you could play for hundreds of hours and have new content to still uncover. Bioware couldn't pull that off if.

[Cutlass Jack]

Anaeme wrote...

I thing the bigger point is that once they come under time pressure, storytelling is the first to get thrown out the window

Not always. Usually the cut comes in art and resources. The big complaints in DA2 came down to that: Repeated dungeons/environments, no visual differences in people/environments during time jumps, no alternate costumes for companions, Filler content with ninja hordes etc. Had all that been done well, they could have sold their other ideas better.

The actual storytelling part of it, particularly the cutscenes/conversations, was pretty solid for the most part.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 04 mai 2012 - 11:44 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Anaeme wrote...

Funny that Bioware has a full complement of writers and yet they produced DA2

Except the issues with DA2 were not the writing or the storytelling. It was the time limitations it was produced under. The writers tried to be far too ambitious for the time/resources they had available. Especially (and with no small bit of irony) trying to tell a story over a decade.

I THINK THAT DRAGON AGE 2 HAD MANY ISSUES, SOME CAUSED BY THE TIME LIMITATION AND OTHERS CAUSED BY QUESTIONABLE DESIGN DECISIONS.

FOR INSTANCE: THE DECISION THAT ALMOST EVERY PC DIALOGUE CHOICE NEEDS A "SNARKY" OPTION. TIM SCHAFER IS THE ONLY WRITER I CAN THINK OF IN THE GAMES INDUSTRY WHO CAN BE FUNNY THAT CONSISTENTLY, AND HAWKE'S DIALOGUE WAS CLEARLY NOT WRITTEN BY TIM SCHAFER.

[horacethegrey]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
I THINK THAT DRAGON AGE 2 HAD MANY ISSUES, SOME CAUSED BY THE TIME LIMITATION AND OTHERS CAUSED BY QUESTIONABLE DESIGN DECISIONS.

FOR INSTANCE: THE DECISION THAT ALMOST EVERY PC DIALOGUE CHOICE NEEDS A "SNARKY" OPTION. TIM SCHAFER IS THE ONLY WRITER I CAN THINK OF IN THE GAMES INDUSTRY WHO CAN BE FUNNY THAT CONSISTENTLY, AND HAWKE'S DIALOGUE WAS CLEARLY NOT WRITTEN BY TIM SCHAFER.

And any dialogue not written by Tim Schafer is by default unfunny? I don't know about you but I found many of Hawke's snarky quips to be hilarious.

I like Tim Schafer and the work he's done, but he's not the be all and end all of videogame humor.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

horacethegrey wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
I THINK THAT DRAGON AGE 2 HAD MANY ISSUES, SOME CAUSED BY THE TIME LIMITATION AND OTHERS CAUSED BY QUESTIONABLE DESIGN DECISIONS.

FOR INSTANCE: THE DECISION THAT ALMOST EVERY PC DIALOGUE CHOICE NEEDS A "SNARKY" OPTION. TIM SCHAFER IS THE ONLY WRITER I CAN THINK OF IN THE GAMES INDUSTRY WHO CAN BE FUNNY THAT CONSISTENTLY, AND HAWKE'S DIALOGUE WAS CLEARLY NOT WRITTEN BY TIM SCHAFER.

And any dialogue not written by Tim Schafer is by default unfunny? I don't know about you but I found many of Hawke's snarky quips to be hilarious.

I like Tim Schafer and the work he's done, but he's not the be all and end all of videogame humor.

THE POINT OF THAT POST IS NOT JUST A CHANCE FOR ME TO SUCK TIM SCHAFER'S GAMES DESIGN PEEN, ALTHOUGH THAT IS A SECONDARY FOCUS. THE PRIMARY POINT IS THAT WRITERS SHOULD HAVE AN ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF HOW GOOD THEIR COMEDY WRITING IS, AND SHOULDN'T GIVE COMEDY A CENTRAL ROLE IN THEIR WRITING UNLESS THEY'RE REASONABLY SURE IT WON'T MAKE  A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THEIR AUDIENCE CRINGE THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH THEIR GAME.

[Cutlass Jack]

Sorry I refuse to quote anyone who keeps the caps lock on. Personal rule. But there were some damn funny bits in DA2. Of course, not every bit is to every player's tastes. However no one was forced to click on them.

Now at risk of getting back on the actual topic, how many times can you recall intentionally laughing at a bit of dialogue in Skyrim? The only bit of dialogue anyone seems to remember is about an arrow to the knee.
 

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 04 mai 2012 - 12:27 .

[horacethegrey]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

horacethegrey wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
I THINK THAT DRAGON AGE 2 HAD MANY ISSUES, SOME CAUSED BY THE TIME LIMITATION AND OTHERS CAUSED BY QUESTIONABLE DESIGN DECISIONS.

FOR INSTANCE: THE DECISION THAT ALMOST EVERY PC DIALOGUE CHOICE NEEDS A "SNARKY" OPTION. TIM SCHAFER IS THE ONLY WRITER I CAN THINK OF IN THE GAMES INDUSTRY WHO CAN BE FUNNY THAT CONSISTENTLY, AND HAWKE'S DIALOGUE WAS CLEARLY NOT WRITTEN BY TIM SCHAFER.

And any dialogue not written by Tim Schafer is by default unfunny? I don't know about you but I found many of Hawke's snarky quips to be hilarious.

I like Tim Schafer and the work he's done, but he's not the be all and end all of videogame humor.

THE POINT OF THAT POST IS NOT JUST A CHANCE FOR ME TO SUCK TIM SCHAFER'S GAMES DESIGN PEEN, ALTHOUGH THAT IS A SECONDARY FOCUS. THE PRIMARY POINT IS THAT WRITERS SHOULD HAVE AN ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF HOW GOOD THEIR COMEDY WRITING IS, AND SHOULDN'T GIVE COMEDY A CENTRAL ROLE IN THEIR WRITING UNLESS THEY'RE REASONABLY SURE IT WON'T MAKE  A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THEIR AUDIENCE CRINGE THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH THEIR GAME.

In your opinion...

I have my issues with DAII as well, but the option to have a snarky Hawke was not one of them. And I found it funny. 

[TheMufflon]

Why am I not surprised that 8/11 posts in this thread are actually about BioWare writing?

As for Bethesda; the issue isn't so much that their storytelling "went bad" after Morrowind, so much as it was only after Morrowind that they actually tried to tell stories.

[Cyberarmy]

Did Bethesda games have stories? You could have fooled me.
Im playing just for the excitment of thievery (Not with a bucket on the head ...)

BTW brace yourselves, Elderscrolls MMORPG is comming

[Mylia Stenetch]

Skelter192 wrote...

Anaeme wrote...
Funny that Bioware has a full complement of writers and yet they produced DA2

And mass Effect, Origins, Kotor..etc. They don't have great writing.

Most video games out there do not have great writing. This is noting new in the realms of games, it is how those people enjoy the stories.

[Il Divo]

Generally, I do consider the TES games to be weak writing. Morrowind's main narrative was epic in scope, though the presentation could have used some work. The Oblivion storyline, aside from Martin Septim was pretty bland, and I found Skyrim's story to be anti-climactic.

Luckily, main storyline is not typically what I'm engaged in Bethesda games for.

[happy_daiz]

I think Bethesda's writing is fantastic - it's just not in-your-face dialogue/story like BioWare's style of storytelling. The lore is interesting, and if you actually take the time to read the books, there are some gems hidden among them.

Personally, I enjoy both BioWare and Bethesda's writing styles - with BioWare storytelling, you directly interact with people, situations unfold, and it cumulatively becomes the story. In Bethesda's writing, the story is already there, it just hasn't quite been unraveled yet - it's up to you to play adventurer, and find it. Some people don't like that.

Life would certainly be boring if everyone liked and disliked the same things.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 04 mai 2012 - 01:26 .

[ReallyRue]

I don't think I'd say Bethesda's storytelling is bad. The main story is usually quite short and the characters aren't as deep or memorable as Bioware's, however they're populating an entire country with characters that you can talk to, so obviously they aren't going to be the same as Bioware's. Also, the story of the world itself, understanding the politics, history, etc, I think that's all excellently done. I feel just as absorbed in the world of, say, Skyrim, as I do in Dragon Age, but for different reasons.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 04 mai 2012 - 01:40 .

[LPPrince]

Bethesda's priorities are on world design, not story and characters. But we all know that already.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Find it interesting that on the ESF boards, the discussion is centered on the issue of story pacing, quest linearity, plot structure, involvement of the environment or gameworld, the actual events in the plot, as well as the choice/consequence dynamic and how it all relates to a good story and roleplaying experience (and how poor Skyrim's was). Whereas here, it's more about the how well written dialog sequences are.

There's no real point to make except that it speaks firmly to the kinds of narratives both companies pursue and highlights what the fans of each company consider to be "storytelling".

FWIW, I find that the Old World Blues and Dead Money DLCs for Fallout: New Vegas had much better storytelling than the recent offerings of either company. Whether one actually likes the stories or gameplay of the DLCs is certainly debatable. But the storytelling itself as it conforms to the video game medium and the RPG genre is quite impressive.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 04 mai 2012 - 01:53 .

[Arcadian Legend]

LPPrince wrote...

Bethesda's priorities are on world design, not story and characters. But we all know that already.

I know that and I've barely touched any Bethesda games.

[slimgrin]

Forget overarching plots and the writing in Bethesda's games can be quite good. Fallout 3 had great humor and tons of interesting bits to read when hacking.

[Seboist]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

And mass Effect, Origins, Kotor..etc. They don't have great writing.

Yes. I don't know why people persist in telling themselves this.

True, they're all b-grade "Save the world from the Dragon" fluff (literally in DA:O's case) with antagonists that have no more depth than the ones from Ninja Gaiden.