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On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is such an attractive choice


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#1
Ieldra

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In this thread, I'll present some evidence for the hypothesis that the Reapers are as much victims of the cycle as the species they were made from, and that it is the Catalyst who makes them do what they do. As a consequence of insights into the Reapers' nature, the Synthesis ending becomes more attractive.

On the nature of the Reapers:
In the trilogy, we get two pieces of information about the nature of the Reapers:
(1) Legion in ME2: "Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. "Each a nation".
(2) The Catalyst in ME3: "We helped them ascend, so that they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

What came to me first when hearing this again is the insight that the Reapers are physically synthetic, not bio-synthetic (EDI's speculation at the Collector Base was wrong).The processing of organics isn't used to build the structure, but to re-encode their idenities into a new form. All that is left is information, and the genetic material is only used to extract information about the physical forms. Could they have done that without destroying the host? Of course they could have, but as we all now know, the purpose was as much to destroy the old form as to create the new one.

But the more interesting question that comes up is this: If everything those species had been - their identities, the memories of their material culture, their ideas, memories of their lives - are preserved within a Reaper, then why the hell are they doing all this? Why do they serve the cycle and do to others what has been done to them? Without fail, without any drop-outs? For if those billions of uploaded minds were mangled beyond recognition, like the Collectors were, beyond all saving as we know from Mordin, insane by the standards of their old identities, their minds lost, then they could not be the "old life preserved in Reaper form", they would be something else.

The plausible, almost obvious answer is: they're mind-controlled by the Catalyst.

On the nature of mind control:
To understand where I'm coming from, it is important to see that all those instances of "mind control" we see in the games aren't in fact mind control. Anderson? His mind is free, his body is controlled. The same with Shepard when he shoots Anderson. Grayson? His mind was in the process of being conquered and destroyed, not controlled. Because true mind control is something you will not notice! If you are truly mind-controlled, if your will is subverted, you will do what you want - and it will be what your master wants. You will not just be "not allowed to think or act differently", you simply will not think or act differently. There is no fight, no resistance, your actions will feel as natural to you as they would were you not mind controlled. THAT is mind control.

To get back to the Reapers, this kind of mind control is what it takes to get the Reapers to act like they do,without fail every single time one is created, and still feel and act like individual Reapers, even to themselves. And all it takes is to maintain a single "truth" in the conjoined minds: "The cycle is necessary. It is inevitable. What was done to you was necessary and inevitable. Your form is what it was always meant to be."

How does the Catalyst control the Reapers:
Remember what the Catalyst says about itself: "The Citadel is part of me". This implies that there are other parts and raises the question "what are the other parts"? Now I'm going to speculate a bit and postulate that the other parts are in the Reaper bodies, and that the Catalyst's consciousness is distributed between the Citadel as the primary seat and parts of the Reapers. Multiple-body super-intelligent beings have been ossasionally used in SF literature since...hmm...I think it started 1988 with "Neverness" (corrections welcome), so this is not an exotic concept. The parts external to the Citadel allow the Catalyst to maintain its mind control.

I will conclude, thus, that the Reapers' fate, beyond "they are not a threat anymore" which applies to all endings, is not inconsequential for the final choice. From the moral angle, destroying them is multiple genocide, and controlling them keeps them enslaved. From the practical angle, the knowledge of countless cycles will be destroyed if you destroy them. Thus, let's have another look the choice that avoids that:

How the Synthesis relates to the Reapers:
There is this term that comes up in association with the Reapers and Synthesis both: "pinnacle of evolution/final evolution of life". Legion associates "Unity. Understanding. Transcendence" with the state of the Reapers. Now obviously the "final evolution" is hyperbole, for there can't be such a thing and even if there was, the Reapers wouldn't be it, or we wouldn't be able to destroy them.
And even if the process weren't so horrific and the result so butt-ugly,
we are not ready for the Reaper's kind of ascension, that "Unity". We want to remain individuals physically and mentally, thank you very much. But "understanding" and "transcendence" would figure prominently in any description of advanced life which has taken a step, or several steps, forward on some scale of artificial evolution.

Synthesis - a selective transcendence:
So what does the Synthesis achieve? Rather obviously, it doesn't conjoin any minds and implant them into a machine body. Nor does it turn anyone into a giant cuttlefish, a tentacled monster or any other disgust-evoking lifeform (just watch the ending sequence). Nor is any interpretation that lessens minds in the spirit of the Synthesis. But if the terms used to describe it have any meaning within the themes touched by the story, then post-Synthesis intelligent life will have the tools to transcend fundamental limitations of its previous condition and gain an understanding of the universe on par with the Reapers (with post-Synthesis life having inherited the potential for self-improvement from pre-Synthesis synthetics, as I have described in my Synthesis thread). In addition to that, the remnants of the species of past cycles will all be preserved along with all their knowledge and experience, and freed from the Catalyst's mind control, we can expect any future interaction to be less hostile that it has been. No, things will not be perfect - as long as there is life, there will be conflict - but the cycle has stolen millions of years of potential advancement from the intelligent life of the galaxy. I would even postulate that had the cycle not happened and organic and synthetic life survived against all odds, then there would be a symbiosis of synthetic and organic life at this point in time. Synthesis will give part of that lost potential back.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 juin 2012 - 09:18 .


#2
pro5

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Ieldra2 wrote...

"final evolution" is hyperbole, for there can't be such a thing and even if there was, the Reapers wouldn't be it, or we wouldn't be able to destroy them.

Yet they refer to themselves as "pinnacle of evolution"... What a funny coincidence, isn't it? :innocent:

Watch the video in this thread for my explanation of Synthesis.

#3
Ieldra

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*sigh* I'm getting *so* sick of you pro-Destroy fundamentalists.

#4
The Angry One

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You really think it's okay for the Reaper agenda to be proved right, and for the [unrepentant] Reapers to leave us to go terrorise some other galaxy of organics and synthetics?

You say destroy is genocide for killing Reapers? Then I say with synthesis you are guilty of tactitly supporting Reaper genocide, not only what they have done, but what they will do to some other innocent organic and synthetic species elsewhere.

#5
Taboo

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Hmmm. I still don't like it but I certainly see the possibility of improvement. I don't really think I could bring myself to pick much of anything. I don't like having that kind of thing looming over one person's head. I don't think he has the right to make the choice.

More information is needed.

Interesting though.

#6
pro5

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Ieldra2 wrote...

*sigh* I'm getting *so* sick of you pro-Destroy fundamentalists.


You've stopped watching before reaching the juicy parts, didn't you? :blush:

It's much more than simply "good guys are for Destroy, thus everything else sucks". Try skipping to 22:38 and start watching from there. The most "offending" parts of this "pro-Destroy" video will be over, hopefully. 

#7
incinerator950

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The Angry One wrote...

You really think it's okay for the Reaper agenda to be proved right, and for the [unrepentant] Reapers to leave us to go terrorise some other galaxy of organics and synthetics?

You say destroy is genocide for killing Reapers? Then I say with synthesis you are guilty of tactitly supporting Reaper genocide, not only what they have done, but what they will do to some other innocent organic and synthetic species elsewhere.


Innocence is subjective, but you have a valid point.  So does Ieldra. 

#8
The Angry One

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"Innocence" in that nobody deserves to be reaped. Except possibly the Raloi.

#9
Sparse

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The problem with the options is that they aren't properly framed. People shouldn't be having to rationalise decisions because they should have been making an informed choice in-game.

'Synthesis' could mean lots of things, it could mean immortality for all, it could mean total stagnation, it could mean population explosion, it could mean inevitable war. Same with the other options, they are too vague.

#10
Taboo

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All the choices suck without more info.

None are ethical. It comes down to a matter of taste.

#11
Jostle

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So synthesis makes everyone smarter?

Sorry, even if everything you said was true, I wouldn't take it upon myself to force everyone down that road. Some might actually be attached to existing as a human, salarian, asari, krogan, or turian and all that they entail.

#12
nitefyre410

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Interesting - you make some good points here

#13
incinerator950

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The Angry One wrote...

"Innocence" in that nobody deserves to be reaped. Except possibly the Raloi.


What did they do to ****** you off?  Not that it took much.

#14
Vox Draco

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Ieldra2 wrote...

*sigh* I'm getting *so* sick of you pro-Destroy fundamentalists.


Funny, I feel the same whenever I read post that are desperatly grasping the straws at control or synthesis. I cannot understand their motivations, and never will share their point of view. Nevertheless I don't complain about them posting their opinions...but I take the right to diagree...

And I also disagree with your evidences...or better your assumptions...how synthesis should be interpreted.

If your Shepard, or you yourself, is ready to play this kind of mindgame and kill yourself because you truly believe synthesis is a viable option, than do it. By all means! It is your game, your galaxy, and I am glad not to live in this one. But MY Shepards (all of them) will never follow that route of thinking, never base the fate of the galaxy on those wild assumption and hope synthesis is good...

The risk to be wrong is simply too big...and not matter how eloquently you state your point, it will still be wishful thinking, no more, no less..

#15
The Angry One

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incinerator950 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

"Innocence" in that nobody deserves to be reaped. Except possibly the Raloi.


What did they do to ****** you off?  Not that it took much.


Being dirty cowards. Basically a whole planet of Jokers.

#16
Ieldra

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Taboo-XX wrote...
Hmmm. I still don't like it but I certainly see the possibility of improvement. I don't really think I could bring myself to pick much of anything. I don't like having that kind of thing looming over one person's head. I don't think he has the right to make the choice.

More information is needed.

Interesting though.

I respect not liking it on those grounds - it is not exactly a comfortable choice. And I definitely agree that more information is needed.

#17
incinerator950

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The Angry One wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

"Innocence" in that nobody deserves to be reaped. Except possibly the Raloi.


What did they do to ****** you off?  Not that it took much.


Being dirty cowards. Basically a whole planet of Jokers.


God damnit woman, now I have it stuck in my head if Seth Green tried pretending to be a bird and thus a symphony of squaking started.  All of it "Shepard".  

#18
d-boy15

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I didn't think the reaper is alive and when I kill reaper, I call it a mercy kill but it's just my opinion.
for me, something are beyond saving and one of that is the reaper. 

but that doesn't mean synthasis is evil choice... although, doesn't mean it the best choice like bioware
try to make players think. still prefer all choice to be equal becasue right now, it's not.

Modifié par d-boy15, 04 mai 2012 - 04:35 .


#19
incinerator950

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Hmmm. I still don't like it but I certainly see the possibility of improvement. I don't really think I could bring myself to pick much of anything. I don't like having that kind of thing looming over one person's head. I don't think he has the right to make the choice.

More information is needed.

Interesting though.

I respect not liking it on those grounds - it is not exactly a comfortable choice. And I definitely agree that more information is needed.


Indeed.

#20
Ieldra

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The Angry One wrote...
You really think it's okay for the Reaper agenda to be proved right, and for the [unrepentant] Reapers to leave us to go terrorise some other galaxy of organics and synthetics?

The Catalyst is destroyed, and the harvesting agenda doesn't exist without the Catalyst, because it won't bé mind-controlling the Reapers anymore.

#21
Raiil

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Understanding and transcendence is something that everyone else in the universe- synthetic and organic- needs to learn naturally, not by a hyperbeam of WTF. Without context, transcendence and understanding means nothing. A six year old with an insanely high IQ is still a six year old- you need experience, personal experience to truly understand and appreciate something.

We evolve- we grow- by going through the journey and living life. As Legion said, many paths to one end- and we need to travel that path, not be picked up and carried there without the context and situations that make the end game understandable.

And I won't even start into how incredibly immoral and unethical synthesis is on a genetic level.

#22
The Angry One

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Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
You really think it's okay for the Reaper agenda to be proved right, and for the [unrepentant] Reapers to leave us to go terrorise some other galaxy of organics and synthetics?

The Catalyst is destroyed, and the harvesting agenda doesn't exist without the Catalyst, because it won't bé mind-controlling the Reapers anymore.


Complete assumption. His agenda is maintained, preserved and vindicated by synthesis.
The Reapers revel in their work. Do you think Harbinger is going to view things differently? Do you honestly think he won't impose his genetic destiny on everybody who has yet to experience it?

#23
Taboo

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Hmmm. I still don't like it but I certainly see the possibility of improvement. I don't really think I could bring myself to pick much of anything. I don't like having that kind of thing looming over one person's head. I don't think he has the right to make the choice.

More information is needed.

Interesting though.

I respect not liking it on those grounds - it is not exactly a comfortable choice. And I definitely agree that more information is needed.


I also don't think my Shepard likes the idea of killing himself without knowing the possible side effects.

More information is needed.

#24
Sparse

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To be honest I didn't even consider Synthesis and Control and chose destroy because the Catalyst was wrong.

It's fundamentally wrong to presume a cycle based upon billions of variables will infinitely repeat itself purely because it has happened X number of times in the past - unless every single variable is identical then there are no guarantees of repetiton. Consequently the Reapers' raison d'etre was fundamentally flawed, therefore they needed to be stopped. Given that the Catalyst was wrong there was no reason to trust his judgement on either Synthesis or Control, so best to just get rid of the whole thing.

#25
MakeMineMako

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Ieldra2 wrote...

*sigh* I'm getting *so* sick of you pro-Destroy fundamentalists.



I'm not a "Pro-Destroy Fundamentalist".

I'm a "All Three Choices Are Equally Evil" fundamentalist.