196 réponses à ce sujet

[clennon8]

rekn2 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Whilst this is almost an association fallacy, you can't really argue against why this kind of thing makes synthesis such an odd, and really stupid, thing, to even have at the end of the game, let alone to choose.

It has no support except that which you imagine. 

The only few times it's even been remotely conceptualized it has always involved the enemy of the player. Saren's in the picture. He esssentially advocated synthesis in a slightly different form, but basically the same. Saren was insane, and indoctrinated.

Yeah, Saren advocated synthesis, and was indoctrinated.
Illusive Man advocated control, and was indoctrinated.

Funny how two indoctrinated villains advocate two of the ending choices, but most people still think IT is retarded because EC slide show.

Saren: "The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth."


Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.
_______________________________________________

Gavin Archer: I'm begging you, don't do anything rash.

Shepard: Rash? Like forcing your brother into an experiment?

Gavin Archer: I know how this must look, but I never intended any harm to come to him. You must believe me
______________________________________________

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.
_______________________________________________

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties! We could avoid war with the Geth altogether. That was the plan, anyway.
_______________________________________________

Shepard: What went wrong with the experiment?

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

_______________________________________________

Victory without casualties, playing god, giving genuine consciousness to an AI, doesn't that sound familiar?

Just replace 'David' with 'Shepard' in that last bolded sentence.

Yeah.

So, in Project Overlord we have a case of someone undergoing synthesis (hooks himself up to an AI), in an attempt to control an entire race, in the hopes of avoiding a destructive war.

The man who wants to control machines ends up being enslaved by the machine. Gee, I wonder what Bioware was trying to tell us.

the same damn thing in all 3 games, synthesis is bad, mkay

You must be one of those darn fundamentalists Ieldra2 keeps talking about.  Those situations you describe are completely different, because <reasons>.  If Shepard does it, it will be okay.  Indoctrination.  Pfffft.  What hooey.  Go back to UFO-chasing and bigfoot tracking, you loon.

Modifié par clennon8, 29 octobre 2012 - 07:28 .

[Bill Casey]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But that's the problem: indoctrination. It implies that Reaper technology is itself inherently evil. And that makes no sense.

So you would say psychotronic weaponry is inherently evil...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 29 octobre 2012 - 04:26 .

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

You know, I don't know what the hell BioWare was trying to say with this series. With the threat of indoctrination from Reaper tech and all those other examples that DoomsdayDevice posted, there really does seem to be a recurring anti-technology sentiment. It's incredibly inconsistent.

It's not inconsistent at all once you realize the ending is a boss battle between the player and indoctrination...

But that's the problem: indoctrination. It implies that Reaper technology is itself inherently evil. And that makes no sense.

Meanwhile, people don't seem to care that the mass relays and the Citadel are Reaper technology. In fact, why don't those things indoctrinate everyone?

That's why I think those who think along those lines should choose an ending where all Reaper tech is completely and irrevocably destroyed. Including the mass relays and the Citadel. You can't say "Reaper tech indoctrinates" on one hand and then exclude the parts whose destruction would be inconvenient.

[FOX216BC]

 Destroy is way more attractive if you ask me.

[DoomsdayDevice]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

You know, I don't know what the hell BioWare was trying to say with this series. With the threat of indoctrination from Reaper tech and all those other examples that DoomsdayDevice posted, there really does seem to be a recurring anti-technology sentiment. It's incredibly inconsistent.

It's not inconsistent at all once you realize the ending is a boss battle between the player and indoctrination...

But that's the problem: indoctrination. It implies that Reaper technology is itself inherently evil. And that makes no sense.

Meanwhile, people don't seem to care that the mass relays and the Citadel are Reaper technology. In fact, why don't those things indoctrinate everyone?

Are you kidding me? It is being alluded to several times in game that there seems to be a pacifying presence on the Citadel, that seems to make people forget about the war or not believe in the Reapers. The conversation you have with James Vega on the Citadel, for one.

Great bit of ending foreshadowing there, too.

Vega: "It's not right. It looks pretty, calm and peaceful, but it's not right. It's all just an illusion." (...)
Shepard:  "I can hardly believe it myself, like everything back on Earth was some kind of nightmare."

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 octobre 2012 - 04:25 .

[jtav]

Not really, considering the asari and salarians do the same thing. Ignoring the war as long as its not affecting you is a running theme of the game. IT is a conspiracy theory.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's why I think those who think along those lines should choose an ending where all Reaper tech is completely and irrevocably destroyed. Including the mass relays and the Citadel. You can't say "Reaper tech indoctrinates" on one hand and then exclude the parts whose destruction would be inconvenient.

I agree. Legion said we should achieve our own future, and reject the Reapers' gifts and the paths they set out for us to follow. I think that is why you blow up the crucible in destroy, and why the relays were destroyed in the original endings.

Because the crucible is yet another piece of technology we build, but do not understand. Again, we are following a path that was placed before us by others. Most likely the Reapers. Using it, will lead to our doom. That is why it needs to be destroyed.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 octobre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Steelcan]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's why I think those who think along those lines should choose an ending where all Reaper tech is completely and irrevocably destroyed. Including the mass relays and the Citadel. You can't say "Reaper tech indoctrinates" on one hand and then exclude the parts whose destruction would be inconvenient.

I agree. Legion said we should achieve our own future, and reject the Reapers' gifts and the paths they set out for us to follow. I think that is why you blow up the crucible in destroy, and why the relays were destroyed in the original endings.
Because the crucible is yet another piece of technology we build, but do not understand. Again, we are following a path that was placed before us by others. Most likely the Reapers. Using it, will lead to our doom. That is why it needs to be destroyed.

. But not all reaper tech indoctrinates. The citadel and relays do not indoctrinate, but reaper artifacts such as object Rho, random side missions about reaper artifacts, and the reapers themselves all indoctrinate

[Steelcan]

Ok just looking at the last few posts I'd like to throw this out there.

Not all reaper technology indoctrinates. Citadel and relays being the most obvious examples. On the other hand most reaper tech does indoctrinate, even the reapers themselves indoctrinate. This isn't a matter of either they all indoctrinate or they don't. Technology the reapers create ie, the relays are not inherently evil. However the reapers themselves are. This isn't a conscious decision on their part, it's just part if them. Reapers indoctrinate, no two ways about it.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Steelcan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's why I think those who think along those lines should choose an ending where all Reaper tech is completely and irrevocably destroyed. Including the mass relays and the Citadel. You can't say "Reaper tech indoctrinates" on one hand and then exclude the parts whose destruction would be inconvenient.

I agree. Legion said we should achieve our own future, and reject the Reapers' gifts and the paths they set out for us to follow. I think that is why you blow up the crucible in destroy, and why the relays were destroyed in the original endings.
Because the crucible is yet another piece of technology we build, but do not understand. Again, we are following a path that was placed before us by others. Most likely the Reapers. Using it, will lead to our doom. That is why it needs to be destroyed.

. But not all reaper tech indoctrinates. The citadel and relays do not indoctrinate, but reaper artifacts such as object Rho, random side missions about reaper artifacts, and the reapers themselves all indoctrinate

Again, like I posted above, there are several moments in the game that allude to the Citadel having some kind of pacifying effect that makes people forget about the war or not believe in the Reapers.

This moment, for one.

[Ieldra]

@Steelcan:
Of course I don't believe that. But there are people who appear to think that Reaper tech is somehow inherently evil. All I'm saying is that there is only one fitting ending for them: low-EMS Destroy, where the relays and the Citadel all end up irrevocably destroyed.

As for rejecting technology in order to "build our own future" - technology exchange has been a part of human interaction since the stone age. It is important that we understand the technology we're using, but rejecting it just because we didn't develop it ourselves is silly. I'd rather make an extra effort to understand relay tech rather than throw the child out with the bathwater and destroy them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2012 - 05:09 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for rejecting technology in order to "build our own future" - technology exchange has been a part of human interaction since the stone age. It is important that we understand the technology we're using, but rejecting it just because we didn't develop it ourselves is silly. I'd rather make an extra effort to understand relay tech rather than throw the child out with the bathwater and destroy them.

I completely agree with this. By the way, how do you interpret Legion's statements in ME2? Many people use Legion to justify their argument that all Reaper tech should be rejected. And then there's Legion's ME3 contradictions...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 29 octobre 2012 - 05:15 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

FOX216BC wrote...

 Destroy is way more attractive if you ask me.

Okay, well I'm sold.

Destroy FTW!

[Steelcan]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...


Again, like I posted above, there are several moments in the game that allude to the Citadel having some kind of pacifying effect that makes people forget about the war or not believe in the Reapers.

This moment, for one.

. I think that has more to do with the Citadel's isolation and protection rather than anything sinister

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Steelcan:
Of course I don't believe that. But there are people who appear to think that Reaper tech is somehow inherently evil. All I'm saying is that there is only one fitting ending for them: low-EMS Destroy, where the relays and the Citadel all end up irrevocably destroyed.

As for rejecting technology in order to "build our own future" - technology exchange has been a part of human interaction since the stone age. It is important that we understand the technology we're using, but rejecting it just because we didn't develop it ourselves is silly. I'd rather make an extra effort to understand relay tech rather than throw the child out with the bathwater and destroy them.

. I don't reject reaper technology. I reject the reapers' purpose and goals.  I reject their reasoning and logic.  I don't think they are necessary for peace between synthetics and organics.  I see the reapers as a limit to how far organics, and synthetics, can grow.  Eliminate them to open up the galaxy for our own exploration and use.  I encourage the use and adaptation of technology.  The reapers need to be studied and examined.  I just think that the best way for this to occur is if the reapers are no longer functioning.  We can build or own future but I'm not going to ignore anything that might make it easier.  I don't pick destroy out of some sense of righteousness or justice or personal vendetta, I just think it is the best choice for the galaxy, I understand why people would like control or synthesis, but to me this seems like accepting the catalyst's logic, I just can't do that

[Arokel]

My opinion on Synthesis has not changed since I first saw it. It is creepy and wrong.

[DoomsdayDevice]

I love it. It's beautiful in a creepy kind of way.

Five minutes chatting with the Reaper overlord, and tons of Shepards are happily throwing themselves into the Reaper beam.



Oh, how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Indoctrinated beyond redemption, and they don't even have a clue. Now that, is art. Bioware did an amazing job.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for rejecting technology in order to "build our own future" - technology exchange has been a part of human interaction since the stone age. It is important that we understand the technology we're using, but rejecting it just because we didn't develop it ourselves is silly. I'd rather make an extra effort to understand relay tech rather than throw the child out with the bathwater and destroy them.

I completely agree with this. By the way, how do you interpret Legion's statements in ME2? Many people use Legion to justify their argument that all Reaper tech should be rejected. And then there's Legion's ME3 contradictions...

He got it half-right. Technology can be a trap, but its source doesn't matter. Imagine the same technology, in one scenario being "imported" from someone else and in the other developed on your own. Let a thorough understanding exist in both scenarios. You can expect the effects on society to be exactly the same. Once I adopt a technology, I am prone to its effects. Regardless of where it comes from.

Also, Legion upgraded the geth with Reaper code in ME3, implicitly admitting that the source doesn't matter, only the effects.

In other words, the whole argument "technology developed by someone else is worse than technology developed on our own" is complete nonsense. It's a rationalization to pander to the mindset "everything Reaper is intrinsically evil".

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, Legion upgraded the geth with Reaper code in ME3, implicitly admitting that the source doesn't matter, only the effects.

Do you think this was a "character development" for Legion? Or inconsistent writing?

[jtav]

I think it was inconsistency, because the previous mindset is never addressed.

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, Legion upgraded the geth with Reaper code in ME3, implicitly admitting that the source doesn't matter, only the effects.

Do you think this was a "character development" for Legion? Or inconsistent writing?

. I think it was Legion wanting what he thought was best for his people.  Worked out well for him in the end didnt it....

[rekn2]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Steelcan:
Of course I don't believe that. But there are people who appear to think that Reaper tech is somehow inherently evil. All I'm saying is that there is only one fitting ending for them: low-EMS Destroy, where the relays and the Citadel all end up irrevocably destroyed.

As for rejecting technology in order to "build our own future" - technology exchange has been a part of human interaction since the stone age. It is important that we understand the technology we're using, but rejecting it just because we didn't develop it ourselves is silly. I'd rather make an extra effort to understand relay tech rather than throw the child out with the bathwater and destroy them.

i completely disagree with this. when you build something yourself you get a basic understanding of what it does and what it can do. ill use einstein and the atomic bomb as an example. he shouldve never gave normals that technology. it irreversably changed humanity forever and not in a good way. does anyone esle remember hiding under your desk in school for drills etc? i do. einstein even wrote about it before it was created, he knew he Fed up before he even gave them the info.

also, giving out technology can have a culture destroying impact as well. hawaiians and native americans as another example. the 9 to 5 world yall created isnt better than what was before, its just different...not to mention fake and blinding. i remember the riots and stuff from hurricane katrina when there was no food at the grocery store. your paper money has no real value and the majority of humanity worships it. when that system falls apart billions will suffer. no ty.

[The Night Mammoth]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's why I think those who think along those lines should choose an ending where all Reaper tech is completely and irrevocably destroyed. Including the mass relays and the Citadel. You can't say "Reaper tech indoctrinates" on one hand and then exclude the parts whose destruction would be inconvenient.

I agree. Legion said we should achieve our own future, and reject the Reapers' gifts and the paths they set out for us to follow. I think that is why you blow up the crucible in destroy, and why the relays were destroyed in the original endings.
Because the crucible is yet another piece of technology we build, but do not understand. Again, we are following a path that was placed before us by others. Most likely the Reapers. Using it, will lead to our doom. That is why it needs to be destroyed.

. But not all reaper tech indoctrinates. The citadel and relays do not indoctrinate, but reaper artifacts such as object Rho, random side missions about reaper artifacts, and the reapers themselves all indoctrinate

Again, like I posted above, there are several moments in the game that allude to the Citadel having some kind of pacifying effect that makes people forget about the war or not believe in the Reapers.

This moment, for one.

Wait, where's the connection between a peaceful Citadel and some sort of malevolent influence pacifying people? It's far more logical to assume it's peaceful on the Citadel because there's no war there when you talk to James. The attack started only a few hours before, and James is specifically talking about the Presidium. Occam's Razor.

I'd also like to know the other moments you're talking about. 

[Mobius-Silent]

Apologies for the thread necromancy but this thread was linked to from an active thread. While I agree with a lot of the things that Ieldra2 says I'm not pro-synthisis, I dislike all the endings, _but_ I don't think synthesis is any worse. That said:

Ieldra2 wrote...
What came to me first when hearing this again is the insight that the Reapers are physically synthetic, not bio-synthetic (EDI's speculation at the Collector Base was wrong).The processing of organics isn't used to build the structure, but to re-encode their idenities into a new form. All that is left is information, and the genetic material is only used to extract information about the physical forms. Could they have done that without destroying the host? Of course they could have, but as we all now know, the purpose was as much to destroy the old form as to create the new one.

This is not accurate IMHO, Sovereign breaks up in ME1 and you can clearly see that the "immortal machine body" is _also_ filled with techno-organic brain-like material.

A Reaper's consciousness is created from a lot of components:

• A unifying synthetic intelligence based on the original synthetics that were made for the Catalyst to assist in its task of investigating the organic-synthetic conflict
• The digital mind-state of every living sentient dissolved by the processing ships
• Every digital record extracted from that race's technology
• Every element of genetic information contained in every living or dead organic consumed by the processing ships.

Harbinger says "If you resist there will be a cost" the cost is that _less_ of the race makes it to the "ascended state" the resultant Reaper is more based on raw generic information and less based on mind-states. The genetic information is useful (More so in the ME universe than IRL as the Prothean "reading" abilities can attest to) but the mind-states are the definitive test of “storage”
Think about it: many of the people here complain that what the Reapers do can’t _possibly_ be considered “storing” or “preserving” but let’s look at that the Reapers “keep”

• The Mind-state of the individual members of the race
• All unique living organic material associated with those individuals

The resultant Reaper contains living [techno-]organic material and it’s thoughts are an amalgam of the overarching synthetic and the recorded organic minds. This is a text-book example of a literal interpretation of a complicated messy set of directives that include such impossible to define terms as “dead” and “alive” (Impossible without "feelings" and thus sentience vs simple self-aware sapience)

In the synthesis slides it shows a seemingly sentient "Keiji-holo" that was most likely created or emergent from the mind-state stored in his greybox if this is the case then it stands to reason that it would be possible to re-instantiate the races stored in a Reaper. That said, it may not be _moral_ to force that on them, while they were created by a truly horrific act, they are now a single being that _would_ be destroyed if split up and once freed from the directive's of the cycle and the direct control of the Catalyst we have very little knowledge of what that intelegence would be like.

N.B. all this assumes that mind-state is a quantum effect and cannot be copied only destructively-read (with the Geth being a more complex and possibly unique situation but that is a seperate question) but this is well supported in Mass Effect with the Codex entries on AI, Virtual aliens and EDI's comments about the Collector processing in ME2

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mars 2013 - 12:21 .

[Auld Wulf]

Ieldra2 wrote...

*sigh* I'm getting *so* sick of you pro-Destroy fundamentalists.

I can empathise. Their position is so forceful, and so fuelled by anger and bitterness that it's hard to want to do anything other than diametrically oppose them.

I've seen it all. Non-Destroyers are apparently both insane and idiotic for wanting to preserve life and end war with the least amount of casualties. That seems perfectly in-character for my ethical, philosophical, and empathetic Shepard. But all I hear is that wanting to preserve life is dumb. Sometimes it makes me feel as though I've slipped through the cracks of reality into Bizarro World.

Furthermore, I've always believed that medical science and curing people is good. And Joker is cured of brittle bone disease as the ending shows (his posture is very different, he looks healthy). Yet Destroyers tell me that wanting to cure Joker is dumb as it would somehow make him unhappy, Really? He seems happy enough, and as someone with an illness to be dealt with on a day-to-day basis, I feel for him. But no, Destroyers tell me that my ability to cate makes me dumb or insane.

It's really hard to not want to oppose that for what I hope are obvious reasons.

At this point, I'm thinking... Hey, maybe they've all been indoctrinated. Sure would explain a lot. Usually mind control results in wanting to defend the delusion. For all I know their Shepards might be in comas, and the Catalyst went on with the cycle anyway, realising organics in the Destroyverse just aren't ready.

Maybe all we see in Destroy happens within the Reaper consensus.

Yes. That was a joke. But in fairness, Control and Synthesis fans have been putting up with such nonsense since the beginning.

"To walk a mile in another's shoes."

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 15 mars 2013 - 01:06 .