196 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@Mobius-Silent:
Doesn't look like organic material to me in that picture.

Anyway, while I agree about the first three components used to create a Reaper mind, what's important about the "genetic material" is the information stored on it, and you can encode that any way you want. After all, it's nothing more than instructions about which proteins to build. You don't need the actual DNA, and you only need one copy of it, i.e. one stem cell, to read all the information. Also, to use the other organic substance in any meaningful way, it would need to be intact, and it isn't. There is no advantage in keeping all that stuff, and a single Reaper wouldn't be able to store the physical substance of ten billion humans anyway. So I assume the Reaper keeps the information about the physical form and stores it, including the complete genetic code of each individual, but not the actual physical substance.

Yes, in conjunction with the Keiji-hologram this suggests that it's theoretically possible to re-instantiate individuals from the harvested species, and I also agree the ethical status of such an action is unclear. As for the mind-states of organics being quantum effects, at some level this must be true, but we have no information about whether or not quantum effects are significant enough to make a copy "not the same" in a nontrivial way. What we know is compatible with that hypothesis, but I rather doubt it. It's equally possible that nobody has the technology for a non-destructive uploading, or that the Reapers didn't bother with it because they need to destroy the old form anyway.

[eye basher]

Glow boy tried to hard to sell me synthesis sounded like a croc to me i just shot the pipe.

[Mobius-Silent]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Anyway, while I agree about the first three components used to create a Reaper mind, what's important about the "genetic material" is the information stored on it, and you can encode that any way you want. After all, it's nothing more than instructions about which proteins to build. You don't need the actual DNA, and you only need one copy of it, i.e. one stem cell, to read all the information.

IRL you are correct, in Mass Effect you are not, genetic material retains an ineffable something that Protheans can read far beyond the information we currently understand to be contained. Regardless, The material rendered from people _is_ kept and it is used to make a Reaper, this is illustrated in ME2 and the ME3 codex

PROCESSORS, also called "slaughter ships," are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting. Like troop transports, processors appear to be remotely operated by sapient Reapers.

The most time-consuming part of the process is gathering DNA from the population

The processor ships reduce victims to a transportable liquid

This liquid _is_ used in Reaper production, we see it in ME2, we follow the actual tubes to get to the larva. As far as you not thinking that the internals of my render looks organic I'll post the actual texture when I get home, it's literally based on brain matter (I have all of ME1/2/3DLC models/textures unarchived on my home file server)

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mars 2013 - 04:23 .

[Fenrir__]

Well I just finished the game and decided to check out the synthesis ending and then actually went back and decided upon destroy. Now I have no problem with Synthesis if this is the last story to ever be told in the Mass Effect universe and everyone is going to live happily ever after then fine it's a valid ending to the Mass Effect trilogy and the series. It very much reminds me of how the Dune series ends after the last two book were written based on the notes from Frank Herbert.

The problem I have with Synthesis and Control as valid endings is that they are storytelling dead ends, with either of them Mass Effect 3 is the last story that should be told in the Mass Effect Universe. Synthesis is a fantastic concept and was well illustrated I just don't see how the story can continue on past that point, attempting to write conceptualize and visualize what having the reapers aiding Galactic Civilization with millions of years of acquired technology and fusing Organics and Synthetics is a nigh impossible task and one that most Science Fiction writers shy away from as they end their stories with some form of Synthesis and talk about it's beginnings but the plot ends there.

Control is just a difficult as you can either have Shepard passing out Millions of year old tech like Candy or being galactic cop with" unbeatable" Machines at his control.

Synthesis is a great concept and one that is probably IMO the best ending for Mass Effect 3 if you United the Entire Galaxy but it's only that if we never go back to this Universe and these Characters. Which leaves us only about 30 years or so worth of stories to tell as prequels which when it all ends in Synthesis or Control for example just feels kind of hollow to me...

[Mobius-Silent]

Fenrir__ wrote...
The problem I have with Synthesis and Control as valid endings is that they are storytelling dead ends, with either of them Mass Effect 3 is the last story that should be told in the Mass Effect Universe. 

Absolutely agree... buuuut

Fenrir__ wrote...
most Science Fiction writers shy away from as they end their stories with some form of Synthesis and talk about it's beginnings but the plot ends there.

Ian M Banks, the Culture series in a good example of a post-singularity-yet-still-comprehensible setting. Also I don't think Synthesis really is all that Utopian, IMHO:

• I believe that "understanding" is just the machined-get-emotions aspect, not inherrent, automatic local mind-networking.
• I believe that the "New framework" gives organics _nothing_ by default, it is simply a _basis_ for integrated technology, much like biotic need to be trained and augumented to be useful.
• I believe the Reapers would leave and be isolationist after assisting in the rebuild out of guilt
• While the Reapers would retail the "wisdom of the ages" I believe they wouldn't share it, some would destroy themselves with guilt and some may manually dissasociate back into their component intellects.

All making for interesting story potential

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 15 mars 2013 - 04:32 .

[Mobius-Silent]

 If I were making ME4 I would have the following setting:
ME3+200 years

• Most main Relays have been repaired, others are being repaired and opened for the first time
• The Reapers have gone (Controlshep left with them, Synth-Reapers left of their own accord, Or destroyed)
• Synthesis happened, (Either after ME3 the crucible tech was rebuilt, or the tech extracted)
• Tech integration isn't a big deal, though people (Asari, Krogan) can remember when that wasn't the case.
• Plenty of people do nothing with their tech other than check the extranet (Green glow is gone)
• The Geth had _hard_ backups (Atomic ingraving of bit-patterns on diamond, lets see a blast-wave work that out)
• The Genophage was cured, (somehow) Krogan are improving

That way we get the best of all worlds and simple dialogue changes cover all options.

[Sideria]

Or it can be a "natural" (with a tech invented by the current race, with a progressive integration) synthesis for destroy and control. After a long path (longer and bloodier for destroy).
The tech can come from the Salarian, Edi says that they universally embrace the transhumanism.
Like that it's not something "forced" (otherwise there would be a lot of complaint from destroyer ).
So ME3 + 1000 years for me.

I like this type of settings for ME4.

Modifié par Sideria, 15 mars 2013 - 05:44 .

[Ieldra]

Mobius-Silent wrote...
Ian M Banks, the Culture series in a good example of a post-singularity-yet-still-comprehensible setting. Also I don't think Synthesis really is all that Utopian, IMHO:

• I believe that "understanding" is just the machined-get-emotions aspect, not inherrent, automatic local mind-networking.
• I believe that the "New framework" gives organics _nothing_ by default, it is simply a _basis_ for integrated technology, much like biotic need to be trained and augumented to be useful.
• I believe the Reapers would leave and be isolationist after assisting in the rebuild out of guilt
• While the Reapers would retail the "wisdom of the ages" I believe they wouldn't share it, some would destroy themselves with guilt and some may manually dissasociate back into their component intellects.

All making for interesting story potential

While I don't agree with the "guilt" part (I don't believe in projecting human notions of social interaction on the Reapers), I do believe that the Reapers would retreat, because they're just too different and will have different priorities, and I agree that it's not all that utopian. I also think that the post-Synthesis future is not at all a storytelling dead end but one of the most fascinating settings I could imagine. It does, however, take a skill in SF worldbuilding to bring it to life I don't think anyone at Bioware has.

@Sideria:
A different civilization on its way to transapience wouldn't be as interesting as one with the Reapers still present, but I'd take it. This kind of setting appears rarely in SF, and I'd like to see it.

Edit:
For anyone who happens to read the OP: note that the OP was written before the EC came out. Some things I speculated about are more obvious post-EC.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 mars 2013 - 06:12 .

[Fenrir__]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Fenrir__ wrote...
The problem I have with Synthesis and Control as valid endings is that they are storytelling dead ends, with either of them Mass Effect 3 is the last story that should be told in the Mass Effect Universe. 

Absolutely agree... buuuut

Fenrir__ wrote...
most Science Fiction writers shy away from as they end their stories with some form of Synthesis and talk about it's beginnings but the plot ends there.

Ian M Banks, the Culture series in a good example of a post-singularity-yet-still-comprehensible setting. Also I don't think Synthesis really is all that Utopian, IMHO:

• I believe that "understanding" is just the machined-get-emotions aspect, not inherrent, automatic local mind-networking.
• I believe that the "New framework" gives organics _nothing_ by default, it is simply a _basis_ for integrated technology, much like biotic need to be trained and augumented to be useful.
• I believe the Reapers would leave and be isolationist after assisting in the rebuild out of guilt
• While the Reapers would retail the "wisdom of the ages" I believe they wouldn't share it, some would destroy themselves with guilt and some may manually dissasociate back into their component intellects.

All making for interesting story potential

[*]I like the points that you made I will have to look up the Ian M Banks series. From what I see online about it, The culture is a symbiotic society unlike the one presenseted in the Synthesis Ending of Mass Effect where Organics and Synthetics are one and the same. The books also start with a created society not having to explain how one came to be which would be a daunting task after ME3 synthesis ending
[*]There are definitly some great storytelling options I just don't see how the story can propel forward when I don't think the writers themselves understand what exactly occured. How has becoming part synthetic affected civilizations, reproduction, interspecies reproduction. Are we all interconnected? Can Anyone be hacked and if that's the case what's the difference between the virtual and the simulated?[*]I just don't see how you can created any interested scenario and explain what occured in Synthesis to give it the deep understanding and meaning that the choice should have and then present an interesting story. That's a lot of burden to bear one that most writers avoid while either ending at Synthesis or tackling the question on a non galactic scale but a smaller more personal one which seems to be far more manageable. Or there is the third option and the society has already undergone synthesis and it does not seem to be at an interspecies level it is one society and therefore much easier to attemtp to explain how they arrived at such a point or simply don't address and you deal with the being as they are.

[Wayning_Star]

there they are all worried about changing the MEU, but, hell bent for election assembling a super weapon of mass who knows that's sure to alter the time space in cosmic proportion. Its OK to synth a universe if it suits the need, but not to IF you know about it.

the MEU is already synthesized..the catalyst knows it..why doesn't Shepard?

[Ieldra]

Fenrir__ wrote...
There are definitly some great storytelling options I just don't see how the story can propel forward when I don't think the writers themselves understand what exactly occured. How has becoming part synthetic affected civilizations, reproduction, interspecies reproduction. Are we all interconnected? Can Anyone be hacked and if that's the case what's the difference between the virtual and the simulated?

There is no reason why reproduction should be affected. As for the other things, that's what a worldbuilder would have to deal with, carefully thinking about the consequences of each element added to the setting. I'd say mental networking exists but it's switchable. Anything more would make the society too alien to connect with. Also I'd posit Synthesis provides the base for tech integration, but no tech except that mental networking is integrated by default. Hacking might be possible or not, though it's probably better to limit the possibilities there.

I just don't see how you can create any interested scenario and explain what occured in Synthesis to give it the deep understanding and meaning that the choice should have and then present an interesting story. That's a lot of burden to bear one that most writers avoid while either ending at Synthesis or tackling the question on a non galactic scale but a smaller more personal one which seems to be far more manageable. Or there is the third option and the society has already undergone synthesis and it does not seem to be at an interspecies level it is one society and therefore much easier to attemtp to explain how they arrived at such a point or simply don't address and you deal with the being as they are.

I agree that it's possibly a matter not really suited to a game. A post-Synthesis civilization would have a lot of "cool stuff" which could be presented, but that would hardly be the most interesting aspect. On the other hand, the ME trilogy already has a lot of interesting themes, even though most of them are side issues, so....I don't know. The biggest problem is that it's not a setting you can intuitively connect to. You need to actively adapt to it. Space opera tends to ignore any changes to social interaction caused by technology, that's why it's easy to connect to. That wouldn't be feasible for a post-Synthesis universe, because change in social interaction is what will define it more than anything else.

In the end, I think Bioware could pull it off, but they'd really need to stay away from many conventional tropes. It would be very different from ME as we know it.

[Fenrir__]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Fenrir__ wrote...
There are definitly some great storytelling options I just don't see how the story can propel forward when I don't think the writers themselves understand what exactly occured. How has becoming part synthetic affected civilizations, reproduction, interspecies reproduction. Are we all interconnected? Can Anyone be hacked and if that's the case what's the difference between the virtual and the simulated?

There is no reason why reproduction should be affected. As for the other things, that's what a worldbuilder would have to deal with, carefully thinking about the consequences of each element added to the setting. I'd say mental networking exists but it's switchable. Anything more would make the society too alien to connect with. Also I'd posit Synthesis provides the base for tech integration, but no tech except that mental networking is integrated by default. Hacking might be possible or not, though it's probably better to limit the possibilities there.

I just don't see how you can create any interested scenario and explain what occured in Synthesis to give it the deep understanding and meaning that the choice should have and then present an interesting story. That's a lot of burden to bear one that most writers avoid while either ending at Synthesis or tackling the question on a non galactic scale but a smaller more personal one which seems to be far more manageable. Or there is the third option and the society has already undergone synthesis and it does not seem to be at an interspecies level it is one society and therefore much easier to attemtp to explain how they arrived at such a point or simply don't address and you deal with the being as they are.

I agree that it's possibly a matter not really suited to a game. A post-Synthesis civilization would have a lot of "cool stuff" which could be presented, but that would hardly be the most interesting aspect. On the other hand, the ME trilogy already has a lot of interesting themes, even though most of them are side issues, so....I don't know. The biggest problem is that it's not a setting you can intuitively connect to. You need to actively adapt to it. Space opera tends to ignore any changes to social interaction caused by technology, that's why it's easy to connect to. That wouldn't be feasible for a post-Synthesis universe, because change in social interaction is what will define it more than anything else.

In the end, I think Bioware could pull it off, but they'd really need to stay away from many conventional tropes. It would be very different from ME as we know it.

I would love to see them pull it off. I just don't see the possibility of doing it in Satisfactory Manner or at least one that would lead to a very engaging video game or trilogy of games.

I am positive that the plan right now conserning ME moving forward will be create the Mass Effect Movies, which are in pre production if they sell well. Complete making the Mass Effect trilogy into a movie. 

Make other Mass Effect stories in the meantime staying away from sequels.

Rerelease the Mass Effect Trilogy on current gen systems and PC after the completion of the trilogy of movies. The games will be updated in some way. Most likely with a Mass Effect 3 ending modified in some shape or form to allow for a sequel or an ending that is more similar to the one that will become Cannon in movie form. Maybe even have a more playable and continuable version of all 3.

Mass Effect 4 with Shepard in it as he is the face of the franchise thanks to the movies. What sort of a role will he/she play not sure but will be there somehow because EA wants to cash in and make money.

Modifié par Fenrir__, 15 mars 2013 - 07:23 .

[Wayning_Star]

It's all just about dependency, the interaction among social orders would be automatic after synthesis, if the theory holds that evolution it's self is altered through manipulation of nature. It would be as if it was already part of the base system, no different than any other thing accepted as natural in the MEU.

Think of just 'how' technology alters your frames of reference in real time. Now, assume that it's always been that way for as far back as history(even that would be altered of course, but who's say'n is recorded. The questions out strip the answers, even in fiction. So we'd have to assume that "Ascension starts NOW"... or would that be synthesis? Apparently evolution eventually will depend on the tools we make, and how we use them, as well as how they don't use us.

stupid evolution...

[Fenrir__]

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's all just about dependency, the interaction among social orders would be automatic after synthesis, if the theory holds that evolution it's self is altered through manipulation of nature. It would be as if it was already part of the base system, no different than any other thing accepted as natural in the MEU.

Think of just 'how' technology alters your frames of reference in real time. Now, assume that it's always been that way for as far back as history(even that would be altered of course, but who's say'n is recorded. The questions out strip the answers, even in fiction. So we'd have to assume that "Ascension starts NOW"... or would that be synthesis? Apparently evolution eventually will depend on the tools we make, and how we use them, as well as how they don't use us.

stupid evolution...

I don't think the questions necessarily outstrip the answers. I think it's more that the questions can't lead to any possible sort of satisfactory answer and maye leave players saying I sacrificed myself for this, Turn game off and find some way to get a refund no matter what the cost.

If they can answer all of the questions I would be summarily impressed. I more expect them to just insert Deux Ex Machina hear and that's the reason for this type answers if they try.

[Eterna]

This makes me sad Ieldra, you tried so hard back then and people just crapped on your ideas.

[Fenrir__]

I actually like Ieldra's ideas and I think she presents them very well. If ME3 is the end of the MEU, Then I think she is dead on.

[Skullheart]

I still don't like the idea of creepy glowing eyes, or the technological crucigram on the skin.

Oh, and using space magic to rape the genetic code of all organic life in the galaxy. I don't want to be able to understand my salad when I'm eating.

Modifié par Skullheart, 15 mars 2013 - 07:45 .

[Texhnolyze101]

There is nothing attractive about synthesis not a single thing.

[BD Manchild]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

There is nothing attractive about synthesis not a single thing.

There's nothing attractive about any of the endings, if you ask me.

Also, what's with this trend of gravedigging threads that are almost a year old? Are people really that stumped and bored around here?

[Wayning_Star]

Fenrir__ wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's all just about dependency, the interaction among social orders would be automatic after synthesis, if the theory holds that evolution it's self is altered through manipulation of nature. It would be as if it was already part of the base system, no different than any other thing accepted as natural in the MEU.

Think of just 'how' technology alters your frames of reference in real time. Now, assume that it's always been that way for as far back as history(even that would be altered of course, but who's say'n is recorded. The questions out strip the answers, even in fiction. So we'd have to assume that "Ascension starts NOW"... or would that be synthesis? Apparently evolution eventually will depend on the tools we make, and how we use them, as well as how they don't use us.

stupid evolution...

I don't think the questions necessarily outstrip the answers. I think it's more that the questions can't lead to any possible sort of satisfactory answer and maye leave players saying I sacrificed myself for this, Turn game off and find some way to get a refund no matter what the cost.

If they can answer all of the questions I would be summarily impressed. I more expect them to just insert Deux Ex Machina hear and that's the reason for this type answers if they try.

as in many books, even good ones, the story seems out of place, when ventured to guess what a future might hold. Now we advance that billions of years, hard to imagine that reality, if any..lol

[Wayning_Star]

BD Manchild wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

There is nothing attractive about synthesis not a single thing.

There's nothing attractive about any of the endings, if you ask me.

Also, what's with this trend of gravedigging threads that are almost a year old? Are people really that stumped and bored around here?

what endings?

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

actually, I find it interesting that fans try as they might to resolve the issues of ascension, or if that is the case in the MEU, or anywhere for that matter, evolution and what that is for any given being, synthetic or otherwise.

[Auld Wulf]

Eterna5 wrote...

This makes me sad Ieldra, you tried so hard back then and people just crapped on your ideas.

See: Every wildly creative person or visionary throughout history.

It's a sad thing, but it seems to be human nature to attack the people with the most out there, imaginative ideas when contrasted against the status quo. It's upsetting, but it's hardly surprising. Still, I feel for Ieldra, too.

[Wayning_Star]

Skullheart wrote...

I still don't like the idea of creepy glowing eyes, or the technological crucigram on the skin.

Oh, and using space magic to rape the genetic code of all organic life in the galaxy. I don't want to be able to understand my salad when I'm eating.

actually, nature and evolution 'rapes' the genetic code, not Shepard, no matter what choices made. To say otherwise is to refuse that technology is needed to advance through evolution, or evolution isn't a factor or plainly doesn't exist in reality. Stuff just happens.

If you understood your salad, you'd probably want more or not ever eat again. Hard choices are part of life I suppose..lol

[Mobius-Silent]

BD Manchild wrote...
Also, what's with this trend of gravedigging threads that are almost a year old? Are people really that stumped and bored around here?

That was my fault, as I said this thread was linked to from an active thread and I though I had something to contribute to the subject, speaking of which:

The ME1 texture for the inside of Sovereign:



They are definitely going for "organic goop" there, part brain, part mince

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

This makes me sad Ieldra, you tried so hard back then and people just crapped on your ideas.

See: Every wildly creative person or visionary throughout history.

It's a sad thing, but it seems to be human nature to attack the people with the most out there, imaginative ideas when contrasted against the status quo. It's upsetting, but it's hardly surprising. Still, I feel for Ieldra, too.

but in the making Ieldra statistically correct IS to create a status to "quo". All hail Ieldra2!!

(she/he's got my vote, just on effort alone and dedication to a cause!