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On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is such an attractive choice


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#176
Wayning_Star

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Mobius-Silent wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...
Also, what's with this trend of gravedigging threads that are almost a year old? Are people really that stumped and bored around here?


That was my fault, as I said this thread was linked to from an active thread and I though I had something to contribute to the subject, speaking of which:

The ME1 texture for the inside of Sovereign:

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They are definitely going for "organic goop" there, part brain, part mince


s'funny, but that idea right there pushed me to headcanon that the catalyst was probably made up from organic materials, the Levi made an organic computer..

but I found an article online about a bunch of scientist over in Europe actually developing a human brain out of computer programs to diagnose brain illnesses and other stuff.. synthesis is here already in theory?

#177
Ieldra

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@Mobius-Silent:
It appears you're right about the organic parts, but I'm not willing to suspend my disbelief about genetic material "retaining an ineffable something". It's all chemistry, and if the writers want me to believe the fundamentals of human biochemistry function differently in the MEU, then they'll have to explain it in detail, explicitly and with suitable rationalization in terms of the MEU's science. These vague hints of "life has something ineffable" are too much like religion.

@Eterna5:
Guess who was smiling when the EC came out ;) Of course, then the ITists tried to ruin everything, and I feared that Bioware would pander to them. Well, thankfully that's a thing of the past.

@all:
As for necroing the thread, I wasn't responsible, but I believe this topic is of ongoing interest and I hope it won't be closed.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 mars 2013 - 07:56 .


#178
Ieldra

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I'm bringing this thread up because it contains my answer to the question: "Why don't you hold the Reapers responsible for the cycle" which was asked in a more recent thread, but apparently links aren't followed here on BSN.

To sum up the OP about this:

(1) If a Reapers is "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within an immortal machine body" (Legion in ME2), then Reapers retain significant traits of their constituent species.

(2) Given that, it is implausible that all of them, without a single dropout, would perpetuate the cycle doing to other species what was done to their own constituents.

(3) Thus, I conclude that Reapers are mind-controlled by the Catalyst.

(4) True mind-control is subversion of the will and works in a way that you're unaware of it. You aren't just "not allowed to act or think differently", you simpy will not think or act differently. Your actions will appear as natural to you as if you were not mind-controlled.

(5) This kind of mind-control allows Reapers to retain a personality that could be seen as an collective avatar of their species, while retaining a single "truth" in their mind ("The cycle is necessary. You are what you were always meant to be.") that makes them support the cycle. it means that "The Reapers are mind-controlled" and "The Reapers have their own personality" are not mutually exclusive states of being.

See the OP for more details.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 mai 2013 - 09:04 .


#179
Auld Wulf

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I really wish more people understood that. That kind of mind control has been used in some of the best cyberpunk, transhumanist, and futurist stories I've read. Since when you can affect the mind, you can just stop it from thinking in ways that aren't beneficial to the controller. What I see happening in ME3 is that the Reapers are freed, but the Catalyst also returns them to how they were at creation, telling them that they had been mind controlled.

Knowing the horrors that they had bestowed upon the galaxy, their collective choice (even if there were a few nay-sayers, this must have been a mostly positive consensus) was to offer reparations by helping the species of the galaxy to repair their home worlds. Furthermore, the Reapers freely offered their knowledge to all, without any restrictions. They gave of themselves freely, and that (to me) speaks of their strength of character.

But the problem with gamers is that they love hate fetishes. That's what it's about, on a meta level. See, you have Player 1 (the good guy), and you have the Evil Menace whom Player 1 is chosen to destroy. This has been gaming since the dawn of time, other than certain genres and indie/small developer exemptions. What we have here is a cross-section of the gaming mainstream that believe in black & white, absolute terms.

Player 1 is Good. The Reapers are evil.

Player 1 is Good. The Geth sided with the Reapers. The Geth are therefore evil.

Their thinking is no more nuanced than that. They have simplistic, one-dimensional thinking compared to my own, and they lack my wisdom and understanding. I'm a good storyteller because I have a great amount of three dimensionality to my person, so I'm able to tell a nuanced story, I'm also able to say things like 'hey, the Quarians and the Geth are neither both absolutely good or absolutely evil.'

The kind of binary thinking they represent, the kind of binary thinking that will doom us all in the end, is the kind of binary thinking that stops them from thinking in nuanced, three dimensional ways. They can't understand that the Reapers can change their status, they can't understand that the Geth might have reasons for what they do. This is beyond their limited, black & white, 1 and 0 world view. Because 1 is always 1, and 0 is always 0.

It's this kind of mindset, for example, that believes that rehabilitation is pointless, and all criminals should be mercilessly slaughtered, no matter how minor the crime. It's the sort of thinking I tend to see on the extreme right, where everything is black & white, and good must eradicate evil. Sort of like a really bad Saturday morning cartoon, you know? And I don't think we're ever going to get through to them, they need to mature more before they can understand nuance.

So I understand why they're the way they are. I'm just surprised that BioWare's forums turned out to be such an anti-intellectual ghetto considering the ending. You'd think it would have pulled in more three dimensional people. It has been better of late than it was some time ago, but the numbers of one dimensional, binary thinking people who deal in absolutes is staggering.

I understand them, I understand why they're the way they are. I just also wish they understood more. It's depressing to see people think in such obviously limited ways.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 mai 2013 - 12:52 .


#180
KaiserShep

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I take it that its not possible for you to support your point without fellating your ego. No one takes a person seriously when they pepper their points with insults, inane bragging and hyperbole.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 mai 2013 - 01:05 .


#181
dreamgazer

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If you're going to engage in attacking and insulting gamers on the basis of binary thinking, Wulfie, it's best not to do so in a long-winded, faux-intellectual rant that's guilty of the same things through intentional misrepresentations. Your input on perspective goes straight out the window when you do so, and it reeks of not having a proper nuanced understanding yourself.

#182
Saito404

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If Synthesis is attractive to you, well... Happy threesome with Banshee and Cannibal then.

#183
spirosz

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dreamgazer wrote...

If you're going to engage in attacking and insulting gamers on the basis of binary thinking, Wulfie, it's best not to do so in a long-winded, faux-intellectual rant that's guilty of the same things through intentional misrepresentations. Your input on perspective goes straight out the window when you do so, and it reeks of not having a proper nuanced understanding yourself.



#184
GreyLycanTrope

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Auld Wulf wrote...
Player 1 is Good. The Reapers are evil.

Player 1 is Good. The Geth sided with the Reapers. The Geth are therefore evil.

<---- Player 1 wants the Reapers dead and the Geth alive.
I'd elaborate further but I doubt a binary thinker like yourself would understand.

#185
KaiserShep

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...
Player 1 is Good. The Reapers are evil.

Player 1 is Good. The Geth sided with the Reapers. The Geth are therefore evil.

<---- Player 1 wants the Reapers dead and the Geth alive.
I'd elaborate further but I doubt a binary thinker like yourself would understand.


Yeah that's the thing that always bugged me about people who malign the destroy option. Those of us who managed to bring peace between the Quarians and geth were not all doing it just for the war assets, especially since those of us who have all the DLC's, or at least the extended cut, can get the same ending with destroy even if the geth don't see this war to the end with the rest of the fleets. My Shep sympathized with the geth after learning more about them, but got stuck into having to weigh the value of their lives to ridding the galaxy of reapers. I'm afraid it takes more than that for her to both die and spare the reapers, but no. We're all just simple-minded people who are banging on our computers trying to reach the juicy files inside. 

#186
Ieldra

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Note that I'm not maligning the Destroy option. I can see several good reasons for it - avoiding the risk of keeping the Reapers around, emphasizing the merit in taking our own path into the future being the most pertinent.

I insist, however, that those who Destroy are aware of what they are destroying - namely, the living history of a billion years of galactic civilization. Maybe it is really for the best in the long run to let the ghosts of the past die. None of us has any hard evidence on how things will look in ten thousand years, but we are making a decision about the future of the galaxy, and considerations of what that future might be should be paramount in people's minds. Especially in the light of the fact that the Reapers are mind-controlled, notions of evil and vengeance should have no bearing on our decision.

Meanwhile, those who are insisting that there is no merit in Control or Synthesis, yes, I am quite happy to malign those....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 mai 2013 - 03:54 .


#187
AresKeith

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I can see merit in Control and Synthesis, but I personally can't trust those options Imo

#188
Steelcan

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@Ieldra. I dont see evidence for the Reapers being mind controlled. Just because the Catalyst leads the Reapers does not mena he is in direct control. They appear to be autonomous and aware of their actions.

And the stored knowledge is at this time trivia, nothing more.

#189
Yestare7

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"Why synthesis is such an attractive option"

Hahahaha...


Merit = waffle

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Modifié par Yestare7, 07 mai 2013 - 04:10 .


#190
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

@Ieldra. I dont see evidence for the Reapers being mind controlled. Just because the Catalyst leads the Reapers does not mena he is in direct control. They appear to be autonomous and aware of their actions.

And the stored knowledge is at this time trivia, nothing more.


Ditto, and the same with the knowledge. We'll have the Reaper tech ourselves now, and we can rebuild and make our own future.

As I've said, I don't have a problem with transhumanism, but I do have a lot of problems with synthesis. The execution, the lack of science, the orator of the events, and the straight narrative inconsistency. It's also too much of an unknown. I don't have the Catalyst's perspective and it really doesn't elaborate. For all I know, choosing synthesis will turn everyone into husks. It does 'solve' the problem of conflict. He might not understand that I don't share the same idea of peace and understanding as him. I'm against control on the principle of not believing that any good can come out of a single person holding that much power. One way or another, the lack of a human connection will cause a fatal disruption which may lead to another cycle. I'm not risking the chance of renewing the cycle. Again it's also to big of an unknown.

I also don't believe in the idea of dying to create a change based on the word of my enemy. In either cases.

"Here, do this action. You'll die, but your death will cause this event to happen." I don't trust that. At all.

#191
Guest_tickle267_*

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Yestare7 wrote...
*snip*


i see your waffle and raise you a leek.

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#192
Yestare7

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tickle267 wrote...

Yestare7 wrote...
*snip*


i see your waffle and raise you a leek.

Image IPB


Ai! I got beat by a vegetable!!

#193
dreamgazer

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Meanwhile, those who are insisting that there is no merit in Control or Synthesis, yes, I am quite happy to malign those....


The unfortunate thing about all this is that there are essentially two sides to the conversation: discussing the merits of ensnaring control of synthetic aggressors and advancing organic life through funamental tech-based enhancement, and discussing "Control" and "Synthesis" as they're presented and relate to Mass Effect's universe. 

#194
Ieldra

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dreamgazer wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Meanwhile, those who are insisting that there is no merit in Control or Synthesis, yes, I am quite happy to malign those....


The unfortunate thing about all this is that there are essentially two sides to the conversation: discussing the merits of ensnaring control of synthetic aggressors and advancing organic life through funamental tech-based enhancement, and discussing "Control" and "Synthesis" as they're presented and relate to Mass Effect's universe. 

One question in this regard: Synthesis is an explicit rejection of the "appeal to nature" fallacy, while many characters allied with the protagonist in the MEU appear to support it. Does that meant that those characters are supposed to be right? That we are supposed to accept their opinions as objectively valid for the MEU? I, for one, are not willing to concede a point I see as complete bogus, no matter how much the ideology is trumpeted by certain NPCs and no matter how heavy-handed certain writers push their anti-transhumanist agenda. There is so much ideology that comes in the guise of science throughout the ME trilogy that turning everything upside down in the ending actually comes as a relief. If only the execution of the ending were better.

#195
Wayning_Star

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Ieldra2 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Meanwhile, those who are insisting that there is no merit in Control or Synthesis, yes, I am quite happy to malign those....


The unfortunate thing about all this is that there are essentially two sides to the conversation: discussing the merits of ensnaring control of synthetic aggressors and advancing organic life through funamental tech-based enhancement, and discussing "Control" and "Synthesis" as they're presented and relate to Mass Effect's universe. 

One question in this regard: Synthesis is an explicit rejection of the "appeal to nature" fallacy, while many characters allied with the protagonist in the MEU appear to support it. Does that meant that those characters are supposed to be right? That we are supposed to accept their opinions as objectively valid for the MEU? I, for one, are not willing to concede a point I see as complete bogus, no matter how much the ideology is trumpeted by certain NPCs and no matter how heavy-handed certain writers push their anti-transhumanist agenda. There is so much ideology that comes in the guise of science throughout the ME trilogy that turning everything upside down in the ending actually comes as a relief. If only the execution of the ending were better.


the only/main thing turned upside down is the destroy crowd insistent upon that request from the story. All that 'pressure' built to be upended by the reaper threat and the catalyst program ends up controlled by Shepard. So Shep get stuck with the check, so to speak. Everyone, by now, knows that the other choices besides synthesis in the MEU won't work any more.

Synthesis is canon only because it's of the MEU and it's citizenry. They demand nature be altered to untangle their involvement with synthetic life.  Like in the movie Crossroads , the only difference is the technology...

#196
KaiserShep

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lol there is no canon ending. The ending is one of the options you wish, but so far, none are extended beyond what the game provides.

#197
Yestare7

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Wayning_Star wrote...
Synthesis is canon



Don't bother Kaisershep, that's his fave Troll line.-_-