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Wait, why is control ending a bad choice again?


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#1
RMP _

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It seems most people think the 'right' choice to make is destroy. After watching all three, it looks like control is the best one to me.
If we assume everything is actually happening as we see it (no indoctrination test inside a dream) and break it down point by point some of the arguments I've seen.

1. It's bad because it's what the illusive man wanted and he's evil.
It would be bad if TIM himself got it, he's a tyrant with no morals and no conscience. He doesn't like non-human races and even committed unthinkable atrocities on humans themselves. My Shepard is a friendly, honorable guy with a maxed out paragon score. He can be trusted.

2. If the reapers don't die, you lose.
No, if the reapers and the cycle aren't stopped, you lose. 
 
3. You fought TIM all this time to stop him from trying to control them, why would it seem like a good idea at the very end?
Before the final scene, you don't know if control is even a possibility, but after talking with Catalyst, you now know it is. In ME1, no one was thinking alliance with the Geth. They were the bad guys. New information can and should change your decisions.

4. If you choose control, you're indoctrinated.
Weak chicken/egg argument here. I'll trust the catalyst when he says the reapers will obey Shepard. I don't see anything bad in the scenes following the decision. The reapers do in fact leave.


5. The catalyst is a liar, he's trying to trick you. We've been told from the beginning, you can't control the Reapers.
No one has ever made it as far as the catalyst, no one has ever had the crucible at their disposal, so the situation could be different this time.
Also, if you think he's lying about control, then everything he says about everything is suspect and you've got nothing to go on to make a choice. For example, he says to destroy the reapers, take the path on the right and start shooting. If he can't be trusted, how do we doing that wouldn't result in the destruction of the crucible?

I don't get the impression he's intentionally trying to deceive Shepard.I like how someone else put it: he's the author's mouthpiece.
Further, why not let you die in front of the control panel? If he doesn't bring you up to him, the reapers win. But he says he wants to find another solution now. So if he wants another solution, and assuming he just wants you to choose the control option so that he can take control of you, then the cycle continues and that solution isn't different. And if it's not different, why risk bringing you up there in the first place, you might choose the destroy option.

Finally, if control is really not possible, why did the reapers attack the cerberus base? We are told it is because they were researching, and coming close to, a solution to control the reapers.

 
Other arguments in favor of control:

1. Your decsion doesn't kill EDI or the entire Geth population.

2. The reapers are spared. That can be good thing. If the chaos theory comes true one day far off in the future, and they're in your control, they can still be used to help stop some new form of synthetics that plan to wipe out all organics.

3. A theme prevalent throughout the ME series is making peace with former enemies. The turians and humans were once at war. Krogans were once at war with others. My shepard saved the Rachni queen. He made peace between Quarians and Geth. It's pretty clear in the game that those choices are considered risky, but also the 'right' things to do. Killing the queen, or the Geth, are considered the renegade choices. I see control as a way to make peace without wiping out entire races or people, and that's what my shepard has been doing through all three games.

4. The whole red/blue color mix up, the theory is the catalyst is just trying to fool you (the player), but I think Bioware thinks the destroy option really is the renegade choice here. For 3 games, blue = paragon, red = renegade. Now, in the final critical moments of the entire series, they're going to switch it up?

Modifié par RMP _, 06 mai 2012 - 01:59 .


#2
RMP _

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double post

Modifié par RMP _, 04 mai 2012 - 05:15 .


#3
legion999

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Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.

#4
King of the Evil Crabs

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RMP _ wrote...

It seems most people think the 'right' choice to make is destroy. After watching all three, it looks like control is the best one to me.
If we assume everything is actually happening as we see it (no indoctrination test inside a dream) and break it down point by point some of the arguments I've seen.

1. It's bad because it's what the illusive man wanted and he's evil.
It would be bad if TIM himself got it, he's a tyrant with no morals and no conscience. He doesn't like non-human races and even committed unthinkable atrocities on humans themselves. My Shepard is a friendly, honorable guy with a maxed out paragon score. He can be trusted.


2. If the reapers don't die, you lose.
No, if the reapers and the cycle aren't stopped, you lose.


3. You fought TIM all this time to stop him from trying to control him, why would it seem like a good idea at the very end?
Before the final scene, you don't know if control is even a possibility, but after talking with Catalyst, you now know it is. In ME1, no one was thinking alliance with the Geth. They were the bad guys. New information can and should change your decisions.

4. If you choose control, you're indoctrinated.
Weak chicken/egg argument here. I'll trust the catalyst when he says the reapers will obey Shepard. I don't see anything bad in the scenes following the decision. The reapers do in fact leave.
 
Other arguments in favor of control:
1. Your decsion doesn't kill EDI or the entire Geth population.
2. The reapers are spared. That can be good thing. If the chaos theory comes true one day far off in the future, and they're in your control, they can still be used to help stop some new form of synthetics that plan to wipe out all organics.




I don't trust the catalyst.

I don't believe Shepard is truely capable of controlling the reapers.

Modifié par King of the Evil Crabs, 04 mai 2012 - 05:17 .


#5
Isichar

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There is absolutely no reason to believe the reapers can be controlled long term or otherwise. Infact theres a mountain of proof showing everyone whos ever tried failed horribly. And that I got the leader of the reapers telling me otherwise is more proof against it then for it.

Aside from that its unclear as to what level of control you have exactly, and i find the "you will control them BUT DIE" concept a joke, in what form do i remain in control if im dead?

Like synthesis its bad because it was handled so poorly AKA bad writing

Modifié par Isichar, 04 mai 2012 - 05:19 .


#6
Wulfram

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Logically, it's not bad. Risky, perhaps, but since it seems to work, not bad.

But it feels narratively wrong, because the game has basically been telling you "Control is bad" for the whole time. And Shepard has pretty much been saying "Control is bad" whenever you talk to TIM.

I mean, it's like if Lord of the Rings ended with Frodo claiming the One Ring as his own. Even if the book told us that this worked great, the Nazgul helped rebuild Minas Tirith and the Orcs all opened tea shops, it still wouldn't feel right.

#7
ItsNotMyProblem

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Why I didn't choose control is because the Reapers have an incredible influence and ability to twist and warp a person's mind, no matter how righteous they may be. If Shepard avoided it all this time, and he is such a power force, the Reapers may want to get "closer" to him.

Point number four is weak. You'll trust the catalyst, which has been wiping out organic life for numerous cycles. Ok. You don't see anything bad happening IMMEDIATELY following the decision. Yes, why would you? Why not let the people feel like they are safe, then hit them again?

#8
MakeMineMako

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If the Reapers are some sort of mind controlled slaves to the Space Brat, then "Control" does offer some good possibilities.

BUT, it is morally and ethically questionable, like the other two endings, unless there is some way to free them.And then, how will they react to both the news that they were brainwashed pawns that killed untold numbers over the centuries and their new found freedom?

Modifié par MakeMineMako, 04 mai 2012 - 05:21 .


#9
CmnDwnWrkn

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Great points. Really the only argument I've heard against "Control" is that TIM tries to control the Reapers and fails; therefore, "Control" must be bad. From the point of view of picking a choice without knowing the outcomes in advance, it certainly doesn't seem any WORSE than the other two options.

Plus, if you were able to control them, then you should be able to disable them.

#10
U7tra

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RMP _ wrote...

It seems most people think the 'right' choice to make is destroy. After watching all three, it looks like control is the best one to me.
If we assume everything is actually happening as we see it (no indoctrination test inside a dream) and break it down point by point some of the arguments I've seen.


1. It's bad because it's what the illusive man wanted and he's evil.
It would be bad if TIM himself got it, he's a tyrant with no morals and no conscience. He doesn't like non-human races and even committed unthinkable atrocities on humans themselves. My Shepard is a friendly, honorable guy with a maxed out paragon score. He can be trusted.


2. If the reapers don't die, you lose.
No, if the reapers and the cycle aren't stopped, you lose.



3. You fought TIM all this time to stop him from trying to control him, why would it seem like a good idea at the very end?
Before the final scene, you don't know if control is even a possibility, but after talking with Catalyst, you now know it is. In ME1, no one was thinking alliance with the Geth. They were the bad guys. New information can and should change your decisions.


4. If you choose control, you're indoctrinated.
Weak chicken/egg argument here. I'll trust the catalyst when he says the reapers will obey Shepard. I don't see anything bad in the scenes following the decision. The reapers do in fact leave.
 

Other arguments in favor of control:
1. Your decsion doesn't kill EDI or the entire Geth population.
2. The reapers are spared. That can be good thing. If the chaos theory comes true one day far off in the future, and they're in your control, they can still be used to help stop some new form of synthetics that plan to wipe out all organics.


I see you only have ME3 registered on your account.

Background: There is 5 solid years of 1-for-1 evidence that shows every time someone is manipulated into believing they can control/use/work with the Reapers, they are being indoctrinated and fooled, and they die/fail because of it.

Not sometimes, not usually... every. Single. Time.

#11
RMP _

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legion999 wrote...

Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.


I assume your body dies but your consciousness continues to  exist on a different level, maybe inside the citadel or throughout the reapers...

#12
jstme

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Easy - control is bad because all three are bad. :)
Why i did not choose control?
a) It is suggested by a thing that has deep ties with reapers.
B) I do not think that it is possible.
c) Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutly.
d) Shepard dies. Whatever controls the reapers - it is no longer Shepard.

But since all are bad - i do not say that destroy is (that) better then control. Green ending though i really hate.

#13
Isichar

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U7tra wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

It seems most people think the 'right' choice to make is destroy. After watching all three, it looks like control is the best one to me.
If we assume everything is actually happening as we see it (no indoctrination test inside a dream) and break it down point by point some of the arguments I've seen.


1. It's bad because it's what the illusive man wanted and he's evil.
It would be bad if TIM himself got it, he's a tyrant with no morals and no conscience. He doesn't like non-human races and even committed unthinkable atrocities on humans themselves. My Shepard is a friendly, honorable guy with a maxed out paragon score. He can be trusted.


2. If the reapers don't die, you lose.
No, if the reapers and the cycle aren't stopped, you lose.



3. You fought TIM all this time to stop him from trying to control him, why would it seem like a good idea at the very end?
Before the final scene, you don't know if control is even a possibility, but after talking with Catalyst, you now know it is. In ME1, no one was thinking alliance with the Geth. They were the bad guys. New information can and should change your decisions.


4. If you choose control, you're indoctrinated.
Weak chicken/egg argument here. I'll trust the catalyst when he says the reapers will obey Shepard. I don't see anything bad in the scenes following the decision. The reapers do in fact leave.
 

Other arguments in favor of control:
1. Your decsion doesn't kill EDI or the entire Geth population.
2. The reapers are spared. That can be good thing. If the chaos theory comes true one day far off in the future, and they're in your control, they can still be used to help stop some new form of synthetics that plan to wipe out all organics.


I see you only have ME3 registered on your account.

Background: There is 5 solid years of 1-for-1 evidence that shows every time someone is manipulated into believing they can control/use/work with the Reapers, they are being indoctrinated and fooled, and they die/fail because of it.

Not sometimes, not usually... every. Single. Time.


Just a note. I only got ME3 registered to my acct and yet I was part of these forums from day one believe it or not. I switched emails before ME3 came out. Having just ME3 registered does not mean its the only one people have played.

#14
Vox Draco

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Because it is based on the mere assumption you will control the reapers in a "good" way...

All the Kid says is "They will obey you" but also "you will die, and lose everything you have"...

Now if shepard would be allowed to ask some question about what that means...maybe we could tell for sure s/he will be able to use the reapers as a "freedom force" or fly them into the sun, as so many think it would surely turn out..

But based on the information and the one presenting it to us: Shepard kills her/himself...and supposedly upload his/her mind or soul or whatever (it is never made claer) into a machine of Reaper-Making. Reapers, you know, that are quite prominet for things like...indoctrinating people to believe what they believe?

But if you believe that your Shepard is strong enough to control thousands of ancient minds, including their catalyst-master, or if you are willing to simply trust the catalyst...go on, by all means! Try to control the Reapers that are so fond of controlling others.

Modifié par Vox Draco, 04 mai 2012 - 05:24 .


#15
Elcor Pride

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Because even if the Reapers can be controlled for infinity, how long do you think until Shepard goes crazy with power? 50 years? 1000? Its gonna happen, when there is a fallible human controlling the most powerful force in the galaxy.

#16
pottman

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All three endings are bad, case closed.

Modifié par pottman, 04 mai 2012 - 05:24 .


#17
CmnDwnWrkn

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U7tra wrote...
I see you only have ME3 registered on your account.

Background: There is 5 solid years of 1-for-1 evidence that shows every time someone is manipulated into believing they can control/use/work with the Reapers, they are being indoctrinated and fooled, and they die/fail because of it.

Not sometimes, not usually... every. Single. Time.


Well, we also have plenty of evidence that Shepard is different from everybody else.  How he can do things that no one. Else. Can.

#18
U7tra

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Isichar wrote...

Just a note. I only got ME3 registered to my acct and yet I was part of these forums from day one believe it or not. I switched emails before ME3 came out. Having just ME3 registered does not mean its the only one people have played.


You're very correct. I just feel like ME1 and ME2 provide so much reinforcement to the idea that you can *never* trust the Reapers/anything to do with them, that I was putting 2 and 2 together.

#19
Silpheed58

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Any choice that lets the Reapers live is a bad choice in my book. And the fact that you have no idea what really happens and have to head canon the after math makes it worse.

#20
Hihoshi101

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Did you play the rest of the games?

#21
Raiil

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All endings are bad. That being said, I chose control myself.

Context matters- My Shepard is a Renegon, but she is by no stretch of the imagination a TIM clone, either. Her end game is to stop the reaping with as little collateral damage as possible. She has no interest in trying to advance humanity through those means- rather she believes humanity can, should, and would prove themselves through fortitude and integrating themselves into galactic society. As she saved the Rachni twice, cured the genophage, and made peace between the Quarians and the Geth, destroy became a non-option as destroying a race when it's convienent is far too Reaperish for her tastes. Synthesis is tinkering with the genetic building blocks of countless civilisations, today and tomorrow, and a bad choice from an evolutionary POV.

Control became the only feasible option in her/my mind. It's not what she would have wanted by any stretch of the imagination, but the Reapers are enemy combatants and therefore flinging them into a sun is, while morally reprehensible on one level (it could be viewed as genocidal, and I'm honestly in conflict over that) also allowable as I am mandated, as a soldier, to kill enemy personnel.

Modifié par Valentia X, 04 mai 2012 - 05:27 .


#22
RMP _

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I see you only have ME3 registered on your account.



I own and have played the other two games and registered them. I think this account is based on my EA/Origin ID or something and it didn't combine them.

#23
Ridwan

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Here is a gun

https://encrypted-tb...VXJHeXM6bjh0Mwk

Put it against your temple and pull the trigger. Do that and you'll be able to control all of mankind!

What? You don't trust me? Why would I lie to you?


That's basically what Casper is saying to you.

Modifié par M25105, 04 mai 2012 - 05:33 .


#24
RMP _

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King of the Evil Crabs wrote...


I don't trust the catalyst.

I don't believe Shepard is truely capable of controlling the reapers.


The catalyst could have just left Shepard to die, bleeding out and collapsed in front of the control panel. Eventually, without the crucible doing anything, the fleet and other forces would dwindle away and the reapers win anyways. How is Shepard being indoctrinated by trying control option better for the catalyst?

#25
Navasha

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Because the case is made throughout the game.. that no one can control that much power. You pretty much have to assume that Shepard is dissolved and becomes an uploaded AI consciousness that takes the catalysts place.

Sure.. initially she may have the reapers leave. Then what? Is she going to force peace on the galaxy, through threat of extinction? How long does she maintain this control? In 300 years, if the geth have advanced to be an unstoppable force and start wiping out the races of the galaxy... does Shepard then realize that the catalyst was right and restarts the cycles?

To me, the long-term unknowns far outweigh any short term benefits.

An analogy I have used before... If a bomb was in a room with a hundred people and you had a choice..

1. Guaranteed that the bomb was disarmed by exploding a smaller bomb first killing 10 people, and leaving the other 90 alive.

Or

2. Trying to disarm the bomb to save everyone, but if you fail... all 100 die. Say.. its a 50/50 chance..

Which would you choose? There is no right or wrong answer.. its simply peoples different priorities. For me, 10 deaths that GUARANTEE the other 90 live... is a better choice than the risk of losing everyone.