376 réponses à ce sujet

[RMP _]

Eclipse merc wrote...

There's no reason to believe the space child is telling the truth...

Well, to take my comment about that from the first page..

If you think he's lying about control, then everything he says about everything is suspect and you've got nothing to go on to make a choice. For example, he says to destroy the reapers, take the path on the right and start shooting. If he can't be trusted, how do we know doing that wouldn't result in the destruction of the crucible?

Further, why not let you die in front of the control panel? If he doesn't bring you up to him, the reapers win. But he says he wants to find another solution now. So if he wants another solution, and assuming he just wants you to choose the control option so that he can take control of you, then the cycle continues and that solution isn't different. And if it's not different, why risk bringing you up there in the first place, you might choose the destroy option.

Modifié par RMP _, 04 mai 2012 - 11:18 .

[richard_rider]

Eclipse merc wrote...

There's no reason to believe the space child is telling the truth...

I think that's the point of the issue, some "thing" appears and tells you all these "facts" without any proof or precedence...and some people just take his word for it.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Xellith wrote...


The catalyst even says "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics"

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?" and how by the Cats own logic - the best course of action is to destroy the reapers.

Simple. I. REAPER. You're assuming that the starchild is the authors voice and that everything he says must be taken as god-given truth. Actually, its more likely given the extreme coldness n brutality of the reaper solution that they are simply machines like the ones in I. Robot that believe they are defending organic life by preserving it in reaper form n allowing new cycles to continue. Remember the AI in that wanted to control human society to protect people under the Three Laws from our own destructive urges; even to the point of killing humans n emplying violence.Therefore, the reapers were always wrong and you have no reason to accept what they say. Indeed Shephard says as much about his solution, he only stumbles a bit on synthisis because there isn't a drawback but its still serving the same misguided goal as the reapers. 

[richard_rider]

RMP _ wrote...

Well, to take my comment about that from the first page..

If you think he's lying about control, then everything he says about everything is suspect and you've got nothing to go on to make a choice. For example, he says to destroy the reapers, take the path on the right and start shooting. If he can't be trusted, how do we doing that wouldn't result in the destruction of the crucible?

Further, why not let you die in front of the control panel? If he doesn't bring you up to him, the reapers win. But he says he wants to find another solution now. So if he wants another solution, and assuming he just wants you to choose the control option so that he can take control of you, then the cycle continues and that solution isn't different. And if it's not different, why risk bringing you up there in the first place, you might choose the destroy option.

In destroy Shep "lives" even though Casper reassures him that he will die, that's about the only piece of proof thay maybe he's full of it.

As for dying in front of the control pannel, it may actually believe (as many sociopaths do) that it's actually in the right.

[rachellouise]

Xellith wrote...

Removing the Quote train lol.

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

The reapers arnt trying to wipe out all organic life?  Why not?  I thought that was the argument the catalyst made.  Eventually synthetics will completely wipe out organic life to paraphrase.  You are completely missing the point.  The reapers arnt wiping out all organic life completely.  Hence the catalysts argument that synthetics will ultimately want to wipe out all organic life is completely flawed.

You are arguing for the idea that eventually all synthetics will wipe out all organic life... cept the reapers who ARE synthetics but they havent wiped out all organic life.

Every time you argue that the reapers are not wiping out all organic life - you are fighting your own arugment.

You want us all to believe this:
Synthetics - WILL ultimately destroy ALL organic life in the galaxy.
Reapers - Synthetics who kill ONLY advanced races.
Organics - WILL ultimately create synthetics.

Answer me this.  Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy.  Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics.

Explain because I think you are confusing yourself.

No you are mis-reading, or intentionallyy trying to twist my words in order to try and 'win'.

I have put it very clearly.

The synthetics which are to wipe out all life, have not been built yet. Right?

The catalyst and reapers have been harvesting each 50k years to slow advancement. right?

I'm not saying "after xxx years of existing, these synthetics are going to decide to destroy you", but organics will get to the stage where they are able to , and will, build something that they will have no chance against. Clear?

That stage is what the catalyst has been stalling. The synthetics he is warning against have yet to be built.

"The synthetics which are to wipe out all life, have not been built yet. Right?"
Correct.  Synthetics that will wipe out ALL organic life have not been created since there is obviously organic life in the galaxy.

"The catalyst and reapers have been harvesting each 50k years to slow advancement. right?"
Arguable.  They have been reaping once every 50000 years with the intention of stopping advanced civilisations from creating synthetics that will pose a great risk (or so we are told.).  The catalyst himself even states that eventually synthetics will want to destroy all organics.  XXX amount of time the reapers will want to do the same if the catalysts logic is correct (which it isnt since it hasnt happened yet).

"I'm not saying "after xxx years of existing, these synthetics are going to decide to destroy you",
but organics will get to the stage where they are able to , and will,
build something that they will have no chance against. Clear?"
Understood.  However the Reapers were made billions of years ago.  The time of a synthetic race being super powerful came long ago.

"That stage is what the catalyst has been stalling. The synthetics he is warning against have yet to be built."
If what he says is accurate then the reapers exist to stop organics making a race that might defeat the reapers.  Seems more like self preservation than for our benifit.  They get to repoduce by harvesting us, they keep the competition down, they live forever.  They are securing their spot as the dominant force in the galaxy.

This is where the argument breaks down even more.

The catalyst even says "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics"

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?" and how by the Cats own logic - the best course of action is to destroy the reapers.

Thanks for removing all the quotes xD

The last part is why I think he is referring to something other than the reapers, being the major synthetics, using "without us" he sees them as different/ seperate. Them, and us. And the synthetics that currently exist are not the threat, I think he would take them out. Instead he is concentrating on preventing something

I know all this major speculation only works if you believe the catalyst truly wants to save organics/ prevent what is destined to be.

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 11:20 .

[xsdob]

Eclipse merc wrote...

There's no reason to believe the space child is telling the truth...

There's also no reason to not trust him. He could have let you die down there with anderson but didn't. He could have let the cycle go on uninterupted but did not. He could have given shepard no choices or lied and said synthesis is the only choice the crucible made but did not.

There are too many times when the catalyst could have completly ****ed shepard over but didn't so there's no reason to not trust it either.

Modifié par xsdob, 04 mai 2012 - 11:21 .

[Arivael]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Arivael wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Arivael wrote...

The Cataylst itself tells you that "you will lose everything you have" by taking control of the Reapers, that right there is reason enought to rule the choice out as for all you know that includes your decision to stop the cycle. Control may look like the best option on the surface but it is the one that is going to come back and bite you in the end. Be it in 1, 100, 1000, 10,000 years time it will come back to bite you.

He means losing your body, along with the fact that Shephard becomes something incomprehensibly different than he was before. A normal person going to a machine hive mind super AI is huge difference. But it clearly does not change shephards morals or choices or his 'soul' since you see the machines go blue n leave Earth. Whether that means Shep could communicate once hes in the thing is debatable n maybe the extended cut might let you do that, you appear in starchild ghost form

Using knowlage you would not have when you make the decision does not help your argument.

Now let me exsplain the meaning of the word everything, it means EVERYTHING, mind, body and soul, you say that because you see the reapers stop and fly away AFTER you make this choice that it must not of change you decision to stop the Reapers YET it could still result in whatever you are now changing you mind again later and starting again, and what happens to Starbrat, do you control him aswell, merge with him, replace him? You have know idea what will happen with Control you are being asked to take a leap of faith based on infomation provided by the being that is;
1. Responsiable for the whole situation in the first place
2. Is either the most incompatent liar ever or most inconcistant being in the galaxy based on what and how it gives you this infomation.

We are talking about the consequences of the action. NOT if Shpehard would choose something if we were RPG in his mind on our first playthrough. That is not whats under discussion.

Everything is a vague concept, clearly Shephard has not lost his soul otherwise there would have been nothing to influence the reapers. We know that no other power, or other reaper was able to surpass the starchild; its control was absoltue. Once the the catalyst lets Shephard surpass the starchild then in effect Shephard can never be convinced to turn. Also, you're bein deeply cynical that Shephard doesn't have the strength of will or would be too weak to resist the reapers. If we take cynical views of the other endings then they aren't good either. Synthesis there are still reapers who will turn once the peace doesn't last. Destruction means no reapers to stop singularity apocalypse. Control is no different.

As my femshep would tell you 'The Ladies not for turning.'

Odd here I though the thread was called "Why is control a bad CHOICE again?" just because the immediate results turn out to be good does not mean that when you made the choice with the infomation you had available to make it with was good. Also you are saying that Shepard's point of view and personalite will not change at any point over then next year, ten years, one hunderd years or even the next thousand, that you will stay as this force projecting your will onto a race of sentiant machince whos whole purpose for exsitance is being denied to them, also it says "the created will always rebel against their creators" so that would imply that the reapers would have turned on it at some point so its control was not unending and absolut.

[TMA LIVE]

I actually want to use Control as a loophole to Destroy the Reapers without killing the Geth and EDI.

http://social.biowar.../index/11842598

The reason why I prefer this, is that I don't trust Shepard being in control for too long. Eventually, he might lose his sanity, or the Reapers will escape his control. Thus, I'd rather use the option to kill them.

[Iakus]

richard_rider wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

Well, to take my comment about that from the first page..

If you think he's lying about control, then everything he says about everything is suspect and you've got nothing to go on to make a choice. For example, he says to destroy the reapers, take the path on the right and start shooting. If he can't be trusted, how do we doing that wouldn't result in the destruction of the crucible?

Further, why not let you die in front of the control panel? If he doesn't bring you up to him, the reapers win. But he says he wants to find another solution now. So if he wants another solution, and assuming he just wants you to choose the control option so that he can take control of you, then the cycle continues and that solution isn't different. And if it's not different, why risk bringing you up there in the first place, you might choose the destroy option.

In destroy Shep "lives" even though Casper reassures him that he will die, that's about the only piece of proof thay maybe he's full of it.

As for dying in front of the control pannel, it may actually believe (as many sociopaths do) that it's actually in the right.

In Destroy, the kid implies you'll die "Even you are partly synthetic"  But outright states the geth will die "You could destroy all synthetic life, even the Geth"

Shepard only lives with an obscenely high EMS, impossible to get with just SP.  Which implies the kid may be mistaken, but not lying.  And I have yet to see hard proof of EDI surviving Red

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Because YOU are Shephard. So changing your mind is up to you unless Bioware take that decision out of your hands in which case they'll have resorted to canon and the decision was never yours to make anyway.

Madness, no, Shephard went through too much trying to beat the reapers to go back on that. It would be truly trajic if he did turn and I doubt that they would have something that grimdark happen.

Modifié par Mass effect 2 forever, 04 mai 2012 - 11:29 .

[rachellouise]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Because YOU are Shephard. So thats up to you unless Bioware take that decision out of your hands in which case they'll have resorted to canon and the decision was never yours to make anyway.

Yep. My shepard's story, and allll my speculation are probably going to be destroyed with EC. Though I won't be able to stop myself, I will sacrifice my speculations, so I can hear/see some more kaidan xd

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 11:31 .

[RMP _]

richard_rider wrote...


In destroy Shep "lives" even though Casper reassures him that he will die, that's about the only piece of proof thay maybe he's full of it.

He never actually says that though. He says it will destroy all synthetics, then says Shepard is partly synthetic. He never says the destroy option results in Shepard's death.

[Navasha]

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?" and how by the Cats own logic - the best course of action is to destroy the reapers.

Its quite possible that the reapers actually DID destroy all organic life. Imagine the very first organic species in the galaxy to make synthetic life. No reapers exist, no cycle exists. Lets just say it happens in a similar way to the Geth/Quarians. The new AI evolves/upgrades quickly. It rebels against its creators attempts to shut it down. It wipes out their creator civilization. No other space-faring races yet exist. They expand throughout the galaxy, wiping out any and all civilizations no matter how threatening they might be.

They reach the very edges of the galaxy and there is no where else to go, nothing else to do. They find themselves without a purpose. They are existing to just be existing. The AI still strives to become more than it is, but realizes it lacks the ability to conceive of how to become more than it is.

However, the organics it destroyed had abilities to think in abstract non-logical ways and decides thereing lies the answer. It decides to allow life to evolve and expand into the galaxy. So it sets up the relays and the cycles begin. They retreat to darkspace so as not to interfere before it is time.

Then when organics have covered the galaxy, the reapers rush in to harvest and study them. All that they are is boiled down and imprinted inside a reaper shell in the hopes that the AI will discover its answer on how the AI, itself, might ascend.

The cycles repeat, until one day the races of the galaxy managed to build something so powerful, that the AI could possibly use it to finally achieve its long awaited goal.

[Arivael]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Because YOU are Shephard. So changing your mind is up to you unless Bioware take that decision out of your hands in which case they'll have resorted to canon and the decision was never yours to make anyway.

Madness, no, Shephard went through too much trying to beat the reapers to go back on that. It would be truly trajic if he did turn and I doubt that they would have something that grimdark happen.

They have shown in the past they are willing to make decisions for you (or more to the point not give them to you) before so the "because you are Shepard" argument is not vaild.

Every mind has its breaking point.

[d-boy15]

RMP _ wrote...

richard_rider wrote...


In destroy Shep "lives" even though Casper reassures him that he will die, that's about the only piece of proof thay maybe he's full of it.

He never actually says that though. He says it will destroy all synthetics, then says Shepard is partly synthetic. He never says the destroy option results in Shepard's death.

He never say in synthesis shepard will die too.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Navasha wrote...

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?" and how by the Cats own logic - the best course of action is to destroy the reapers.

Its quite possible that the reapers actually DID destroy all organic life. Imagine the very first organic species in the galaxy to make synthetic life. No reapers exist, no cycle exists. Lets just say it happens in a similar way to the Geth/Quarians. The new AI evolves/upgrades quickly. It rebels against its creators attempts to shut it down. It wipes out their creator civilization. No other space-faring races yet exist. They expand throughout the galaxy, wiping out any and all civilizations no matter how threatening they might be.

They reach the very edges of the galaxy and there is no where else to go, nothing else to do. They find themselves without a purpose. They are existing to just be existing. The AI still strives to become more than it is, but realizes it lacks the ability to conceive of how to become more than it is.

However, the organics it destroyed had abilities to think in abstract non-logical ways and decides thereing lies the answer. It decides to allow life to evolve and expand into the galaxy. So it sets up the relays and the cycles begin. They retreat to darkspace so as not to interfere before it is time.

Then when organics have covered the galaxy, the reapers rush in to harvest and study them. All that they are is boiled down and imprinted inside a reaper shell in the hopes that the AI will discover its answer on how the AI, itself, might ascend.

The cycles repeat, until one day the races of the galaxy managed to build something so powerful, that the AI could possibly use it to finally achieve its long awaited goal.

Not really seeing it. The reapers told you they were acting to preserve organic life n prevent its destruction in the name of the greater good. Its more likely that the reapers were built as organic/syn warships of some sort that could defeat some synthetic race which had decided to destroy all organics. They suceeded but were smart enough to realise that the same problem would occur again 'ala I Robot' They thus harvested their creators and began the cycles without actually realising that those synthetics who tried to destroy their creators were the exception not the rule and have simply been trying to fulfil their programming as best they can. When Shpehard linked them to the catalyst he presented an alternative they could understand in synthesis.

[ediskrad327]

silly! all choices are bad!

[rachellouise]

more speculations.

Maybe the catalyst /is/ a being of light. The reapers were created in their cycle, the reapers rebelled, and wiped out all organic life, the beings of light managed to gain control of the reapers. The reapers wore themselves out, they couldn't fight light, but the light could fight them, so they surrendered. The beings got inside and made it so the reapers would not disobey them, they weren't going to just believe the reapers were going to be good without being controlled.

They had to wait quite a few millennia, waiting for organic life to evolve once again. Filling the time training the reapers. etc..

The beings of light swore to never let this tragedy repeat *tear*. They sacrificed the few for the many, preventing organics from creating something so strong, they stood no chance against it.

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 11:45 .

[Xellith]

Navasha wrote...

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?" and how by the Cats own logic - the best course of action is to destroy the reapers.

Its quite possible that the reapers actually DID destroy all organic life. Imagine the very first organic species in the galaxy to make synthetic life. No reapers exist, no cycle exists. Lets just say it happens in a similar way to the Geth/Quarians. The new AI evolves/upgrades quickly. It rebels against its creators attempts to shut it down. It wipes out their creator civilization. No other space-faring races yet exist. They expand throughout the galaxy, wiping out any and all civilizations no matter how threatening they might be.

They reach the very edges of the galaxy and there is no where else to go, nothing else to do. They find themselves without a purpose. They are existing to just be existing. The AI still strives to become more than it is, but realizes it lacks the ability to conceive of how to become more than it is.

However, the organics it destroyed had abilities to think in abstract non-logical ways and decides thereing lies the answer. It decides to allow life to evolve and expand into the galaxy. So it sets up the relays and the cycles begin. They retreat to darkspace so as not to interfere before it is time.

Then when organics have covered the galaxy, the reapers rush in to harvest and study them. All that they are is boiled down and imprinted inside a reaper shell in the hopes that the AI will discover its answer on how the AI, itself, might ascend.

The cycles repeat, until one day the races of the galaxy managed to build something so powerful, that the AI could possibly use it to finally achieve its long awaited goal.

Interesting fan fic.  But thats all this really is.  You are asuming way too much.  An argument needs to stand on its merits.

[crimzontearz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...you are doing what in Italy we refer to as climbing mirrors

I am not from Italy so the saying is lost on me.

grasping at straws...

[shepskisaac]

Xellith wrote...

The catalyst even says "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics"

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?"

Reapers are not the same kind of synthetics as Geth or EDI are. Reapers come from organic intelligence, they have the perspective of organic races Geth/EDI do not have as fully artifical AIs. Therefore, it is not implausible that Reapers would care for organics in some way

[Alpr]

Wait, there's a GOOD choice?

[KingNothing125]

Control is bad because you're signing up to be the steward of the galaxy for, presumably, eternity. That's a pretty crappy job. No retiring to live off the proceeds from the vids, no meeting in the bar in heaven... you're the galaxy's beat cop forever. A thankless job which requires you to make galaxy-shaping decisions. What if, after Control, the Geth do get all uppity and revolt against organics? Do you use the Reapers to wipe them out? Just let it play out? Wipe out the Quarians afterwards to prevent it from happening again? What about smaller skirmishes like the Batarians raiding a colony for slaves? Can you even keep track of an entire galaxy with billions of people? That would be completely exhausting. I suppose you could commit suicide by trashing all the Reapers in a black hole, or tossing them into a star... but if you're going to do that, why not just choose Destroy?

Assuming, of course, your control of the Reapers is permanent. What happens if it wears off? Are the Reapers just going to back to harvesting? Oh well, Shep's dead. Hopefully there's another superhero out there somewhere.

That's why I think Control is a bad choice. You are free to disagree, I don't care. I think Destroy is the only choice to make.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 05 mai 2012 - 01:08 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'd say I'd use my new found power to wipe out the Geth.

Wiping out the Quarians won't prevent it from happening again. Then I'd drop newly designed reaper artifacts on all worlds inhabited by organics to indoctrinate them not to create AIs. Some propaganda might be required.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 05 mai 2012 - 01:13 .

[Xellith]

IsaacShep wrote...

Xellith wrote...

The catalyst even says "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics"

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?"

Reapers are not the same kind of synthetics as Geth or EDI are. Reapers come from organic intelligence, they have the perspective of organic races Geth/EDI do not have as fully artifical AIs. Therefore, it is not implausible that Reapers would care for organics in some way

The reapers are each a nation - independant.  The geth are like this.  They reapers even converse amongst themselves.  The reaper on Rannoch confirms this with "Harbinger speaks of you".  Yet the "will" of these beings want the destruction of all advanced organic life.  The reaper on rannoch argues that "the cycle must continue".

The catalyst says he controls the reapers.  Yet he didnt seem to affect the "will" of either Sovereign, or The Rannoch Reaper.  (Harbinger too unless he - the catalyst actually is harbinger).  Those reapers seemed pretty willing to do the catalysts bidding. (if the catalyst is even real).

Let us asume that the reapers have the technology to upload a mind in the same state as it was in an organic body without losing the essence of the individual.  Are you suggesting that organic minds once uploaded to a reaper would willingly collaborate and assist on the destruction of races not yet evolved?

If the upload to a reaper is anything like the control option itself - they would lose "everything they are" once they are uploaded - only to be controlled by the catalyst - who would be completely AI as far as we know.

Regardless of how you look at the reaper creation is irrelevant since their master is an AI.  (apparantly)

Too many unanswered questions to form an adaquate opinion on this.  Too many assumptions.  Hopefully extended cut will fillin these gaps in our knowledge.

Modifié par Xellith, 05 mai 2012 - 01:16 .