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Wait, why is control ending a bad choice again?

Débuté par RMP _ , mai 04 2012 05:14

376 réponses à ce sujet

#51
Ieldra
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:32

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I agree with you, OP. While I'm a proponent of Synthesis because I find it acceptable to take a risk for a shortcut in artificial evolution, objectively Control is probably the best ending. All the arguments presented against it are based on people's personal value system (power corrupts, yadda, yadda) and invoking risks the game explicitly denies. The Catalyst says the Reapers will obey you, and since the Catalyst is the writers' mouthpiece, you know that's how it will be. If you don't trust it, then all choices are equally suspect and the choice does not matter in any way. It may be a presentation failure, but I take the choices in the spirit they were intended, and from that viewpoint Control is a very good choice.

It's pretty apparent Control will transform Shepard into some kind of AI god like the Catalyst, making him the new guardian of the galaxy. And while controlling the Reapers may be morally questionable, all endings have similar problems, and morals aren't everything - a fact that too many people here appear to forget.

BTW:
While checking the ending videos again, I noticed this: in the high-EMS Destroy ending, a firestorm engulfs the city, leaving buildings standing but burning them, apparently doing a lot of damage since you only see the blackened husks after the firestorm has passed. In Control nothing like that happens. The buildings are left standing and undamaged, with only the damage of the previous fighting present.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 mai 2012 - 06:41 .

#52
PsyrenY
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:36

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U7tra wrote...

I do. But I see Shepared getting crisped after he grabs the... stuff... during Control, and I see Reapers falling down dead after I pick Destroy.


You see that, but Shepard pretty obviously would not, therefore you're metagaming.

And if you're willing to metagame in Destroy's favor, you should know that Control results in the Reapers leaving too, so it must have worked.

#53
DLClol
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:36

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Still don't understand why the cataylst would even need to lie to Shepard at all, if his goal was to fool Shepard into the wrong choice why not just kill Shepard instead. Seems a lot easier

#54
NoSpin
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:38

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Because Shepard drills it into your head (MANY times) that control of the reapers is not possible, and even if it was nobody should ever have that kind of power. And then in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd game a brand new character comes out and goes "Yo dude it's TOTALLY possible, you trust me right dawg?"

No Ghost kid, I don't trust you. I trust Shepard, and my Shepard would never control the reapers.

#55
essarr71
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:39

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Even ignoring all the ambiguity of what control actually means, Reapers are A.I. Each an independant being. Control is - at best - indoctrination: not exactly an honorable action.

Why this effect wouldn't also affect EDI and the Geth is totally up in the air. In light of all the questions, yes, i'll sacrifice the Geth to make sure the job is actually done.

#56
StElmo
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:40

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NoSpin wrote...

Because Shepard drills it into your head (MANY times) that control of the reapers is not possible, and even if it was nobody should ever have that kind of power. And then in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd game a brand new character comes out and goes "Yo dude it's TOTALLY possible, you trust me right dawg?"

No Ghost kid, I don't trust you. I trust Shepard, and my Shepard would never control the reapers.


+1

Paragon Shep is wise, he/she knows this. Power corrupts,as I said before.

#57
sH0tgUn jUliA
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:40

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It boils down to this if you have high EMS:

* do you want to leave the Turians and Quarians to Donner Party tactics to get home when the mass relays are destroyed? It will take a long time to rebuild galactic civilization.

* do you want to turn every living thing both flora and fauna into part computer part organic? Again it will take a long time to rebuild galactic civilization, but your food will go crunch, and snap, crackle, and pop! They may not be husks, but there is also a price to be paid.

* end this cycle now, and give your comrades a chance to get home without having to resort to cannibalism. Galactic civilization will rebuild faster.

The reapers will obey you because you're the head reaper. You take over for Harbinger. Again there is a price to be paid. You could just leave for darkspace and stay there and leave no sentinel behind which essentially leaves the civilizations to go their own way. Or you could leave a sentinel behind. That's up to BioWare.

And they may even put safeguards in effect to defeat your ass if you come back in 50,000 yrs.

#58
PsyrenY
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:43

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DLClol wrote...

Still don't understand why the cataylst would even need to lie to Shepard at all, if his goal was to fool Shepard into the wrong choice why not just kill Shepard instead. Seems a lot easier


It would be easy too. If Synthesis is really what the Reapers want:

Low EMS - don't bother waking Shepard up, this cycle has failed. Reap and win.
High EMS - The Crucible can finally do what they want! Wake Shepard up and only tell him to jump into the beam. Score!

If his goal is to lie to you, nothing else makes any kind of sense.

#59
Ieldra
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:43

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
The reapers will obey you because you're the head reaper. You take over for Harbinger. Again there is a price to be paid. You could just leave for darkspace and stay there and leave no sentinel behind which essentially leaves the civilizations to go their own way. Or you could leave a sentinel behind. That's up to BioWare.

No, it's not up to Bioware. It's up to your imagination, unless Bioware chooses to present us with a post-Reaper canon. Which won't happen.

#60
wright1978
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:47

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I agree with you, OP. While I'm a proponent of Synthesis, objectively Control is probably the best ending. All the arguments presented against it are based on people's personal value system (power corrupts, yadda, yadda) and invoking risks the game explicitly denies. The Catalyst says the Reapers will obey you, and since the Catalyst is the writers' mouthpiece, you know that's how it will be. If you don't trust it, then all choices are equally suspect and the choice does not matter in any way. It may be a presentation failure, but I take the choices in the spirit they were intended, and from that viewpoint Control is a very good choice.

It's pretty apparent Control will transform Shepard into some kind of AI god like the Catalyst, making him the new guardian of the galaxy. And while controlling the Reapers may be morally questionable, all endings have similar problems, and morals aren't everything - a fact that too many people here appear to forget.


Don't accept catalyst as writer's mouthpiece, it is the reapers mouthpiece. Yes all 3 choices are suspect given they are presented by an evil genocidal maniac. If i'm forced to choose one of the ****ty options i will choose the one that it likes least and that feels less like a trap or a debasement of life in sacrifice for not being reaped.

#61
Guest_Fibonacci_*
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:49

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To me it is no better or worse than either of the other two versions of the same ending. You can spin them how ever you want and if it helps you deal whith the ending then good luck and you are absolutely correct in your conclusions. I feel that this final decision carries as much weight as any other choice I made through the 3 games. Do I let Wrex go with me when I talk to Fist knowing that Wrex will kill him? Do I push the Red, Blue or Green explosion button? Same diff. Citadel blows up, Normandy crashes and credits roll. No one is any better or worse than the others.

Come to think of it, the choice about killing Fist has more impact on the game than the button you push at the end. If I let Fist live I get a few lines of conversation with him in ME2. There is no additional conversation no matter which color you pick.

#62
Sparse
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:50

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xsdob wrote...
 because not a lot of people picked it they think it's automatically bad.


As it's the job of the writers to direct people to the conclusion that they want them to have then whatever the majority went for should be right.

#63
essarr71
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:50

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Fist deserves a better ending?

#64
Darksaberexile
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:54

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Here's the problem I see with Control, and why I chose Destroy:

Shepard was already struggling with regrets over lost squadmates before the final attack. Based on what's available in game, he has no reason to believe any of his companions are still alive that helped in the attack. Add to this that he just had a faceoff with the Illusive Man somehow controlling his body temporarily (long enough to make him shoot Anderson), and Shepard may or may not be able to prevent TIM from killing Anderson. All of this would result in a large mental strain on Shepard, even without the massive physical injuries inflicted by Harbinger's beam.

Added to all of this, the Crucible is not firing. If Shepard doesn't figure out a way to make it work, everyone dies. This results in having to desperately choose one of 3 options. Now, in theory Control would work, but that's assuming the Catalyst/Reapers don't resist or try to interfere. Using Control would require a slight delay to truly get used to (imagine something along the lines of the Geth consensus, but without Legion guiding you through it and helping you). In that time, the Catalyst or Reapers could try to interfere with what Shepard perceives to be happening, breaking his already strained mind.

Personally, I wasn't willing to gamble with the Catalyst being honest and helpful when it was either:

1. Risk everything to try to take control of the Reapers, and trust that the Catalyst won't intervene, knowing that if you gambled incorrectly the Reapers win.

2. Sacrifice the Geth and EDI to be sure that the Reapers are gone, if what the Catalyst said is true. He may or may not lie about the risk to the Geth/EDI to try to discourage you from Destroy.

(note: My reaction to the synthesis option is lolsynthesis, there was no reason to believe that jumping into a giant energy beam would result in anything other than Shepard being incinerated and the Reapers happily reaping.)

#65
sH0tgUn jUliA
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:54

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Ieldra2 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
The reapers will obey you because you're the head reaper. You take over for Harbinger. Again there is a price to be paid. You could just leave for darkspace and stay there and leave no sentinel behind which essentially leaves the civilizations to go their own way. Or you could leave a sentinel behind. That's up to BioWare.

No, it's not up to Bioware. It's up to your imagination, unless Bioware chooses to present us with a post-Reaper canon. Which won't happen.


Post reaper canon would be ME4 sequel without Shepard. Don't rule it out. They said "Shepard's story ends in Mass Effect 3." High EMS/Control is the only way ME can progress forward in time. And I don't think there will be any carry forward save game since we'll be talking about a different console platform for the XBox and the Playstation. Basically the slate is clean.

New characters. Possibly set in 2450. I think Liara and Grunt would be the only two characters left alive out of the lot. Liara as Shadow Broker? You won't even know where she is. Just "the Shadow Broker." Grunt? possibly a Krogan general NPC. Eve? I wouldn't be surprised if she's running Tuchanka. The rest? Dead and gone claimed to time including our Prothean friend.

#66
Ieldra
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:58

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If they make Liara appear in yet another game I'll refuse to buy it. I used to like her in ME1, but her becoming Creator's Pet has cured me of that.

As for a sequel, I very much doubt it since they'd have to establish a canon ending for ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 mai 2012 - 06:59 .

#67
xsdob
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 06:58

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StElmo wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

Because Shepard drills it into your head (MANY times) that control of the reapers is not possible, and even if it was nobody should ever have that kind of power. And then in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd game a brand new character comes out and goes "Yo dude it's TOTALLY possible, you trust me right dawg?"

No Ghost kid, I don't trust you. I trust Shepard, and my Shepard would never control the reapers.


+1

Paragon Shep is wise, he/she knows this. Power corrupts,as I said before.


and as I said before it is neutral and up to the weilder. Which is why my paragon shepard opposed the illusive man getting that power. Controling the reapers was never out of the question, it was the fact that the illusive man has already proven that he is too ruthless and uncaring to ever be trusted with such power.

Already he has forsaken countless lives for the sake of strengthing humanity, who's to say he wouldn't do the same for others. My shepard is for equality for everyone and for mercy and compassion, and that is the type of person I'd trust to either control or influence the reapers.

#68
sH0tgUn jUliA
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:01

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wright1978 wrote...

Don't accept catalyst as writer's mouthpiece, it is the reapers mouthpiece. Yes all 3 choices are suspect given they are presented by an evil genocidal maniac. If i'm forced to choose one of the ****ty options i will choose the one that it likes least and that feels less like a trap or a debasement of life in sacrifice for not being reaped.


Okay, let's go with this. Say the catalyst is an evil genocial maniac -- it's a machine. It has no morals. But say it did and had motivations and convoluted psychology. But even sometimes these evil maniacs get tired of the same game after a billion years. Maybe it just wants out. Would it be possible that it might make you think that it least likes the option it likes the most and hopes that you pick that?

No, that would be too sophisticated for the writers.<_<

#69
Ieldra
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:02

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xsdob wrote...

StElmo wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

Because Shepard drills it into your head (MANY times) that control of the reapers is not possible, and even if it was nobody should ever have that kind of power. And then in the last 5 minutes of the 3rd game a brand new character comes out and goes "Yo dude it's TOTALLY possible, you trust me right dawg?"

No Ghost kid, I don't trust you. I trust Shepard, and my Shepard would never control the reapers.


+1

Paragon Shep is wise, he/she knows this. Power corrupts,as I said before.


and as I said before it is neutral and up to the weilder. Which is why my paragon shepard opposed the illusive man getting that power. Controling the reapers was never out of the question, it was the fact that the illusive man has already proven that he is too ruthless and uncaring to ever be trusted with such power.

Already he has forsaken countless lives for the sake of strengthing humanity, who's to say he wouldn't do the same for others. My shepard is for equality for everyone and for mercy and compassion, and that is the type of person I'd trust to either control or influence the reapers.

Exactly, My Control-Shepard isn't such a Paragon of virtue as yours, but she has some sort of Prime Directive: if you're a god, "Do nothing unless absolutely necessary" is a very good guideline. As much as possible, the future of the galaxy should be for the species of the galaxy to shape, not for her. 

#70
Numara
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:07

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Yeah Harvy true intentions Becoming Shep into his Reaper king/Queen (using that human Reaper as vessel)

#71
Sparse
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:10

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Ieldra2 wrote...
As for a sequel, I very much doubt it since they'd have to establish a canon ending for ME3.


Synthesis will be canon.

They spent most of ME3 appearing to wish they were making Deus Ex in space and with synthesis they actually can.

#72
rachellouise
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:15

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yeah, isn't the best stuff unlocked the better you do? Synthesis requires the highest EMS

#73
wright1978
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:16

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Don't accept catalyst as writer's mouthpiece, it is the reapers mouthpiece. Yes all 3 choices are suspect given they are presented by an evil genocidal maniac. If i'm forced to choose one of the ****ty options i will choose the one that it likes least and that feels less like a trap or a debasement of life in sacrifice for not being reaped.


Okay, let's go with this. Say the catalyst is an evil genocial maniac -- it's a machine. It has no morals. But say it did and had motivations and convoluted psychology. But even sometimes these evil maniacs get tired of the same game after a billion years. Maybe it just wants out. Would it be possible that it might make you think that it least likes the option it likes the most and hopes that you pick that?

No, that would be too sophisticated for the writers.<_<


I certainly entertained the notion that it was playing with me like a cat plays with a mouse. Even if i did think i was the mouse, being the mouse is never good.

#74
Guest_Fibonacci_*
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:17

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essarr71 wrote...

Fist deserves a better ending?

LOL

No, he deserves to be shot and left for dead after putting my Tali in danger ...

Let me put this in a more pro-BW perspective.  This is probably what they had in mind anyway.
Any choice you made through the series was the correct choice.
Did you kill the Rachni Queen or let her live?  That's the correct choice!
Did you cure the genophage?  That's exactly what was supposed to happen!

In the end, you wind out this long string along your chosen path for your own, unique story.   Did you pick control?  Perfect! That's they way it is supposed to end.  At least for your Shepard.

Ever path is canon.  Every choice is the correct choice.  Your final story is the only story that matters.

Get it?

So ... control is the correct choice.  If it fits your story, that is.  All your choices matter because they become the story of your Commander Shepard.

nState = bwFanBoy(off);
What happens when there is no wrong choice?  Then there is no choice at all.  Thus, RGB fail mode.  They are all equally impotent and I refuse to pick one as being correct for my story.  But that's why we are all arguing about the correct choice; because they are all equally correct and/or incorrect.

Modifié par Fibonacci, 04 mai 2012 - 07:18 .

#75
PsyrenY
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 07:19

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Ieldra2 wrote...

If they make Liara appear in yet another game I'll refuse to buy it. I used to like her in ME1, but her becoming Creator's Pet has cured me of that.

As for a sequel, I very much doubt it since they'd have to establish a canon ending for ME3.


Given how long she (and Wrex) can live, they'd need one hell of a timeskip to kill her.


rachellouise wrote...

yeah, isn't the best stuff unlocked the better you do? Synthesis requires the highest EMS


Actually:

Synthesis = 2800 EMS
Destroy + Live = 4000 EMS
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