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[PsyrenY]

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

[pharsti]

There is no "right" choice, its all subjective as far as the player goes.
I for one chose synthesis, and would also probably be able to choose destroy (at least i have several Shepards that would have chosen destroy)..... but control.... i dont know, its the only choice i would never pick, it just doesnt click with me.... well, they all dont click, but control just seems.... dull.

You die and yet somehow manage to control the reapers and make them leave after youre dead.... meh. Dull.... also hilarious to a degree when you consider you just managed to convince someone to put a bullet in their head because humanity wasnt ready for that kind of power >_>

[rachellouise]

TIM shoots himself because he is made to realize he's indoctrinated

[Bill Casey]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

Motivation is irrelevent...

[Iakus]

Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...

 When Legion was in contact with the mind of the Reaper on Rannoch, he describes the thoughts as immeasurable, incomprehensible.

www.youtube.com/watch

And Shepard, one human, is supposed to control all of them?  A more than likely scenerio would likely be along the lines of:


Diablo 2, Act 3

To quote TIM.

"Have a little faith."

ALso to quote TIM.

"I tried, Shepard"  ::BLAM!::

[AlexXIV]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

So if Hitler had better motivation what he did would have been ok. Sorry, had to.

Sorry but he can't save the Geth. He can give the galaxy a fresh start without Reapers, that's the destroy option. Saving the Geth is NOT selfless. They can be rebuilt afterwards, the starchild even tells you. What you are trying to save is your good standing with the Geth. Because right now they need to be thankful to you for helping. And if you destroy and rebuild them they don't remember that happening. Which is also not necessarily true because for the Geth memory is just data without emotional connection so they can just 'download' it from the archieves if they are rebuilt. However, these Geth are upgraded by Reapers anyway. Which is against their philosophy as Legion explained in ME2. Or are you trying to save Legion? However, it is not unselfish. Unselfish is to blow the Reapers out of the galaxy and give it a chance to evolve in freedom from Reapers.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

iakus wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...

 When Legion was in contact with the mind of the Reaper on Rannoch, he describes the thoughts as immeasurable, incomprehensible.

www.youtube.com/watch

And Shepard, one human, is supposed to control all of them?  A more than likely scenerio would likely be along the lines of:


Diablo 2, Act 3

To quote TIM.

"Have a little faith."

ALso to quote TIM.

"I tried, Shepard"  ::BLAM!::

I find your lack of faith in Shepard's resolve disturbing!

And I feel like quoting my Diablo 1 epilogue speech that has been altered to fit the control ending now! 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlexXIV wrote...

It's a bad choice because Shepard becomes a Reaper.

Yes, Shepard becomes a reaper, but Shepard becomes the capo di tutti capi of the Reapers, or the boss of the bosses. They do what Shepard tells them, and you can't undo what's been done in this cycle, but you can end it without causing any further damage.

All the choices are bad. You get to choose the least of the evils.

[Alibenbaba]

Lizardviking wrote...

To quote TIM.

"Have a little faith."

There is no faith, only Zool.

[Vox Draco]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

You are truly an optimist, Mr. Optimystic_X...

Yet maybe it doesn't matter what motivations you have, uploading your "soul" or whatever into a reaper-machine will still..use it against you? You know...the way to hell is paved with good intentions...

All that is clear about control is that everything is unclear, except that Shepard will die, hoping s/he did the right thing...

[rachellouise]

AlexXIV wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

So if Hitler had better motivation what he did would have been ok. Sorry, had to.

Sorry but he can't save the Geth. He can give the galaxy a fresh start without Reapers, that's the destroy option. Saving the Geth is NOT selfless. They can be rebuilt afterwards, the starchild even tells you. What you are trying to save is your good standing with the Geth. Because right now they need to be thankful to you for helping. And if you destroy and rebuild them they don't remember that happening. Which is also not necessarily true because for the Geth memory is just data without emotional connection so they can just 'download' it from the archieves if they are rebuilt. However, these Geth are upgraded by Reapers anyway. Which is against their philosophy as Legion explained in ME2. Or are you trying to save Legion? However, it is not unselfish. Unselfish is to blow the Reapers out of the galaxy and give it a chance to evolve in freedom from Reapers.

The hitler thing is not even the same thing. 

A similar argument would someone in the place of hitler, with the amount of control and power he held, do the same thing?


And no the catalyst doesn't say the geth can be built again. He says synthetic life. Not all synthetic life is the same. Once the geth are gone, they are gone.

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 08:43 .

[AlexXIV]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It's a bad choice because Shepard becomes a Reaper.

Yes, Shepard becomes a reaper, but Shepard becomes the capo di tutti capi of the Reapers, or the boss of the bosses. They do what Shepard tells them, and you can't undo what's been done in this cycle, but you can end it without causing any further damage.

All the choices are bad. You get to choose the least of the evils.

Which is destroy. You can't tell what happens to you if you become a reaper. For all we know it could change you to a point you come to the same conclusions and restart the cycles. In the destroy option you KNOW the Reapers are gone and not harming anyone anymore. The galaxy can evolve on it's own. And with the lessons of history become a better place for it.

[Bad King]

Control is fine by me- unlike destroy it doesn't bury earth with reaper corpses and turn it into a reaper graveyard.

[RMP _]

GlassElephant wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.

I assume your body dies but your consciousness continues to  exist on a different level, maybe inside the citadel or throughout the reapers...

Is Shepard still Shepard after "losing everything she has" too?  Does that include ethics and morals?  Seems kind of shady imo, but that goes for everything that comes out of Starbrat's mouth.

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

So if Hitler had better motivation what he did would have been ok. Sorry, had to.

Sorry but he can't save the Geth. He can give the galaxy a fresh start without Reapers, that's the destroy option. Saving the Geth is NOT selfless. They can be rebuilt afterwards, the starchild even tells you. What you are trying to save is your good standing with the Geth. Because right now they need to be thankful to you for helping. And if you destroy and rebuild them they don't remember that happening. Which is also not necessarily true because for the Geth memory is just data without emotional connection so they can just 'download' it from the archieves if they are rebuilt. However, these Geth are upgraded by Reapers anyway. Which is against their philosophy as Legion explained in ME2. Or are you trying to save Legion? However, it is not unselfish. Unselfish is to blow the Reapers out of the galaxy and give it a chance to evolve in freedom from Reapers.

The hitler thing is not even the same thing. 

A similar argument would someone in the place of hitler, with the amount of control and power he held, do the same thing?


And no he doesn't say the geth can be built again. He says synthetic life. Not all synthetic life is the same. Once the geth are gone, they are gone.

What I am saying is the motivation doesn't matter. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Doing the right thing is better than doing the wrong things in good intentions. So if you have to choose to end it or gamble with good intentions it is clear that one is the right thing and the other the wrong thing to do.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 mai 2012 - 08:47 .

[richard_rider]

Logical reasoning leads to the conclusion that controlling the reapers is impossible.

Shepard's motivations, while pure have no impact on the outcome, and while he is a strong willed individual, proof is to the contrary.

[AlexXIV]

RMP _ wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.

I assume your body dies but your consciousness continues to  exist on a different level, maybe inside the citadel or throughout the reapers...

Is Shepard still Shepard after "losing everything she has" too?  Does that include ethics and morals?  Seems kind of shady imo, but that goes for everything that comes out of Starbrat's mouth.

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Well but that's the point. Control option is a gamble, destroy is not.

[rachellouise]

AlexXIV wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.

I assume your body dies but your consciousness continues to  exist on a different level, maybe inside the citadel or throughout the reapers...

Is Shepard still Shepard after "losing everything she has" too?  Does that include ethics and morals?  Seems kind of shady imo, but that goes for everything that comes out of Starbrat's mouth.

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Well but that's the point. Control option is a gamble, destroy is not.

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

[Vox Draco]

RMP _ wrote...

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Indoctrinate...the inventors of indoctrination? With positive thinking? Interesting...I will let this stand for itself though...

[Hadeedak]

Eh, Destroy's kind of a gamble too. I think there's a case to be made for each ending being the 'best' ending.

Control has Shep doing the heroic sacrifice, but leaves the Citadel intact and... maybe damages the relays less. Assuming it works.

Destroy, well, boom, no more reapers and yay, Shep might live. With a trail of destruction.

Synthesis... is... synthesis. I may not really like it but it is a heroic sacrifice, blows the Citadel up, and everyone is part machine now.

[Reorte]

IF control works then it's arguably the best option. However the only circumstances I can see it working would be as a roundabout route to Destroy, by controlling all the Reapers straight into the nearest star (after getting them to do some relay repair work first).

[Hadeedak]

Vox Draco wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Indoctrinate...the inventors of indoctrination? With positive thinking? Interesting...I will let this stand for itself though...

Machines can be reprogrammed! Reapers with Shepard's values uploaded. At least, that's how I'm reading Control until the clarification hits.

Which in my Shep's case, would probably mean go far away and spend quality time trying to reverse engineer extinct species from their reaper shells.

[Vox Draco]

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

[RMP _]

Hadeedak wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Indoctrinate...the inventors of indoctrination? With positive thinking? Interesting...I will let this stand for itself though...

Machines can be reprogrammed! Reapers with Shepard's values uploaded. At least, that's how I'm reading Control until the clarification hits.

Which in my Shep's case, would probably mean go far away and spend quality time trying to reverse engineer extinct species from their reaper shells.

Yes, thanks, that's what I meant.

Modifié par RMP _, 04 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[Ieldra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It's a bad choice because Shepard becomes a Reaper.

Yes, Shepard becomes a reaper, but Shepard becomes the capo di tutti capi of the Reapers, or the boss of the bosses. They do what Shepard tells them, and you can't undo what's been done in this cycle, but you can end it without causing any further damage.

All the choices are bad. You get to choose the least of the evils.

Agreed to the former. But compared to the alternative - the continuance of the cycle - all choices are good. And it would be more correct to say Shepard becomes the Catalyst.