376 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.

I assume your body dies but your consciousness continues to  exist on a different level, maybe inside the citadel or throughout the reapers...

Is Shepard still Shepard after "losing everything she has" too?  Does that include ethics and morals?  Seems kind of shady imo, but that goes for everything that comes out of Starbrat's mouth.

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Well but that's the point. Control option is a gamble, destroy is not.

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

I hope they are wrong but that's not the point. Synthetics can be built in ANY ending. And what are you going to do? Restart the cycles to stop it? No, destroy ending is freedom because the galaxy can evolve without Reapers. Wherever it ends. Maybe it leads to the destruction, then that's what it is supposed to be. The sentient beings in the galaxy have it in their hands to shape their future, without some sort of overlord ... lording over them. I am not a control freak in real life either and believe that in the long rung we will get what we deserve. If synthetics and organics are bound to destroy each other then so be it. At the very least I don't let a race of ancient massmurderers tell me what I should do. My Shep told them that she will stop them, and I plan to keep the promise.

[alienatedflea]

DLClol wrote...

Still don't understand why the cataylst would even need to lie to Shepard at all, if his goal was to fool Shepard into the wrong choice why not just kill Shepard instead. Seems a lot easier

when did the starchild lie again?

[Ieldra]

Hadeedak wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Indoctrinate...the inventors of indoctrination? With positive thinking? Interesting...I will let this stand for itself though...

Machines can be reprogrammed! Reapers with Shepard's values uploaded. At least, that's how I'm reading Control until the clarification hits.

Which in my Shep's case, would probably mean go far away and spend quality time trying to reverse engineer extinct species from their reaper shells.

Ha, so I'm not the only one who had the idea that the harvested species might be reincarnated? After all, there are billions of organic minds in each Reaper (Legion about the nature of the Reapers in ME2). I'd say that's a compelling reason to keep the Reapers around.

And the uploading is nice, too - it was used in the Unofficial Epilogues.

[AlexXIV]

alienatedflea wrote...

DLClol wrote...

Still don't understand why the cataylst would even need to lie to Shepard at all, if his goal was to fool Shepard into the wrong choice why not just kill Shepard instead. Seems a lot easier

when did the starchild lie again?

Argueably ... from start to end.

[rachellouise]

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

[Hadeedak]

Well, it's not like there's enough clarity to know FOR SURE that in control or synthesis, the Reapers are going to stick around, constantly offering helpful/annoying advice. "Hey. Hey organic. Hey. Please do not disturb the keepers."

[Dot.Shadow]

Quite simply because you cannot be certain in the long run that you will not come to the conclusion that "all organic life must be harvested".

[AlexXIV]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Indoctrinate...the inventors of indoctrination? With positive thinking? Interesting...I will let this stand for itself though...

Machines can be reprogrammed! Reapers with Shepard's values uploaded. At least, that's how I'm reading Control until the clarification hits.

Which in my Shep's case, would probably mean go far away and spend quality time trying to reverse engineer extinct species from their reaper shells.

Ha, so I'm not the only one who had the idea that the harvested species might be reincarnated? After all, there are billions of organic minds in each Reaper (Legion about the nature of the Reapers in ME2). I'd say that's a compelling reason to keep the Reapers around.

And the uploading is nice, too - it was used in the Unofficial Epilogues.

I don't think minds live through the process of being turned into reaper soup. In the best case the genetic material is preserved. The memory is gone however. Also it is a forceful assimilation. That's nothing different than the Borg in Star Trek did.

[Vox Draco]

rachellouise wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

Okay, you play the catalysts game, I understand

[alienatedflea]

AlexXIV wrote...

Argueably ... from start to end.

what about?

[Thaa_solon]

Because all endings are stupid and doesn't follow the lore/story/theme?

Modifié par Thaa_solon, 04 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[Hadeedak]

I still think control is pretty much pulling what Legion did, but with a different 'code' (values instead of software upgrades).

Though I'm enough of a biologist to think racial memory is total BS, it's a pretty thought that each Reaper may be in some respect a racial memory as well as a mobile, shooty gene bank.

[alienatedflea]

rachellouise wrote...

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

In the case of the Geth, they did not wipe out the Quarians so your logic is false. 

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

And destroying the reapers may be the only chance to ever free the galaxy and allow every species their own evolution. Why try to control evolution. No faith in it? Do you think you or anyone controlling it is better? It actually scares me how people think that they are bigger than life. And even defend it as the good choice. There you need not wonder that nations feel fit to invade other nations and teach them how to do things right.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[rachellouise]

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

RMP _ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Because somehow Shepard controls the Reapers yet is dead. And considering how it's mentioned that the Reapers are hyper intelligent a single human being controlling them seems unlikely.

I assume your body dies but your consciousness continues to  exist on a different level, maybe inside the citadel or throughout the reapers...

Is Shepard still Shepard after "losing everything she has" too?  Does that include ethics and morals?  Seems kind of shady imo, but that goes for everything that comes out of Starbrat's mouth.

Maybe it's more vague. Instead of Shepard directly controlling them, he exerts some kind of positive influence on their way of thinking. Basically, indoctrination the other way for once. They might stop thinking their solution is the only way. That's just speculation of course, but so is thinking the control option will inevitably fail no matter what.

Well but that's the point. Control option is a gamble, destroy is not.

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

I hope they are wrong but that's not the point. Synthetics can be built in ANY ending. And what are you going to do? Restart the cycles to stop it? No, destroy ending is freedom because the galaxy can evolve without Reapers. Wherever it ends. Maybe it leads to the destruction, then that's what it is supposed to be. The sentient beings in the galaxy have it in their hands to shape their future, without some sort of overlord ... lording over them. I am not a control freak in real life either and believe that in the long rung we will get what we deserve. If synthetics and organics are bound to destroy each other then so be it. At the very least I don't let a race of ancient massmurderers tell me what I should do. My Shep told them that she will stop them, and I plan to keep the promise.

No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

[Hadeedak]

Vox Draco wrote...
Okay, you play the catalysts game, I understand

All of the endings ARE Shepard's game. It's just in how you read them. Since he offers Destroy easiest, that may even be the Catalyst's favorite. :happy:

[rachellouise]

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

And destroying the reapers may be the only chance to ever free the galaxy and allow every species their own evolution. Why try to control evolution. No faith in it? Do you think you or anyone controlling it is better? It actually scares me how people think that they are bigger than life. And even defend it as the good choice. There you need not wonder that nations feel fit to invade other nations and teach them how to do things right.

Again, controlling the reapers does not mean controlling  evolution, nor the galaxy 

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

And you just don't understand and I don't know how I can help you. Control is exactly the point of view of the Reapers. When they were created they were the solution. A means to control the galaxy so nothing bad can happen, out of fear. And that's exactly the same reasoning people use to justify control. If you think so you are not starting to think like a reaper, you think like one already. Control over freedom.

[rachellouise]

alienatedflea wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

In the case of the Geth, they did not wipe out the Quarians so your logic is false. 

Logic is not false. If the quarians had had been seen to capable of building the synthetics which would have wiped out organics, they would have been reaped. The synthetics they were warning of, and preventing from being built, have not yet been built.

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 09:10 .

[Hadeedak]

Agreed. You pretty much have to make assumptions as to what the reapers do or do not do, and how much interaction they have with the galaxy post ending. You can assume they stick around like a bossy grandma telling people their ideas are stupid and won't work and generally making a nuisance of themselves, or that they abscond off into dark space and do Shepard Approved Reaper Stuff (whatever it is reapers do when not trashing the galaxy).

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

And destroying the reapers may be the only chance to ever free the galaxy and allow every species their own evolution. Why try to control evolution. No faith in it? Do you think you or anyone controlling it is better? It actually scares me how people think that they are bigger than life. And even defend it as the good choice. There you need not wonder that nations feel fit to invade other nations and teach them how to do things right.

Again, controlling the reapers does not mean controlling  evolution, nor the galaxy 

And why then do you need to control the Reapers if you don't plan to control the galaxy or evolution. What are you doing once you are in control? Adventure through the galaxy with your merry fellowship of reapers? What is the point of controlling the reaper if not to do exactly what the reapers were made for to begin with? As a solution to a problem that may get out of control?

[rachellouise]

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

And you just don't understand and I don't know how I can help you. Control is exactly the point of view of the Reapers. When they were created they were the solution. A means to control the galaxy so nothing bad can happen, out of fear. And that's exactly the same reasoning people use to justify control. If you think so you are not starting to think like a reaper, you think like one already. Control over freedom.

No, you do not understand. Under shepards control, the reapers would not have to be feared, they would no longer be reaping species or civilizations, nor ending cycles.

[Gen Petitt]

Control = slavery = sin. Which means control is a sin!

[Hadeedak]

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

And you just don't understand and I don't know how I can help you. Control is exactly the point of view of the Reapers. When they were created they were the solution. A means to control the galaxy so nothing bad can happen, out of fear. And that's exactly the same reasoning people use to justify control. If you think so you are not starting to think like a reaper, you think like one already. Control over freedom.

See, that's not what I was thinking when I chose control for my canon Shepard. At all. What I was thinking is "Ok, I was expecting a heroic sacrifice.... Jee, I wish these were explained better. I don't like synthesis. At all. That sounds dumb. I am NOT throwing MY geth and EDI under the bus. I am NOT going to trash Legion's heroic sacrifice just to admit starboy is right and we need to kill the synthetics. I'll show him! ORGANIC DIES FOR SYNTHETICS, HOOOOOO!"

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

In the case of the Geth, they did not wipe out the Quarians so your logic is false. 

Logic is not false. If the quarians had had been seen to capable of building the synthetics which would have wiped out organics, they would have been reaped. The synthetics they were warning of, and preventing from being built, have not yet been built.

Assumption. Based on what? Logic? Nah. Based on what the catalyst told you. Who is a mixture of organic and synthetic which can be just as prejudical of other races than any race. They fear both, organic and synthetic because they are different. That's the reason for the cycles of destruction, to keep organics and synthetics down so they can pose no threat to the Reapers.