376 réponses à ce sujet

[Vox Draco]

rachellouise wrote...
No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

You know, one thing I find extremely funny about control to think is the over-optimistic viewpoint of having the Reapers as some kind of "Peacekeeper"army or using them to rebuild the galaxy...

I cannot see that. I can, somehow, think that a "true" Shepard simply commits genocide on the Reapers and takes them all to hell by flying them into the nearest sun, a popular argeument for control...

But using them? Funny...all I can see is the Reapers still around...the same Reapers responsible for the killing of millions of families, innocents, the destruction of whole worlds...does anyone really think this will all be forgotten just like...that? That the galaxy will happily come together and embrace the new saviors of the galaxy? Maybe..but...

Its hard to imagine for me...far more believable for me is to see another Reaper-war...because the galaxy will see the continued existence of the Reapers as a sword of Damocles haning over them. And Shepard? Even when it is revealed s/he is in control of the former scourge of the galaxy...I rather see the galaxy calling her/him a traitor than a saviour...maybe not at once, but over time, the more time passes, and the more the so-called "Freedom-Reapers" are meddling in the affairs of the races...

Not bound to become true...but...another reason why I think Control is just too...unclear...and open to a lot of evil thoughts on my side...My optimism lies with destroy...as I personally don't bleieve that much in this synth/orga.stuff anyway...

[Ieldra]

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...
No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

And you just don't understand and I don't know how I can help you. Control is exactly the point of view of the Reapers. When they were created they were the solution. A means to control the galaxy so nothing bad can happen, out of fear. And that's exactly the same reasoning people use to justify control. If you think so you are not starting to think like a reaper, you think like one already. Control over freedom.

If that freedom always results in extinction, there may a few people (many billions, I bet) who might prefer some kind of safeguard. It needn't be as horrible as the harvesting.

And may I remind you that we are not social atoms. A measure of order is required for a society to function. And that order needs to be enforced. Control just does it on a bigger scale,l with species and their survival and extinction in the balance.

As I said, my Control-Shepard would have a mostly hands-off approach to things, but still the Reapers can be used to contain problems should that become necessary.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[rachellouise]

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

And destroying the reapers may be the only chance to ever free the galaxy and allow every species their own evolution. Why try to control evolution. No faith in it? Do you think you or anyone controlling it is better? It actually scares me how people think that they are bigger than life. And even defend it as the good choice. There you need not wonder that nations feel fit to invade other nations and teach them how to do things right.

Again, controlling the reapers does not mean controlling  evolution, nor the galaxy 

And why then do you need to control the Reapers if you don't plan to control the galaxy or evolution. What are you doing once you are in control? Adventure through the galaxy with your merry fellowship of reapers? What is the point of controlling the reaper if not to do exactly what the reapers were made for to begin with? As a solution to a problem that may get out of control?

So, if you take over  something, you are going to run it exactly as the person before you? Shepard will define th 'point' of the reapers. Just as the catalyst was able to define a meaning/purpose for them

[Hadeedak]

AlexXIV wrote...
And why then do you need to control the Reapers if you don't plan to control the galaxy or evolution. What are you doing once you are in control? Adventure through the galaxy with your merry fellowship of reapers? What is the point of controlling the reaper if not to do exactly what the reapers were made for to begin with? As a solution to a problem that may get out of control?

Doing whatever the reapers do when not reaping, since they're all Shepard now... Or controlled by Shepard, who is the Catalyst. Or have Shepard's morals. Or something.

But even the most renegady Shepard never really demands to be the supreme galactic leader.

And I'm going to guess most Shepards would just want the reapers to GTFO and leave the galaxy alone, to one extent or another.

[rachellouise]

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...
No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

You know, one thing I find extremely funny about control to think is the over-optimistic viewpoint of having the Reapers as some kind of "Peacekeeper"army or using them to rebuild the galaxy...

I cannot see that. I can, somehow, think that a "true" Shepard simply commits genocide on the Reapers and takes them all to hell by flying them into the nearest sun, a popular argeument for control...

But using them? Funny...all I can see is the Reapers still around...the same Reapers responsible for the killing of millions of families, innocents, the destruction of whole worlds...does anyone really think this will all be forgotten just like...that? That the galaxy will happily come together and embrace the new saviors of the galaxy? Maybe..but...

Its hard to imagine for me...far more believable for me is to see another Reaper-war...because the galaxy will see the continued existence of the Reapers as a sword of Damocles haning over them. And Shepard? Even when it is revealed s/he is in control of the former scourge of the galaxy...I rather see the galaxy calling her/him a traitor than a saviour...maybe not at once, but over time, the more time passes, and the more the so-called "Freedom-Reapers" are meddling in the affairs of the races...

Not bound to become true...but...another reason why I think Control is just too...unclear...and open to a lot of evil thoughts on my side...My optimism lies with destroy...as I personally don't bleieve that much in this synth/orga.stuff anyway...

It would take time, but it would take time for the quarians and geth to trust each other, time to work on the feelings in place due to the genophage, time to realize that the rachni are not just creepy bugs

The reapers would not be involved in the galaxy, but a defense for if the catalysts prophecy of those synthetics comes true

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[Kalundume]

RMP _ wrote...

The whole red/blue color mix up, the theory is the catalyst is just trying to fool you (the player), but I think Bioware thinks the destroy option really is the renegade choice here.
I see control as a way to make peace, without the slaughter of the destroy option.

Morally speaking a "peace" with reapers is impossible (as we had not signed any "peace" with III reich germany or Japanese empire ... the only choice was an unconditional capitulation); the choice impossible with Reapers ... thus a need to exterminate them in one way or another.

Basically, to use the "real world" analogy, what you said would be comparable to use Wehrmaht as a "peacekeepers" force, kind of over-United Nations military force.

Modifié par Kalundume, 04 mai 2012 - 09:22 .

[DLClol]

alienatedflea wrote...

DLClol wrote...

Still don't understand why the cataylst would even need to lie to Shepard at all, if his goal was to fool Shepard into the wrong choice why not just kill Shepard instead. Seems a lot easier

when did the starchild lie again?

He didn't, thats the point of the post.

Bioware dosen't let you argue with him or even raise your voice. They intended for him to be telling the truth

If he was indeed lying that would mean he felt threatened or was trying to protect the reapers, if that was the case simply kill Shepard and continue on.

[AlexXIV]

Hadeedak wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

And you just don't understand and I don't know how I can help you. Control is exactly the point of view of the Reapers. When they were created they were the solution. A means to control the galaxy so nothing bad can happen, out of fear. And that's exactly the same reasoning people use to justify control. If you think so you are not starting to think like a reaper, you think like one already. Control over freedom.

See, that's not what I was thinking when I chose control for my canon Shepard. At all. What I was thinking is "Ok, I was expecting a heroic sacrifice.... Jee, I wish these were explained better. I don't like synthesis. At all. That sounds dumb. I am NOT throwing MY geth and EDI under the bus. I am NOT going to trash Legion's heroic sacrifice just to admit starboy is right and we need to kill the synthetics. I'll show him! ORGANIC DIES FOR SYNTHETICS, HOOOOOO!"

I don't like to sacrifice either the Geth nor EDI. But I have no choice. I cannot let the Reapes go or have their way or everything was for nothing. All sacrifices in vain. I think Legion, EDI and the Geth may find peace in knowing that the organics who survive don't forget their sacrifice and build new synthetics which they actually treat better and therefore forge a true peace. Geth are mostly the summary of their data. And if they download the data about their ancestors and about their role in the war against the Reapers a part of them can be restored. Even if EDI, Legion and the Geth get wiped out their legacy can survive in the historical archieves of the organics which they can add to their own eventually.

See, everyone dies, everyone forgets. That counts for organics. Not for Geth. But their loss is not higher than ours. Everyone loses everything eventually. What counts is the future. And we can make everything better once we got rid of the Reapers. I truely believe that. I for one don't need their solution or advice. Not after what they have done. I have seen with my own eyes what they are capable of and I don't want this kind of solution to be part of the future I fought for.

[Xellith]

rachellouise wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Destroy is a gamble, you're gambling that the Reapers and the catalyst were wrong about the synthetics they were preventing from being built. 

Depends on the nature of the game...

I play Sheaprd's game: "How can we make sure the Reapers won't meddle with this galaxy again and have teh Galaxy determine its own fate for good or worse..."?

What do you play? The Catalysts?

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

Are the Reapers Synthetics or are they Organics.  Your answer on this determines if you are trolling yourself or not.

[AlexXIV]

Hadeedak wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
And why then do you need to control the Reapers if you don't plan to control the galaxy or evolution. What are you doing once you are in control? Adventure through the galaxy with your merry fellowship of reapers? What is the point of controlling the reaper if not to do exactly what the reapers were made for to begin with? As a solution to a problem that may get out of control?

Doing whatever the reapers do when not reaping, since they're all Shepard now... Or controlled by Shepard, who is the Catalyst. Or have Shepard's morals. Or something.

But even the most renegady Shepard never really demands to be the supreme galactic leader.

And I'm going to guess most Shepards would just want the reapers to GTFO and leave the galaxy alone, to one extent or another.

I would make peace with the reapers to my terms. But it is either their terms or destroy them. So I destroy them.

In the worst case, by absorbing Shepard the reapers become smarter and more powerful and stay just as cruel as they always were. I am not going to risk that to be my Shepard's legacy for the galaxy.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 mai 2012 - 09:22 .

[Hadeedak]

I always saw Destroy as the very Catalyst solution. Maybe because it's easiest to get in most of my games. Don't get me wrong, I plan on pulling that trigger on a few of my Shepards, but just like love interests and genophage coping with, I'm not sticking with one ending! And like most examples, there's a case to be made for each.

In destroy, you kind of admit it NEEDS to be an organic vs synthetic war, and damnit, organics WIN. Kill Reapers, blow up Citadel, destroy EDI, destroy geth. Yeah, you're done with reapers forever, but at a cost.

[rachellouise]

I see reapers as synthetics, made using organics. Which means with my shepard, the number of reapers would never go up. She wouldn't sacrifice them, to make more

[AlexXIV]

Hadeedak wrote...

I always saw Destroy as the very Catalyst solution. Maybe because it's easiest to get in most of my games. Don't get me wrong, I plan on pulling that trigger on a few of my Shepards, but just like love interests and genophage coping with, I'm not sticking with one ending! And like most examples, there's a case to be made for each.

In destroy, you kind of admit it NEEDS to be an organic vs synthetic war, and damnit, organics WIN. Kill Reapers, blow up Citadel, destroy EDI, destroy geth. Yeah, you're done with reapers forever, but at a cost.

No, destroy is the only ending that allows for organics and synthetics to make peace. Synthesis is no peace, it is just a merge. They never have a choice, never make peace on their own terms. In control you keep the peace with force. In destroy organics are free, synthetics are rebuilt. And this time no Reapers will use anyone to start killing each other.

[Gen Petitt]

DLClol wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

DLClol wrote...
Still don't understand why the cataylst would even need to lie to Shepard at all, if his goal was to fool Shepard into the wrong choice why not just kill Shepard instead. Seems a lot easier

when did the starchild lie again?

He didn't, thats the point of the post.
Bioware dosen't let you argue with him or even raise your voice. They intended for him to be telling the truth
If he was indeed lying that would mean he felt threatened or was trying to protect the reapers, if that was the case simply kill Shepard and continue on.

Becuase he is a politician in disguise to openly attack Shep is not the wisest move politically so I blew him up why because I hate politicians

Modifié par Gen Petitt, 04 mai 2012 - 09:25 .

[Hadeedak]

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't like to sacrifice either the Geth nor EDI. But I have no choice. I cannot let the Reapes go or have their way or everything was for nothing. All sacrifices in vain. I think Legion, EDI and the Geth may find peace in knowing that the organics who survive don't forget their sacrifice and build new synthetics which they actually treat better and therefore forge a true peace. Geth are mostly the summary of their data. And if they download the data about their ancestors and about their role in the war against the Reapers a part of them can be restored. Even if EDI, Legion and the Geth get wiped out their legacy can survive in the historical archieves of the organics which they can add to their own eventually.

See, everyone dies, everyone forgets. That counts for organics. Not for Geth. But their loss is not higher than ours. Everyone loses everything eventually. What counts is the future. And we can make everything better once we got rid of the Reapers. I truely believe that. I for one don't need their solution or advice. Not after what they have done. I have seen with my own eyes what they are capable of and I don't want this kind of solution to be part of the future I fought for.

Well, that's part of the reason Control's my favorite. My Shepard's taken a few gambles to avoid leaving anyone behind, so this was perfectly in character. Take a chance, try to save everyone and the greatest galactic diversity.

Yeah. Control IS a bigger gamble than destroy. And it may or may not pay off. It's high risk, high reward.

[Hadeedak]

AlexXIV wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

I always saw Destroy as the very Catalyst solution. Maybe because it's easiest to get in most of my games. Don't get me wrong, I plan on pulling that trigger on a few of my Shepards, but just like love interests and genophage coping with, I'm not sticking with one ending! And like most examples, there's a case to be made for each.

In destroy, you kind of admit it NEEDS to be an organic vs synthetic war, and damnit, organics WIN. Kill Reapers, blow up Citadel, destroy EDI, destroy geth. Yeah, you're done with reapers forever, but at a cost.

No, destroy is the only ending that allows for organics and synthetics to make peace. Synthesis is no peace, it is just a merge. They never have a choice, never make peace on their own terms. In control you keep the peace with force. In destroy organics are free, synthetics are rebuilt. And this time no Reapers will use anyone to start killing each other.

In Destroy, you kill  the synthetics. That's not exactly peaceful. In synthesis, you are the synthetics. There's no reason to think you 'keep the peace with force' in control. Probably depends on the Shepard.

[RMP _]

alienatedflea wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

In the case of the Geth, they did not wipe out the Quarians so your logic is false. 

In the case of the Geth and Quarians, it's one book with a happy ending (though anything could happen 100 or 1000 years from now, but let's assume they live happily ever after).

But the catalyst is ageless from our perspective. To come up with his drastic solution, he's surely seen his chaos theory in action several times over the eons, somebody's created synthetics coming oh so close to wiping out organic life. Just because it hasn't happened in the current cycle with the Geth doesn't mean it won't ever happen with some other synthetics.

[AlexXIV]

rachellouise wrote...

I see reapers as synthetics, made using organics. Which means with my shepard, the number of reapers would never go up. She wouldn't sacrifice them, to make more

There are 3 kinds. Synthetics, organics and cyborgs. The Reapers are as alien to synthetics as they are to organics. They are just as distrustful to other kinds as we are. That's why I think their goal is to stay in charge. And that's why I can't trust the starchild. His agenda is cyborg, so he wants us to support his cyborg agenda. But I neither see cyborgs as the perfection of my destiny, nor as pinnacle of organic or synthetic evolution. That's only the Reaper's view, because that's what they are already. And I really can't say that their behaviour looks perfect in any way to me.

[AlexXIV]

RMP _ wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

There are no 'games'.
Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may be the only chance of survival for organics.

In the case of the Geth, they did not wipe out the Quarians so your logic is false. 

In the case of the Geth and Quarians, it's one book with a happy ending (though anything could happen 100 or 1000 years from now, but let's assume they live happily ever after).

But the catalyst is ageless from our perspective. To come up with his drastic solution, he's surely seen his chaos theory in action several times over the eons, somebody's created synthetics coming oh so close to wiping out organic life. Just because it hasn't happened in the current cycle with the Geth doesn't mean it won't ever happen with some other synthetics.

Well again, it depends what you believe. If you trust the catalyst and think he tells the truth, then yes. I don't do that though. I don't accept it's word on it and doom the galaxy based on just that. I really rather make my own mistakes than taking advice from someone like a Reaper.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 mai 2012 - 09:32 .

[RMP _]

Hadeedak wrote...

Agreed. You pretty much have to make assumptions as to what the reapers do or do not do, and how much interaction they have with the galaxy post ending. You can assume they stick around like a bossy grandma telling people their ideas are stupid and won't work and generally making a nuisance of themselves, or that they abscond off into dark space and do Shepard Approved Reaper Stuff (whatever it is reapers do when not trashing the galaxy).

Ha, nice. Yup, nobody is saying the 'controlled' reapers need to hang around our part of space and help with re-construction projects.

[Hadeedak]

As usual with the endings, more information would really be nice. But I don't think ANY of them are 'bad' and you could make an argument for each off the three being the 'best.'

[rachellouise]

I'm going to have a renegade shepard choose control, and impose a sun tax xd

[AlexXIV]

Hadeedak wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

I always saw Destroy as the very Catalyst solution. Maybe because it's easiest to get in most of my games. Don't get me wrong, I plan on pulling that trigger on a few of my Shepards, but just like love interests and genophage coping with, I'm not sticking with one ending! And like most examples, there's a case to be made for each.

In destroy, you kind of admit it NEEDS to be an organic vs synthetic war, and damnit, organics WIN. Kill Reapers, blow up Citadel, destroy EDI, destroy geth. Yeah, you're done with reapers forever, but at a cost.

No, destroy is the only ending that allows for organics and synthetics to make peace. Synthesis is no peace, it is just a merge. They never have a choice, never make peace on their own terms. In control you keep the peace with force. In destroy organics are free, synthetics are rebuilt. And this time no Reapers will use anyone to start killing each other.

In Destroy, you kill  the synthetics. That's not exactly peaceful. In synthesis, you are the synthetics. There's no reason to think you 'keep the peace with force' in control. Probably depends on the Shepard.

Depends what you consider force. Changing an individual's DNA without consent is by definition pretty much forced. You just assume you can make this choice for everyone. Again, that's exactly how Reapers think. They never asked anyone of they are ok with the cycles. They didn't even inform anyone. They don't care about such minor things as free will or respect. They only see the result, any means are justified. If you are not like that then you cannot choose synthesis. You are not god, don't try to play god. You don't kill the synthetics. You kill the Reapers. That the synthetics die is firstly just the claim of the Reaper boss which may or may not be true, and also it is the side effect. The synthetics are not my enemy, they die because we have to sacrifice to beat the Reapers. That was clear from start. I would also have sacrificed the Quarian fleet or the Salarians etc. And now I should not sacrifice the Geth because what ... because sacrifices are bad?

[Hadeedak]

rachellouise wrote...

I'm going to have a renegade shepard choose control, and impose a sun tax xd

Win.

[Thaa_solon]

Vox Draco wrote...

rachellouise wrote...
No, not end the cycle, use the reapers as an army. The galaxy can evolve with the reapers too, just because you can control the reapers, doesn't mean they would be used to control the galaxy. Shepard would be stopping them from ending cycles, shepard wouldn't be thinking, 'oh well, let them wipe themselves all out'

You know, one thing I find extremely funny about control to think is the over-optimistic viewpoint of having the Reapers as some kind of "Peacekeeper"army or using them to rebuild the galaxy...

I cannot see that. I can, somehow, think that a "true" Shepard simply commits genocide on the Reapers and takes them all to hell by flying them into the nearest sun, a popular argeument for control...

But using them? Funny...all I can see is the Reapers still around...the same Reapers responsible for the killing of millions of families, innocents, the destruction of whole worlds...does anyone really think this will all be forgotten just like...that? That the galaxy will happily come together and embrace the new saviors of the galaxy? Maybe..but...

Its hard to imagine for me...far more believable for me is to see another Reaper-war...because the galaxy will see the continued existence of the Reapers as a sword of Damocles haning over them. And Shepard? Even when it is revealed s/he is in control of the former scourge of the galaxy...I rather see the galaxy calling her/him a traitor than a saviour...maybe not at once, but over time, the more time passes, and the more the so-called "Freedom-Reapers" are meddling in the affairs of the races...

Not bound to become true...but...another reason why I think Control is just too...unclear...and open to a lot of evil thoughts on my side...My optimism lies with destroy...as I personally don't bleieve that much in this synth/orga.stuff anyway...

I've read all this and the only thing i could imagine was www.youtube.com/watch