376 réponses à ce sujet

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Vox Draco wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Well, that doesn't make any sense. You actually see the reapers get hit by the blue beam and take off. You see the whole fleet obey you. Shephard doesn't have the option of turning their weapons. Also, reaper indoctrination works by nanites n subsonic signals that affect the human mind. ie the physical form of a mind. Once Shephard is in control they can't touch him. Its also implied that the catalyst lives within all reapers and the citadel. Once shephard replaces its hive mind, effectively he becomes the reapers.

Personally I think control is the best ending since you leave free will alone and it feels most like an actual self-sacrifice. Renegade was just WTF since the crucible randomly explodes doing what it was supposed to do n you walk into the blast so its not clear shep knew would happen.

Well..first of all: How can your Shepard base his/her decision on an ending-sequence he/she never has seen? And whre exactly are they flying anyway? Into the next sun? I sure hope so 

And even when you take this knowledge in consideration (which not makes sense when your Shepard stands up there wondering what is the right thing to do): you say it yourself: Shepard becomes the Reapers? Shepard sacrifices her life for the idea supported by the likes of TIM, by the information received by a mass-murdering AI and based upon wishful thinking it will turn out all good. If this is paragon...well...okay...

Again: Shepard becomes the Reapers? This..does really sound like a good thing to you? I don't want to sound offensive, and apologize in before but: Sometimes I think Shepard REALLY deserves better fans...I needed to write this, as it really makes me sad sometimes to read how easy it is for so many to just kill Shepard off for, as I see it, a big questionmark...

Because the thing brings you up when it could have left you to die. So you don't really have any reason to doubt him, plus, he controls the citadel lift, he doesn't control the crucible itself; hence why you can blow the reapers up n he can't do anything. So the ball is in Shpehards court and the thing is trying to sway your opinion via a hologram.

Into dark space. Then Shep can live, there is no hint that Shep would use the fleet for bad purposes. Tim would have used them to destroy all life; you are not TIM hence that judgement ain't relevent. Again, we see it turn out good because Shep takes over the reapers n flies away they don't regain control or Shep go crazy or anything like that.

How is that not a good thing? You make the reapers good. You become the reapers. You deactivate all husks n leave the other races to their own devices; which is the right thing to do on principle since the reapers were wrong about the inevitable conflict syn/org. There is not even an ounce of dark in the final portrayel of control. It is 100% pure speculation that control would turn out bad.  

I did not want Shep to die. Nobody wants the hero to die. Unless you do a lot of things Shep dies every time. The point past then is to make sure Shep dies for something the player thinks is worth dying for.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

We've seen organics create synthetics called the Geth. Now some have seen the geth evolve and become true AI. Bear in mind that the Geth have never been in the overall plans of the reapers and have been slated for extinction after it was all done anyway. So with the AI reapers it may just be "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Who knows how long the peace will last? Will they decide they're superior to all organics and decide one day that organics are a pestilence on the galaxy? You don't know that. What are you going to do then?

You will do your best to unite the galaxy once again and wipe out the Geth. I'm not speaking as Shepard here. Just as a representative of any race so threatened.

No system can exist without checks and balances. Even with destroy you don't choose freedom. You condemn the Sword fleet from Palaven and Rannoch to resort to Donner Party tactics to get home. It's going to take them years. The ships need repairs, and this means dry dock and where? On earth? Parts need to be made. You've got a massive clean up on Earth and in your home systems underway. Trade is at a standstill. Will allies start shooting at each other over food?

But I've seen Control = Slavery = Sin = evil. Slavery? Shepard becomes the boss of the bosses reaper. Each ship has the racial memories of the harvested race. Starbrat had them doing horrible things. Shepard might use them differently. They leave. The mass relays still work. You get to go home. You get to see if your precious peace with the Geth really does work out. If it doesn't? You've got a problem to deal with, and Shepard just gave you a chance to deal with it instead of finishing the job of wiping out organic life.

If in 50,000 yrs, there's no organic life left? Well, then there's no more reaping is there? So that's essentially what control gave you: 50,000 yrs to figure out if your advanced civilizations can manage not to create synthetic life that wipes out organic life.

Or would you rather have a galactic dark age, which essentially returns things to about the late 21st century. You may have FTL, but I can guarantee you that space programs are not going to be the highest priority for your homeworlds with any of the options. Trade will just be easier with the mass relays in working order. So Control is the better option.

[Xellith]

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe
everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may
be the only chance of survival for organics.

rachellouise wrote...

I see reapers as synthetics, made using organics. Which means with my shepard, the number of reapers would never go up. She wouldn't sacrifice them, to make more

The catalyst said that eventually all synthetics will want to wipe out organic life completely.  You just said that the reapers are synthetics.  Explain to me why the reapers have not wiped out all organic life completely since they have existed for billions of years.

The reapers are not the ones who are trying to destroy all organics, under the catalyst they were preventing organics from getting too advanced/capable of building them

The catalyst said that ultimately all synthetics will want to wipe out organics completely.  So his statement about synthetics ultimately wiping out all organic life has been proven wrong for the last few billion years. 

Machines surpassed organics long ago - even Javik said this.  You are basically wanting an advanced AI synthetic to stop organics from making lesser synthetics in case they become advanced organics?

Your logic on this matter is flawed.

My logic is not flawed. all this time they have been slowing the advancement of organics. However the organics have advanced sufficiently despite this, which is why the catalyst says his solution will no longer work.

Listen to yourself.  The catalyst said that eventually an advanced synthetic will want to wipe out all organic life completely. 

The reapers ARE synthetics.  Why have they not wiped out all organic life completely?  I thought that synthetics were destined to wipe out all organic life completely?  The reapers ARE synthetics right?  And they are the most advanced race to have ever existed that we are aware of.  Billions of years.  Maybe hundreds of thousands of reaps.  Trillions upon trillions of lives lost over the course of years.

Why arnt you trying to destroy the reapers?  Arnt they going to wipe out all organic life eventually?  Isnt that what synthetics do?  You are arguing that the reapers are slowing the advancement of organics so they dont make a race that will become like the reapers that will kill everyone because eventually all synthetics WILL kill organic life completely.

You dont see the problem with this line of thinking?

I'll simplify it.  You want the reapers to stop organics making a race that over billions of years will become the reapers.

Again. The reapers are not the ones trying to wipe out all organic life.

Not 'eventually, these synthetics will  get annoyed by organic nagging, and destroy you', if that were the case, wouldn't the catalyst also be targeting the synthetics that had already been built? He didn't target them, because they were not the threat.

But 'eventually organics will build synthetics that will wipe them out'.

Why would anyone try to stop, or slow someone down? To slow/prevent them from getting to their destination.
The organics were not at the stage where these synthetics were able to be built.

So, yes, I will listen to my interpretation of the story. Thank you

The reapers arnt trying to wipe out all organic life?  Why not?  I thought that was the argument the catalyst made.  Eventually synthetics will completely wipe out organic life to paraphrase.  You are completely missing the point.  The reapers arnt wiping out all organic life completely.  Hence the catalysts argument that synthetics will ultimately want to wipe out all organic life is completely flawed.

You are arguing for the idea that eventually all synthetics will wipe out all organic life... cept the reapers who ARE synthetics but they havent wiped out all organic life.

Every time you argue that the reapers are not wiping out all organic life - you are fighting your own arugment.

You want us all to believe this:
Synthetics - WILL ultimately destroy ALL organic life in the galaxy.
Reapers - Synthetics who kill ONLY advanced races.
Organics - WILL ultimately create synthetics.

Answer me this.  Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy.  Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics.

Explain because I think you are confusing yourself.

Modifié par Xellith, 04 mai 2012 - 10:35 .

[Mass effect 2 forever]

U7tra wrote...

.

Background: There is 5 solid years of 1-for-1 evidence that shows every time someone is manipulated into believing they can control/use/work with the Reapers, they are being indoctrinated and fooled, and they die/fail because of it.

Not sometimes, not usually... every. Single. Time.

Irrelevent. Once you link the crucible to the catalyst it is a piece of reaper tech and the ghost presents all reasons. He also goes out of his way to point to synthesis. If anything, any of those could have been him trying to manipulate you into screwing up. Even if you take destruction, that still means theres no more 'risk' to it than synthesis. 

[HunLevente]

M25105 wrote...

Here is a gun

https://encrypted-tb...VXJHeXM6bjh0Mwk

Put it against your temple and pull the trigger. Do that and you'll be able to control all of mankind!

What? You don't trust me? Why would I lie to you?


That's basically what Casper is saying to you.

With the very exception that the Reapers REALLY LEAVE. So in the end. It isn't worse then destroying them and the GETh and EDI along.

I choosed to control, because I could not bear the sin of destroying the Geth who I just allied with the quarians neither could I kill EDI who just became a real living creature.

[Allan Schumacher]

Answer me this. Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy. Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics.

Does the Catalyst state a timeline on when all organic life will be destroyed.

[Xellith]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

U7tra wrote...

.

Background: There is 5 solid years of 1-for-1 evidence that shows every time someone is manipulated into believing they can control/use/work with the Reapers, they are being indoctrinated and fooled, and they die/fail because of it.

Not sometimes, not usually... every. Single. Time.

Irrelevent. Once you link the crucible to the catalyst it is a piece of reaper tech and the ghost presents all reasons. He also goes out of his way to point to synthesis. If anything, any of those could have been him trying to manipulate you into screwing up. Even if you take destruction, that still means theres no more 'risk' to it than synthesis. 

I'd rather start shooting something than electrocute myself to death or dive headfirst off a tall bridge into a beam of light that will disintergrate me.

[Xellith]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Answer me this. Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy. Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics.

Does the Catalyst state a timeline on when all organic life will be destroyed.

He doesnt state a timeline, however that is asinine.  That would just fall back onto the question of "Why havent the reapers destroyed themselves?" (or a myriad of other questions), since the catalyst is so sure that eventually synthetics will want to wipe out organics completely. 

By the catalysts argument alone - the only course of action is to destroy them:
Destroy them because they are "ultimately destined" to wipe out all organic life - if you believe that to be true.
Destroy them because they are wiping out yours and other existing civilisations if you dont believe  that to be true.

No matter the argument made - the only option is to not allow the reapers to exist.  If you believe him then fine - destroy them.  If you do not believe him then fine - destroy them.

Modifié par Xellith, 04 mai 2012 - 11:14 .

[rachellouise]

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Organics will advance enough to build synthetics, which will wipe
everything out. That  is either right, or wrong. Saving the reapers may
be the only chance of survival for organics.

rachellouise wrote...

I see reapers as synthetics, made using organics. Which means with my shepard, the number of reapers would never go up. She wouldn't sacrifice them, to make more

The catalyst said that eventually all synthetics will want to wipe out organic life completely.  You just said that the reapers are synthetics.  Explain to me why the reapers have not wiped out all organic life completely since they have existed for billions of years.

The reapers are not the ones who are trying to destroy all organics, under the catalyst they were preventing organics from getting too advanced/capable of building them

The catalyst said that ultimately all synthetics will want to wipe out organics completely.  So his statement about synthetics ultimately wiping out all organic life has been proven wrong for the last few billion years. 

Machines surpassed organics long ago - even Javik said this.  You are basically wanting an advanced AI synthetic to stop organics from making lesser synthetics in case they become advanced organics?

Your logic on this matter is flawed.

My logic is not flawed. all this time they have been slowing the advancement of organics. However the organics have advanced sufficiently despite this, which is why the catalyst says his solution will no longer work.

Listen to yourself.  The catalyst said that eventually an advanced synthetic will want to wipe out all organic life completely. 

The reapers ARE synthetics.  Why have they not wiped out all organic life completely?  I thought that synthetics were destined to wipe out all organic life completely?  The reapers ARE synthetics right?  And they are the most advanced race to have ever existed that we are aware of.  Billions of years.  Maybe hundreds of thousands of reaps.  Trillions upon trillions of lives lost over the course of years.

Why arnt you trying to destroy the reapers?  Arnt they going to wipe out all organic life eventually?  Isnt that what synthetics do?  You are arguing that the reapers are slowing the advancement of organics so they dont make a race that will become like the reapers that will kill everyone because eventually all synthetics WILL kill organic life completely.

You dont see the problem with this line of thinking?

I'll simplify it.  You want the reapers to stop organics making a race that over billions of years will become the reapers.

Again. The reapers are not the ones trying to wipe out all organic life.

Not 'eventually, these synthetics will  get annoyed by organic nagging, and destroy you', if that were the case, wouldn't the catalyst also be targeting the synthetics that had already been built? He didn't target them, because they were not the threat.

But 'eventually organics will build synthetics that will wipe them out'.

Why would anyone try to stop, or slow someone down? To slow/prevent them from getting to their destination.
The organics were not at the stage where these synthetics were able to be built.

So, yes, I will listen to my interpretation of the story. Thank you

The reapers arnt trying to wipe out all organic life?  Why not?  I thought that was the argument the catalyst made.  Eventually synthetics will completely wipe out organic life to paraphrase.  You are completely missing the point.  The reapers arnt wiping out all organic life completely.  Hence the catalysts argument that synthetics will ultimately want to wipe out all organic life is completely flawed.

You are arguing for the idea that eventually all synthetics will wipe out all organic life... cept the reapers who ARE synthetics but they havent wiped out all organic life.

Every time you argue that the reapers are not wiping out all organic life - you are fighting your own arugment.

You want us all to believe this:
Synthetics - WILL ultimately destroy ALL organic life in the galaxy.
Reapers - Synthetics who kill ONLY advanced races.
Organics - WILL ultimately create synthetics.

Answer me this.  Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy.  Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics.

Explain because I think you are confusing yourself.

No you are mis-reading, or intentionallyy trying to twist my words in order to try and 'win'.

I have put it very clearly.

The synthetics which are to wipe out all life, have not been built yet. Right?

The catalyst and reapers have been harvesting each 50k years to slow advancement. right?

I'm not saying "after xxx years of existing, these synthetics are going to decide to destroy you", but organics will get to the stage where they are able to , and will, build something that they will have no chance against. Clear?

That stage is what the catalyst has been stalling. The synthetics he is warning against have yet to be built.

Modifié par rachellouise, 04 mai 2012 - 10:44 .

[Vox Draco]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Into dark space. Then Shep can live, there is no hint that Shep would use the fleet for bad purposes. Tim would have used them to destroy all life; you are not TIM hence that judgement ain't relevent. Again, we see it turn out good because Shep takes over the reapers n flies away they don't regain control or Shep go crazy or anything like that.

How is that not a good thing? You make the reapers good. You become the reapers. You deactivate all husks n leave the other races to their own devices; which is the right thing to do on principle since the reapers were wrong about the inevitable conflict syn/org. There is not even an ounce of dark in the final portrayel of control. It is 100% pure speculation that control would turn out bad.  

I did not want Shep to die. Nobody wants the hero to die. Unless you do a lot of things Shep dies every time. The point past then is to make sure Shep dies for something the player thinks is worth dying for.

All I said concerning this I have already wrote so many times, I am tired of it by no, and its getting late. As I said also: There will be no winner in this argument anyway. You have your points, I have mine.

You say all negative points on Control are 100% pure speculation, I say the positive ones are also. The only thing I am sure about control is Shepard is dead. What comes after you can make up in your head as you please, this is what Bioware wanted anyway.

But to your last point: I wholeheartily believe neither control nor synthesis are worth Shepard dying. I do not see it as a meaningful sacrifice but merely suicide, based upon the information we receive and the one that is giving these information. All I base my decison on is the past experience with the Reapers, and they are NOT pleasant enough to want them around any longer in this galaxy....If Bioware forces my Shepard to play God (which I hate anyway), than a veangeful one, and one that allows the galaxy to determine its own fate...

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Xellith wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

U7tra wrote...

.

Background: There is 5 solid years of 1-for-1 evidence that shows every time someone is manipulated into believing they can control/use/work with the Reapers, they are being indoctrinated and fooled, and they die/fail because of it.

Not sometimes, not usually... every. Single. Time.

Irrelevent. Once you link the crucible to the catalyst it is a piece of reaper tech and the ghost presents all reasons. He also goes out of his way to point to synthesis. If anything, any of those could have been him trying to manipulate you into screwing up. Even if you take destruction, that still means theres no more 'risk' to it than synthesis. 

Look, a lot of posters seem to be under the impression that you were at risk or that you could pick 'a wrong ending'. That just isn't the case, Shephard has never been indoctrinated n has resisted all efforts. More to the point, at the end, the game would never put you in that kind of danger on purpose. It would be a bold thing to do but suspense of belief ends, usually they give some indication when you are under threat and the scene is set up specifically to make you feel not threatened or decieved by the catalyst. Basically nobody would have expected Bioware to trick you at what clearly was the very end. (Hes wrong IMO but hes not lying)

I'd rather start shooting something than electrocute myself to death or dive headfirst off a tall bridge into a beam of light that will disintergrate me.

[HunLevente]

Navasha wrote...

Here's another point.... based on the whole... synthetics rebel against their creators.

The whole reason syntheics rebel is because the creator eventually tries to destroy them. The reapers never rebel against the catalyst because their goals are always in alignment.

For those that believe you can simply seize control of the reapers and then order them into the sun... Guess what... your goals are no longer in alignment with the reapers. The reapers rebel against you, the new catalyst.

You could argue that picking control places Shepard in an eternal prison where she is forced to watch the cycles unfold time and time again throughout eternity. Sure, she can "control" them as long as she never tries to give them an order that conflicts with their very nature.

And s/he did. The Reapers left. YOu could say that they will be back soon. But the destroy option seemingly turns them off. What's the insurance they won't be activated again?

All endings has its pros and contras for me. Noone knows if they have any long term affects.

[crimzontearz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...Answer me this. Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy. Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics. Does the Catalyst state a timeline on when all organic life will be destroyed.

you are doing what in Italy we refer to as climbing mirrors

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Vox Draco wrote...

You say all negative points on Control are 100% pure speculation, I say the positive ones are also.

If Bioware forces my Shepard to play God (which I hate anyway), ...

 So, that means Biowares positive depiction of the reapers flying off, turning blue as your energy fills them is meant to decieve you and isn't just simply meant to be what is shown? I just don't know why you would make such a cynical interpretation of whats pretty clear cut. 

Shephard has always played god. You've decided if the Krogan get the genophage, you've chosen when people you love have died, you've exterminated whole species and sentence millions to die. You might as a player go on a power-trip but the character doesn't and really whats the point of playing god if you accept a half-life. I mean, its like the Emperor in 40k technically becoming an all seeing deity who could interact with his subjects by being put on the astronomicon/Golden Throne but hes a corpse in eternal agony n incapable of communication. 


Yes.  I just compared Commander Shephard to THE GOD EMPERAR. Dues Imperator Shephard!

Modifié par Mass effect 2 forever, 04 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[20x6]

You could also argue that destroying the reapers is the bad thing.
Their genocide is calculated and there is always life left to flourish when they are done.

When people say, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", I disagree.
If people said, "the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many", I disagree.

In the natural order of things, "the needy" aren't supposed to survive.  In the ME universe, the reapers make sure of that and restore the balance.

[Arivael]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Arivael wrote...

The Cataylst itself tells you that "you will lose everything you have" by taking control of the Reapers, that right there is reason enought to rule the choice out as for all you know that includes your decision to stop the cycle. Control may look like the best option on the surface but it is the one that is going to come back and bite you in the end. Be it in 1, 100, 1000, 10,000 years time it will come back to bite you.

He means losing your body, along with the fact that Shephard becomes something incomprehensibly different than he was before. A normal person going to a machine hive mind super AI is huge difference. But it clearly does not change shephards morals or choices or his 'soul' since you see the machines go blue n leave Earth. Whether that means Shep could communicate once hes in the thing is debatable n maybe the extended cut might let you do that, you appear in starchild ghost form

Using knowlage you would not have when you make the decision does not help your argument.

Now let me exsplain the meaning of the word everything, it means EVERYTHING, mind, body and soul, you say that because you see the reapers stop and fly away AFTER you make this choice that it must not of change you decision to stop the Reapers YET it could still result in whatever you are now changing you mind again later and starting again, and what happens to Starbrat, do you control him aswell, merge with him, replace him? You have know idea what will happen with Control you are being asked to take a leap of faith based on infomation provided by the being that is;
1. Responsiable for the whole situation in the first place
2. Is either the most incompatent liar ever or most inconcistant being in the galaxy based on what and how it gives you this infomation.

Modifié par Arivael, 04 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[xsdob]

rachellouise wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

To Quote Paragon Shepard.

"You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use."
"If we destroy the Reapers, this ends today. But if you can't control them..."
"Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?"

The difference is motivation. TIM wanted to control them to ensure human dominance ("against the Reapers and beyond.")

Shepard would control them to (a) save the Geth and ( not change the galaxy against their will, not for any power he would gain. That selfless motivation would give him the mental fortitude that TIM lacked.

So if Hitler had better motivation what he did would have been ok. Sorry, had to.

Sorry but he can't save the Geth. He can give the galaxy a fresh start without Reapers, that's the destroy option. Saving the Geth is NOT selfless. They can be rebuilt afterwards, the starchild even tells you. What you are trying to save is your good standing with the Geth. Because right now they need to be thankful to you for helping. And if you destroy and rebuild them they don't remember that happening. Which is also not necessarily true because for the Geth memory is just data without emotional connection so they can just 'download' it from the archieves if they are rebuilt. However, these Geth are upgraded by Reapers anyway. Which is against their philosophy as Legion explained in ME2. Or are you trying to save Legion? However, it is not unselfish. Unselfish is to blow the Reapers out of the galaxy and give it a chance to evolve in freedom from Reapers.

The hitler thing is not even the same thing. 

A similar argument would someone in the place of hitler, with the amount of control and power he held, do the same thing?


And no the catalyst doesn't say the geth can be built again. He says synthetic life. Not all synthetic life is the same. Once the geth are gone, they are gone.

The united states rounded up the japanese citiznes during world war 2, bombed civillian cities and killed millions of people, and seized territory illegally just like hitler did, therefore hitler is america.

[Vox Draco]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
 So, that means Biowares positive depiction of the reapers flying off, turning blue as your energy fills them is meant to decieve you and isn't just simply meant to be what is shown? I just don't know why you would make such a cynical interpretation of whats pretty clear cut. 

Shephard has always played god. You've decided if the Krogan get the genophage, you've chosen when people you love have died, you've exterminated whole species and sentence millions to die. You might as a player go on a power-trip but the character doesn't and really whats the point of playing god if you accept a half-life. I mean, its like the Emperor in 40k technically becoming an all seeing deity who could interact with his subjects by being put on the astronomicon/Golden Throne but hes a corpse in eternal agony n incapable of communication. 

*sigh* cynical vs. naive? Let's not get offensive on each other..though...cynical as I see it is simply another word for "realistic"..but that's cynical again...

Oh...and red/green/blue are ALL positive depictions of the choices being made, the negative stuff is made up in our heads. The stuff with god I didn't really understand, but I'll leave it at that...

Edit: But a little sidenote as far as this God-Emperor is concerned. My knowledge of Warhammer is...basic...but as I see it: A corpse in agony...controlling vast and powerful forces of military...only to what? Ensure the human race continued existence by all means...the regime that the God-Emperor has created is fascist to the extreme, and values no individual life. Planets are eradicated without mercy, for the supposed "Greater Good"...

Yes, in many ways...I am afraid something like this could happend to Shepard too. I simply don't like this idea. It rubs me the wrong wa entirely. But before this discussion heads the wrong way: This is just how I see things.... 

Modifié par Vox Draco, 04 mai 2012 - 11:07 .

[Allan Schumacher]

crimzontearz wrote...
you are doing what in Italy we refer to as climbing mirrors

I am not from Italy so the saying is lost on me.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Arivael wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Arivael wrote...

The Cataylst itself tells you that "you will lose everything you have" by taking control of the Reapers, that right there is reason enought to rule the choice out as for all you know that includes your decision to stop the cycle. Control may look like the best option on the surface but it is the one that is going to come back and bite you in the end. Be it in 1, 100, 1000, 10,000 years time it will come back to bite you.

He means losing your body, along with the fact that Shephard becomes something incomprehensibly different than he was before. A normal person going to a machine hive mind super AI is huge difference. But it clearly does not change shephards morals or choices or his 'soul' since you see the machines go blue n leave Earth. Whether that means Shep could communicate once hes in the thing is debatable n maybe the extended cut might let you do that, you appear in starchild ghost form

Using knowlage you would not have when you make the decision does not help your argument.

Now let me exsplain the meaning of the word everything, it means EVERYTHING, mind, body and soul, you say that because you see the reapers stop and fly away AFTER you make this choice that it must not of change you decision to stop the Reapers YET it could still result in whatever you are now changing you mind again later and starting again, and what happens to Starbrat, do you control him aswell, merge with him, replace him? You have know idea what will happen with Control you are being asked to take a leap of faith based on infomation provided by the being that is;
1. Responsiable for the whole situation in the first place
2. Is either the most incompatent liar ever or most inconcistant being in the galaxy based on what and how it gives you this infomation.

We are talking about the consequences of the action. NOT if Shpehard would choose something if we were RPG in his mind on our first playthrough. That is not whats under discussion.

Everything is a vague concept, clearly Shephard has not lost his soul otherwise there would have been nothing to influence the reapers. We know that no other power, or other reaper was able to surpass the starchild; its control was absoltue. Once the the catalyst lets Shephard surpass the starchild then in effect Shephard can never be convinced to turn. Also, you're bein deeply cynical that Shephard doesn't have the strength of will or would be too weak to resist the reapers. If we take cynical views of the other endings then they aren't good either. Synthesis there are still reapers who will turn once the peace doesn't last. Destruction means no reapers to stop singularity apocalypse. Control is no different.

As my femshep would tell you 'The Ladies not for turning.'

[Eclipse merc]

There's no reason to believe the space child is telling the truth...

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Eclipse merc wrote...

There's no reason to believe the space child is telling the truth...

Consequences.  Consequences.  Not which one you would pick in the situation. Two very different things.

[MegaSovereign]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We've seen organics create synthetics called the Geth. Now some have seen the geth evolve and become true AI. Bear in mind that the Geth have never been in the overall plans of the reapers and have been slated for extinction after it was all done anyway. So with the AI reapers it may just be "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Who knows how long the peace will last? Will they decide they're superior to all organics and decide one day that organics are a pestilence on the galaxy? You don't know that. What are you going to do then?

You will do your best to unite the galaxy once again and wipe out the Geth. I'm not speaking as Shepard here. Just as a representative of any race so threatened.

No system can exist without checks and balances. Even with destroy you don't choose freedom. You condemn the Sword fleet from Palaven and Rannoch to resort to Donner Party tactics to get home. It's going to take them years. The ships need repairs, and this means dry dock and where? On earth? Parts need to be made. You've got a massive clean up on Earth and in your home systems underway. Trade is at a standstill. Will allies start shooting at each other over food?

But I've seen Control = Slavery = Sin = evil. Slavery? Shepard becomes the boss of the bosses reaper. Each ship has the racial memories of the harvested race. Starbrat had them doing horrible things. Shepard might use them differently. They leave. The mass relays still work. You get to go home. You get to see if your precious peace with the Geth really does work out. If it doesn't? You've got a problem to deal with, and Shepard just gave you a chance to deal with it instead of finishing the job of wiping out organic life.

If in 50,000 yrs, there's no organic life left? Well, then there's no more reaping is there? So that's essentially what control gave you: 50,000 yrs to figure out if your advanced civilizations can manage not to create synthetic life that wipes out organic life.

Or would you rather have a galactic dark age, which essentially returns things to about the late 21st century. You may have FTL, but I can guarantee you that space programs are not going to be the highest priority for your homeworlds with any of the options. Trade will just be easier with the mass relays in working order. So Control is the better option.

You're assuming this because you believe the mass relays are still intact with the control ending.

However the catalyst himself says that releasing the energy of the crucible in any form destroys the relay network. Sorry, the galaxy is screwed either way. At least you still have the Citadel.

[Xellith]

Removing the Quote train lol.

rachellouise wrote...

Xellith wrote...

The reapers arnt trying to wipe out all organic life?  Why not?  I thought that was the argument the catalyst made.  Eventually synthetics will completely wipe out organic life to paraphrase.  You are completely missing the point.  The reapers arnt wiping out all organic life completely.  Hence the catalysts argument that synthetics will ultimately want to wipe out all organic life is completely flawed.

You are arguing for the idea that eventually all synthetics will wipe out all organic life... cept the reapers who ARE synthetics but they havent wiped out all organic life.

Every time you argue that the reapers are not wiping out all organic life - you are fighting your own arugment.

You want us all to believe this:
Synthetics - WILL ultimately destroy ALL organic life in the galaxy.
Reapers - Synthetics who kill ONLY advanced races.
Organics - WILL ultimately create synthetics.

Answer me this.  Why have the Reapers NOT wiped out ALL organic life in the galaxy if synthetics WILL ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy.  Remember you even said the reapers ARE synthetics so by your argument and the reapers argument they should have killed ALL organics.

Explain because I think you are confusing yourself.

No you are mis-reading, or intentionallyy trying to twist my words in order to try and 'win'.

I have put it very clearly.

The synthetics which are to wipe out all life, have not been built yet. Right?

The catalyst and reapers have been harvesting each 50k years to slow advancement. right?

I'm not saying "after xxx years of existing, these synthetics are going to decide to destroy you", but organics will get to the stage where they are able to , and will, build something that they will have no chance against. Clear?

That stage is what the catalyst has been stalling. The synthetics he is warning against have yet to be built.

"The synthetics which are to wipe out all life, have not been built yet. Right?"
Correct.  Synthetics that will wipe out ALL organic life have not been created since there is obviously organic life in the galaxy.

"The catalyst and reapers have been harvesting each 50k years to slow advancement. right?"
Arguable.  They have been reaping once every 50000 years with the intention of stopping advanced civilisations from creating synthetics that will pose a great risk (or so we are told.).  The catalyst himself even states that eventually synthetics will want to destroy all organics.  XXX amount of time the reapers will want to do the same if the catalysts logic is correct (which it isnt since it hasnt happened yet).

"I'm not saying "after xxx years of existing, these synthetics are going to decide to destroy you",
but organics will get to the stage where they are able to , and will,
build something that they will have no chance against. Clear?"
Understood.  However the Reapers were made billions of years ago.  The time of a synthetic race being super powerful came long ago.

"That stage is what the catalyst has been stalling. The synthetics he is warning against have yet to be built."
If what he says is accurate then the reapers exist to stop organics making a race that might defeat the reapers.  Seems more like self preservation than for our benifit.  They get to repoduce by harvesting us, they keep the competition down, they live forever.  They are securing their spot as the dominant force in the galaxy.

This is where the argument breaks down even more.

The catalyst even says "without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics"

So this brings us back to the question of "why havent the Reapers destroyed all organics?" and how by the Cats own logic - the best course of action is to destroy the reapers.

[HunLevente]

essarr71 wrote...

Even ignoring all the ambiguity of what control actually means, Reapers are A.I. Each an independant being. Control is - at best - indoctrination: not exactly an honorable action.

Why this effect wouldn't also affect EDI and the Geth is totally up in the air. In light of all the questions, yes, i'll sacrifice the Geth to make sure the job is actually done.

Sacraficing an entire AI nation is much more honorable, who only protected themselves against the creators not to say not all of them grabbed arms as we learn it in one of the Rannoch missions.
The destroy scene shows the deactivation of the Reapers not their actual destruction. All endings are hanging in the air. We don't know what are the long term consequences of each.