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[Kreidian]

 There this one bit of bod misconception on BioWare's part that I was discussing the other day which I wonder if they even know what they're talking about.

See when discussing why BioWare stated they did not want to change the ending in the EC DLC they mentioned that the Mass Effect fans fell into three groups right now. 

• Those that like the ending. Therefore they would be happy with keeping the ending the same.
• Those that didn't understand the ending. This would include those that didn't like it but will actually enjoy the ending once it's been elaborated upon so they can feel satisfied.
• And those who don't like the ending and won't like it in the EC.

Now according to BioWare themselves, keeping the ending the same will satisfy two out of the three groups above. Those that like the ending, and those that for whatever reason just need more clarification. Since they cant please everyone, they instead feel that this strategy with satisfy the majority of their fans. This is where their math falls horribly, horribly apart.

For starters they assume that these three groups are about even. They're not.

The majority of players did not like the endings. Not everyone hated the endings, but most everyone flat out did not like them. The thing is many of the people who didn't like them can still tolerate the ending. They don't like it, but they don't care enough to really bother with it. But in the end the ending is just horrible right now and most people can see that. 

A new ending isn't going to suddenly alienate the people who just tollerate the ending right now. Many people who are fine with the ending as it would still probably like a different ending even more.

This leads me to another faulty argument being thrown about. That somehow with a better explanation a lot of people who once hated the endings might come to enjoy them. Unlikely but say for the sake of argument this is the case. It still doesn't matter. By that same logic just as many people who like the current endings might actually end up loving entirely new endings even more. Doing math based on weak assumption is pointless here.

The truth is a completely new ending would satisfy far more people. And the reason for this is simple. It's optional. We're talking about a DLC here, people don't have to download it. Therefore here's how the math really works out:
Those that love the current ending can keep it. If you don't want things to change just don't download the EC DLC. This is no different then people who don't like multiplayer, nothings says they have to download the Resurgence Pack.

Those that didn't understand the ending, for whatever reason, don't need to understand it anymore. Unless Bioware makes a new ending that is even worse then the current one, they should be able to come up with something good that people in this group will enjoy and understand. So a New ending is just as good as the old one here so the group remains satisfied.

And obviously those that hate the current ending will be happy to get a new, different ending that doesn't suck.


(Edit: apperently this browser hates the return key when copy/pasting)

Modifié par Kreidian, 04 mai 2012 - 08:08 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

Whoaa buddy, might want to find that enter key...

[Xellith]

They dont care about delivering a product that people want. They only want to deliver art that they want. This is why making people happy doesnt matter.

[The Razman]

They're not basing the decision on mathematically pleasing as many people as possible. Straw man fallacy.

And the argument that "those that like the current ending, just don't download the DLC" has been refuted and debunked and ridiculed and disproved and logically killed to death about a million times already. Please search the forums in future before posting stuff.

[The Punisher1]

Wha....? Majority didn't like the ending? How do you know? The only evidence of discontent we have is the "Retake"ME3 movement. Here's some more math for you:

66,000 >/> 4 mil/2

[Kreidian]

The Razman wrote...

They're not basing the decision on mathematically pleasing as many people as possible. Straw man fallacy.

Actually no. They've made the argument themselves that staying with the current ending will please the majority of their fans. I'm arguing that this is not the case and I find their logic here faulty.

And since when is not downloading DLC not an option? I've not seen anything to debunk this basic fact of gameing life. Stuff exists online doesn't mean you have to download it all. If people really love the ending, having an optional extra ending doesn't ruin their gaming experience in anyway. 

A movie on DVD can have alternate endings in it, sometimes people don't like those alternate endings, this in no way prevents them from watching the original movie without the alternate ending.

[SalsaDMA]

The Punisher1 wrote...

Wha....? Majority didn't like the ending? How do you know? The only evidence of discontent we have is the "Retake"ME3 movement. Here's some more math for you:

66,000 >/> 4 mil/2

Here's some other math for you:

Tens of thousands > a few hundreds

[BioWareM0d13]

The Punisher1 wrote...

Wha....? Majority didn't like the ending? How do you know? The only evidence of discontent we have is the "Retake"ME3 movement. Here's some more math for you:

66,000 >/> 4 mil/2

It is obvious to anyone who didn't just bury their head in the stand and ignore reality, that the ending to Mass Effect 3 was unpopular with the majority of the fanbase. The tone of the discussion on just about every site where Mass Effect 3 was discussed or reviewed was overwhelmingly negative. The general concensus has been "good game, but the ending blows." Contrast with the release of Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, where the tone of the discussion and user reviews was mostly positive.

Does that mean that everyone who didn't like Mass Effect 3's ending is a retaker? Of course not. Most have moved on to other games are probably not giving Mass Effect much thought at all. The retakers just represent the most hardcore element of those that disliked the endings.

[AlanC9]

Kreidian wrote...
And since when is not downloading DLC not an option? I've not seen anything to debunk this basic fact of gameing life. Stuff exists online doesn't mean you have to download it all. If people really love the ending, having an optional extra ending doesn't ruin their gaming experience in anyway. 

There are two assumptions you need to make before saying that a new downloaded ending doesn't matter to people who don't want it.

One, that a new ending wouldn't be canon for the series. Maybe not an issue if the future of the ME universe isn't going to come up in a future game; if that's the case canon doesn't matter.

Two, that the new ending isn't part of the proposed EC. If it's part of the same DLC then I have to get the new ending if I want the EC.

Now, if both these things are true, then the only fight is over resource allocation -- which is like me saying that I wish they hadn't wasted time on making ME3 MP or ME1 UNC worlds. It's an issue, but not a serious one.

What would a new ending be like, anyway? Retake never endorsed any specific vision for a new ending. I'm still not sure what's being proposed. Well, the little blue babies crowd has a vision, but anti-ending folks always insist that they're not just in this because they want a happy ending.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 mai 2012 - 08:25 .

[The Razman]

Kreidian wrote...

The Razman wrote...

They're not basing the decision on mathematically pleasing as many people as possible. Straw man fallacy.

Actually no. They've made the argument themselves that staying with the current ending will please the majority of their fans.

No, they haven't. You've just said that they have.

They've made the argument themselves that what they're doing pleases two out of the three groups. Which it does. You're arguing against a statement you've invented.

And since when is not downloading DLC not an option? I've not seen anything to debunk this basic fact of gameing life. Stuff exists online doesn't mean you have to download it all. If people really love the ending, having an optional extra ending doesn't ruin their gaming experience in anyway. 

A movie on DVD can have alternate endings in it, sometimes people don't like those alternate endings, this in no way prevents them from watching the original movie without the alternate ending.

Like I said, I suggest you do a search for one of the many, many threads on this topic.

Long story short, if you believe that logic, then I'm perfectly entitled to say to you ... just imagine an ending in your head that you like and choose to believe that instead of the ending you don't. There you go, there's your alternate option. Now why aren't you happy with that, hm?

[ME 3]

@The Punisher1

are you mentally defective?
it is pretty damn obvious that most players disliked the ending.

oh yeah, and heres some more math for you 

1+1=2 
people who disliked the ending>>>>>>>>>people who liked it<_<

Modifié par ME 3, 04 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[The Razman]

ME 3 wrote...

@The Punisher1

are you mentally defective?
it is pretty damn obvious that most players disliked the ending.

oh yeah, and heres some more math for you 

1+1=2 
people who disliked the ending>>>>>>>>>people who liked it<_<

So? Argumentum ad populum isn't an argument.

[The Punisher1]

ME 3 wrote...

@The Punisher1

are you mentally defective?
it is pretty damn obvious that most players disliked the ending.

oh yeah, and heres some more math for you 

1+1=2 
people who disliked the ending>>>>>>>>>people who liked it<_<

Source?  You're just guessing.  I'm using actual data

[Kreidian]

Ok seriously, some pro-enders just have no grasp on reality here.

Are you guys saying now that even if the majority didn't like the ending then it's no reason to change it? That's every reason to change it! The whole point is that people are giving the wrong impression about the number of people who don't like the ending. Every one who keeps their eyes and ears open can see an overwhelming majority of people who did not like the ending.

Claiming that only the people who have a retake banner in their sig are the only people who didn't like the ending is just plain stupid. Just like saying everyone who bought the game must clearly love the ending. Seriously, the faulty logic here is just staggering. Most people did not like the ending, most of those people, however, just haven't been vocal about it. Why don't you compare the number of people across the Internet who are clearly stating they didn't like the ending to the number of people who are clearly stating that they did?

On top of that the point you are ignoring is that those who do like the ending ALREADY HAVE THE ENDING THEY WANT!
It's in the game, right now. It's no head-cannon or fanfic, it's part of the actual game experience. So they lose exactly nothing by BioWare releasing a different ending that is optional.

[The Punisher1]

Kreidian wrote...
.

Im just using actual numbers and data.  The only data we have.  And that shows that anti-enders are a vocal minority.  If you can find NUMBERS and DATA proving me wrong, then show me, and I'll shut up.  And saying that all the websites you've been on have anti-ending rants, doesn't count as data.

[UnstableMongoose]

Kreidian wrote...

 There this one bit of bod misconception on BioWare's part that I was discussing the other day which I wonder if they even know what they're talking about.

See when discussing why BioWare stated they did not want to change the ending in the EC DLC they mentioned that the Mass Effect fans fell into three groups right now. 

• Those that like the ending. Therefore they would be happy with keeping the ending the same.
• Those that didn't understand the ending. This would include those that didn't like it but will actually enjoy the ending once it's been elaborated upon so they can feel satisfied.
• And those who don't like the ending and won't like it in the EC.

Now according to BioWare themselves, keeping the ending the same will satisfy two out of the three groups above. Those that like the ending, and those that for whatever reason just need more clarification. Since they cant please everyone, they instead feel that this strategy with satisfy the majority of their fans. This is where their math falls horribly, horribly apart.

For starters they assume that these three groups are about even. They're not.

The majority of players did not like the endings. Not everyone hated the endings, but most everyone flat out did not like them. The thing is many of the people who didn't like them can still tolerate the ending. They don't like it, but they don't care enough to really bother with it. But in the end the ending is just horrible right now and most people can see that. 

A new ending isn't going to suddenly alienate the people who just tollerate the ending right now. Many people who are fine with the ending as it would still probably like a different ending even more.

This leads me to another faulty argument being thrown about. That somehow with a better explanation a lot of people who once hated the endings might come to enjoy them. Unlikely but say for the sake of argument this is the case. It still doesn't matter. By that same logic just as many people who like the current endings might actually end up loving entirely new endings even more. Doing math based on weak assumption is pointless here.

The truth is a completely new ending would satisfy far more people. And the reason for this is simple. It's optional. We're talking about a DLC here, people don't have to download it. Therefore here's how the math really works out:
Those that love the current ending can keep it. If you don't want things to change just don't download the EC DLC. This is no different then people who don't like multiplayer, nothings says they have to download the Resurgence Pack.

Those that didn't understand the ending, for whatever reason, don't need to understand it anymore. Unless Bioware makes a new ending that is even worse then the current one, they should be able to come up with something good that people in this group will enjoy and understand. So a New ending is just as good as the old one here so the group remains satisfied.

And obviously those that hate the current ending will be happy to get a new, different ending that doesn't suck.


(Edit: apperently this browser hates the return key when copy/pasting)

Show me unbiased metrics, and I'll agree with you.

[The Razman]

Kreidian wrote...

Are you guys saying now that even if the majority didn't like the ending then it's no reason to change it?

Yes, that's exactly what we're saying.

Not liking the ending to a story doesn't mean it has to be changed. I hated the ending to Lost, I'm not campaigning to have it retconned in favour of something I like. It ended how the writers wanted to end it. And that's that.

On top of that the point you are ignoring is that those who do like the ending ALREADY HAVE THE ENDING THEY WANT!
It's in the game, right now. It's no head-cannon or fanfic, it's part of the actual game experience. So they lose exactly nothing by BioWare releasing a different ending that is optional.

Except that ending won't exist anymore, except in their heads. The reason I asked why you're not satisfied with an ending you've made up in your head was for you to actually ask yourself that question and realise that, but I guess you missed the point. Retcon the ending and the old one is no longer canon. It'd have the same status as something you'd made up in your head. And no, we can't just "pretend the new ending doesn't exist" anymore than you can pretend that your ideal invented ending that you've imagined is canon to you and the rest of the world. It doesn't work that way.

And what the hell is a "head-cannon"? That some new DLC weapon?

Modifié par The Razman, 04 mai 2012 - 09:56 .

[DaJe]

Did they actually say that?
*tactical facepalm*

Instead of trying to please eventual target audiences they should maybe just look at the ending, realize it has nothing to do in Mass Effect and make a proper one! I don't want an ending I might be ok with, I want an ending that actually seems like a logical conclusion of this game story. I would like that automatically, without feeling patronized.

It does not matter how large certain groups of people sharing an opinion are.
There are countless good reasons why the ending sucks. Facts actually. It is bad, not because some nerd said so but because it simply is.

Just make good games please and stopping trying to cater to target audiences and end up with washed out, half assed mixtures of nothing.

[The Razman]

DaJe wrote...

There are countless good reasons why the ending sucks. Facts actually. It is bad, not because some nerd said so but because it simply is.

It staggers the mind how you could contradict yourself in such a short space.

[Father_Jerusalem]

DaJe wrote...

Did they actually say that?
*tactical facepalm*

Instead of trying to please eventual target audiences they should maybe just look at the ending, realize it has nothing to do in Mass Effect and make a proper one! I don't want an ending I might be ok with, I want an ending that actually seems like a logical conclusion of this game story. I would like that automatically, without feeling patronized.

It does not matter how large certain groups of people sharing an opinion are.
There are countless good reasons why the ending sucks. Facts actually. It is bad, not because some nerd said so but because it simply is.

Just make good games please and stopping trying to cater to target audiences and end up with washed out, half assed mixtures of nothing.

Really? I can say there are many good reasons why the ending is good. Facts, actualy. It is good, not because some nerd said so, but because it simply is. 

It's bad in your opinion, it's good in mine. Are either one of these objective measures? No. So stop trying to claim your opinion as objective fact, thanks.

[AkiKishi]

Look up the term plot hole. Apply it to the ending. Enjoy.

[Running Heron]

I'd just like to see a few points on why the ending is acceptable.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Running Heron wrote...

I'd just like to see a few points on why the ending is acceptable.

Is there any possible thing that I could say about the ending being acceptable that would, in any way, work to change your mind about how much you hate the ending?

[The Razman]

Running Heron wrote...

I'd just like to see a few points on why the ending is acceptable.

As if your viewpoint should be taken as the default position. <_<

[Atakuma]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Look up the term plot hole. Apply it to the ending. Enjoy.

And what exactly does that prove? Lot's of stories have plot holes, that doesn't make them objectively bad.