209 réponses à ce sujet

[Artemis_Entrari]

xsdob wrote...

Looking at the post here reinforces what I already thought. People do not care about other opinions, merely about porpogating their own preconceived biases.

So I'll be avoiding the so called asking pro-ender threads since they are traps set up to troll and flame others out of the fandom.

The bolded part works both ways.  So you might have to avoid all topics on this forum since I've seen folks who are "pro-enders" adopting that exact same philosophy.

[Selene Moonsong]

Let's set some ground rules, shall we?

1. Speak for yourself. For example, I have not given anyone permission to represent my own position. Sorry, fiercely independent.

2. You may as well forget numbers: the number of units owned by those that do not post or otherwise participate in forums vastly outweighs the relatively small percentage of those of us who do participate in the forums by magnitudes. Therefore, you cannot know how many fans of the games and BioWare there actually are.

Statistics can be easily manipulated. For example, most every poll I have ever seen in the forums are not particularly objective and are almost always designed to reflect or are otherwise weighted in such a manner as to represent the poll designer's perspective be it pro or con.

Opinion does not equal fact and anecdotal evidence is nothing more than opinion based on an individual's perspective.

[Siegdrifa]

EDIT:
I wanted to bother but the modo said it all.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 04 mai 2012 - 11:03 .

[The Razman]

slyguy200 wrote...

That is better.

What do you mean, "better"? I've said all of those things before. On multiple occasions. I was sighing because I'm sick of writing them.

And all you did was write "not in a good way" or "they failed" for most of them. Way to offer an argument. You go away now, while me and the nice man who asked me the question of what I liked about the endings have a chat, k?

Modifié par The Razman, 04 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[Running Heron]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Let's set some ground rules, shall we?

1. Speak for yourself. For example, I have not given anyone permission to represent my own position. Sorry, fiercely independent.

2. You may as well forget numbers: the number of units owned by those that do not post or otherwise participate in forums vastly outweighs the relatively small percentage of those of us who do participate in the forums by magnitudes. Therefore, you cannot know how many fans of the games and BioWare there actually are.

Statistics can be easily manipulated. For example, most every poll I have ever seen in the forums are not particularly objective and are almost always designed to reflect or are otherwise weighted in such a manner as to represent the poll designer's perspective be it pro or con.

Opinion does not equal fact and anecdotal evidence is nothing more than opinion based on an individual's perspective.

That is a reasonable assertion.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Running Heron wrote...



-following the suggestions of a war criminal is not emotionlly poignant
-Destroy option:  The geth are destroyed.  Thats...genocide.
-Synthesize option:  Why have diversity when we can all just become the same.  What morals and ideals does that imply?
-Control:  Why would we want to control the reapers?  
-Just because the ending breaks away from convention does not make it good.
-The music is indeed nice but so what?

Thank you for proving my exact point.

[Atakuma]

I like the idea of the ending far more than I liked the actual thing . It was a failure of execution, not answering enough questions while creating too many new ones, nearly identical epilogues etc.

Modifié par Atakuma, 04 mai 2012 - 11:03 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

slyguy200 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

...
*sigh*

1.Because the ending is extremely emotionally poignant

2.cinematically breathtaking

3.allows you to make a decision which affects the entire galaxy and all its inhabitants on a fundamental level (which video-games have always in the past shied away from out of fear of commitment)

4.didn't conform to a typical "beat the boss and win the game" stereotype

5.revealed a brilliant irony about the Reapers (that they're mind-controlled puppets in exactly the same way that they make puppets out of organics)

6.contained music that is still hauntingly and beautifully stuck in my head to this day

7.and wrapped up Shepard's story arc in the Mass Effect universe nicely.

Now, notice how I managed to talk about my feelings about the endings without patronising the other side?

That is better.

1. Meh, not in a good way for most

2. Not in a good way

3. Sure, and i suppose they could have done that significantly better though.

4. That one is okay, but breaking from the usual isn't always a good thing

5. That irony is just dumb, no good and unsatisfying

6.Music is fine

7. No, they failed miserably. They could at the very least have not included the catalyst that way many of peoples objections wouldn't exist, and included some real variability in the endings.

Thank you for proving my exact point as well. 

[Gnaeus.Silvanus]

Ah I remember what a benevolent lead designer once said, "there is no push button to kill all reapers" or something like that.

I still hate the ending because its cliche.

[The Razman]

Running Heron wrote...

-following the suggestions of a war criminal is not emotionlly poignant

Yeah, who would ever follow someone who committed mass murder because he believed he was doing it to save life, anyone who's done that is a war criminal, can't be trusted and is just all around scum.

Oh wait ... doesn't Shepard blow up 300,000 Batarians in an act of mass genocide for the greater good in The Arrival? Are we really judging?

-Destroy option:  The geth are destroyed.  Thats...genocide.
-Synthesize option:  Why have diversity when we can all just become the same.  What morals and ideals does that imply?
-Control:  Why would we want to control the reapers?

The fact that you see a downside to all of those is the whole point. It wouldn't be a hard choice otherwise, would it? What's the problem with that?

-Just because the ending breaks away from convention does not make it good.

No, but the fact that it breaks away from convention in favour of offering us a simple choice is. It's exactly how Mass Effect should have ended; with a choice, not a boss battle. They broke convention appropriately.

-The music is indeed nice but so what?

So you wanted things which I love about the ending. The fact that that music plays in my head hauntingly whenever I think about Shepard making the ultimate sacrifice? That's evidence of the beauty that the ending provides.

[xsdob]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Looking at the post here reinforces what I already thought. People do not care about other opinions, merely about porpogating their own preconceived biases.

So I'll be avoiding the so called asking pro-ender threads since they are traps set up to troll and flame others out of the fandom.

The bolded part works both ways.  So you might have to avoid all topics on this forum since I've seen folks who are "pro-enders" adopting that exact same philosophy.

I already do. I was forced into doing so for my own mental well being.

Modifié par xsdob, 04 mai 2012 - 11:10 .

[AlanC9]

-Destroy option:  The geth are destroyed.  Thats...genocide.
-Synthesize option:  Why have diversity when we can all just become the same.  What morals and ideals does that imply?
-Control:  Why would we want to control the reapers? [/quote]

Well, I'd characterize them more like this:

Destroy: Yep, genocide. Unacceptable.
Synthesize: awfully goddman arrrogant and destructive. On the plus side, it sounds like it really will be a permanent solution to the problem, and it looks like we're going in this direction anyway. Still not great.
Control: hey, if that's what I gotta do to stop them without genocide, so be it.

In the end, the Crucible does what the Crucible can do. The fact that it doesn't have a function that really makes Shepard happy isn't a dealbreaker for me.

[Psycho0124]

The Punisher1 wrote...

Wha....? Majority didn't like the ending? How do you know? The only evidence of discontent we have is the "Retake"ME3 movement. Here's some more math for you:

66,000 >/> 4 mil/2

Troll bait.. Allright I'll bite.

Check the polls. Extrapolate the opinions of the whole 4mil from the sample size and poll results.
It's pretty basic statistics dude..

If it were even remotely split, you could justify your position with arguements of poll tampering and such.. Unfortunately the poll results weren't ambiguious at all. Even by assuming unreasonably huge margins of error, the polls indicate the majority of players disliked or outright hated the ending.

You shouldn't open up that 'math' stuff unless you're sure it supports your position.

Modifié par Psycho0124, 04 mai 2012 - 11:12 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Looking at the post here reinforces what I already thought. People do not care about other opinions, merely about porpogating their own preconceived biases.

So I'll be avoiding the so called asking pro-ender threads since they are traps set up to troll and flame others out of the fandom.

The bolded part works both ways.  So you might have to avoid all topics on this forum since I've seen folks who are "pro-enders" adopting that exact same philosophy.

False equivalency. When was the last time you saw a pro-ender demand anti-enders explain why they don't like the ending? When was the last time a pro-ender made a thread just to show off some random person from the internet's YouTube video about how much they liked the ending? When was the last time a pro-ender was screaming about poll numbers and how that means they're right and the other side needs to shut up and accept it?

Please, point those out to me.

[Father_Jerusalem]

slyguy200 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

...
Thank you for proving my exact point as well. 

You are welcome. 

Now you. Come on, it is your turn.

So you can completely belittle, mock, and ignore my points like you did Razman's? Gee, yeah, I think I'll go ahead and pass on your lovely invitation there. 

[rapscallioness]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Running Heron wrote...

I'd just like to see a few points on why the ending is acceptable.

Is there any possible thing that I could say about the ending being acceptable that would, in any way, work to change your mind about how much you hate the ending?

No, Father Jerusalem. No, there isn't. And that makes me sad. I didn't want to hate the ending. But I do. I was very disappointed.

And what actually bothers me more than the actual ending is this idea that the reason I don't like the ending is because I simply don't understand it. So, they're going to explain it to me. As if I'm a child. A dull-witted child at that.

As far as those that do like the ending...cool. I'm happy for you. Really. I'm glad it worked for you. I wouldn't wish this feeling of disappointment on anyone. I don't think that makes people that liked the ending unintelligent, or shills.

I'm not a "Retaker" per se, but what I don't understand is why so-called "pro-enders" care so much what the Retakers are doing, or not doing. The pro-enders got theirs. If the Retakers think they got what it takes--hey, let's see what they can do.

Frankly, I'm amazed that 5 minutes, or so of the game had the ability to leech away so much passion I once had for this series. When it ended the first words out of my mouth were literally, "Wtf? What?" I've never had that reaction to the ending of a ME game.

Yet, I find that I'm being belittled for not liking the ending. Yeah, yeah, I know---it's the Retakers being belittled. But besides the few crazy people sending death threats, and understanding that crazy is pretty much everywhere, most of the Retakers have been very intelligent, articulate people. They expressed what I was feeling, but didn't want to take the time to express.

In business, it's not the complainers they worry about the most. It's the quiet ones that feel the same way, but don't complain. Because then the business no longer has the opportunity to address those issues and try to make them right. In the process, hopefully, keeping a customer for the future.

In My Opinion, if I'm still allowed to have one that is, BW crapped out on that ending.

I gotta tell you, though, I never thought I'd miss the days of the Paragon vs. Renegade threads. Who knew that those were actually the good times?

[The Razman]

slyguy200 wrote...

You never put them in a list before

Yes. I have. I've written paragraphs like the one above before. If you've missed them, sure. Coming into this thread and saying "Watch, he never talks about why he likes the endings" when I've done so before just makes you look like a colossal idiot who's looking for a fight.

It left me speechless in a bad way, it confused me then pissed me off.
They failed, meaning that they made an attempt but didn't pull it off. I have seen many more stories closing like that, and most of them made me feel good, not this one though it just pissed me off to be honest.

All the things you've said have been why they failed for you. So what?

[The Razman]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

...
Thank you for proving my exact point as well. 

You are welcome. 

Now you. Come on, it is your turn.

So you can completely belittle, mock, and ignore my points like you did Razman's? Gee, yeah, I think I'll go ahead and pass on your lovely invitation there. 

To be fair, all he did was go "nope, nope, nope, yep, nope, yep, nope". I think, I think ... my argument can withstand such a barrage of logical deconstruction and belittlement.

[Running Heron]

[quote]The Razman wrote...

[quote]Running Heron wrote...

-following the suggestions of a war criminal is not emotionlly poignant[/quote]
Yeah, who would ever follow someone who committed mass murder because he believed he was doing it to save life, anyone who's done that is a war criminal, can't be trusted and is just all around scum.

Oh wait ... doesn't Shepard blow up 300,000 Batarians in an act of mass genocide for the greater good in The Arrival? Are we really judging?

Yes but the difference here is that Shephard had no choice in the matter.  He did not actively set out to kill them, he even tried to warn them but there was absolutely no way around it.  It was either sacrifice the colony or let the reapers through.  The reason for the reapers' genocide is, I'll say it again, completely assinine and we can show it by uniting the geth and the quarians.

[quote]-Destroy option:  The geth are destroyed.  Thats...genocide.
-Synthesize option:  Why have diversity when we can all just become the same.  What morals and ideals does that imply?
-Control:  Why would we want to control the reapers? [/quote]
The fact that you see a downside to all of those is the whole point. It wouldn't be a hard choice otherwise, would it? What's the problem with that?

My problem is why we are being forced into these decisions in the first place.  There is no precedent for it and we should be able to refuse the catalyst's flawed logic.  If we had that option I probably wouldn't mind the ending so much.
[quote]-Just because the ending breaks away from convention does not make it good.[/quote]
No, but the fact that it breaks away from convention in favour of offering us a simple choice is. It's exactly how Mass Effect should have ended; with a choice, not a boss battle. They broke convention appropriately.

I agree with this general principle and I agree that a choice is a great way to end the game.  But the events leading up to and surrounding those choices simply do not jive with the rest of the series(or make logical sense)
[quote]-The music is indeed nice but so what?[/quote]
So you wanted things which I love about the ending. The fact that that music plays in my head hauntingly whenever I think about Shepard making the ultimate sacrifice? That's evidence of the beauty that the ending provides.
[/quote 

True true, but you could put excellent music over anything.  just because it looks and sounds nice does not make it good.

Modifié par Running Heron, 04 mai 2012 - 11:17 .