13 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

So, I'm going to first start off by saying that I am incredibly ignorant about how games are designed. From mechanics to implementation to AI to what-have-you. The only thing I do know is that resources are always an issue and creating a game requires collaborative discussion between everyone in a company.

Seeing as how I have yet to hear back from the colleges I applied to for a Game Design course, I figure the BSN was the next best place to learn some things.

I'm going to try to keep this at least slightly related to DA, but it will pertain more to games on the whole. Still, I feel that it could lend itself well to a DA discussion. If not, I'll copy and paste this post and put it in the off-topic section.

My only question at the moment is this: Is it possible to get the companions to interact with their environment outside of cutscenes? It would kinda make the environments seem less gamey and more like actual homes.

Take for instance Fenris' mansion:



You've got the painting in the middle there, the statues leaning on the railing, and everyone knows about the corpses in all parts of the mansion remaining there for years.

So is it possible -- at least theoretically with how games can be developed today -- for Fenris to lift the painting and place it on the wall? Or fix the leaning statues? Or pick up some corpses and maybe bury them or toss them into Darktown?

I realize the simpler way to make his mansion look less like a crypt that's gone to hell and back is to just create an entirely new map where it looks better, but I wonder if the obviously more complex path is at least possible? Because that'd add something to Fenris, where he's at least trying to get the stench of death and the idea that this was his former master's home out.

Same question applies to Merrill's house:

http://images.wikia.com/dragonage/images/2/2e/Merrill's_House.PNG

Is it possible to see her taking books off of her bookshelves and reading them at her table? Or see her work on her project? Or other stuff.

Same thing with the rest of the companions, though some of it would really just be interacting with NPCs. But my question has more to do with environmental interaction and not NPC interaction, since I know the latter is already possible. Aveline could read guard reports or books, instruct some of her charges, etc. Isabela could play cards with patrons, Anders could heal people, etc.

Stuff that consists of them interacting with their environment and the items within it, rather then just standing around waiting for me to say "Hey".

This goes in line with making the cities feel more alive, in a way. So again I ask, is it theoretically possible for the environment to be interacted with by the companions, using what technology exists today? Ignoring resources and whatnot. Could that painting in the Fenris pic not be there just to be there, but be there because it's a painting that can be placed on the mantle?

I'll probably come up with other questions later on, more then likely if this thread gets a few replies.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[Dakota Strider]

Since other games have "companions" that can speak with you, without entering a cutscene (Skyrim being the most recent example I can think of), that answer for that part of your question, is yes.

Like yourself, I have not been accepted to game design school, but it is my thought that doing it as you suggested, should take less resources than always entering a cutscene, to have a conversation with your companions.

[brushyourteeth]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Since other games have "companions" that can speak with you, without entering a cutscene (Skyrim being the most recent example I can think of), that answer for that part of your question, is yes.

Like yourself, I have not been accepted to game design school, but it is my thought that doing it as you suggested, should take less resources than always entering a cutscene, to have a conversation with your companions.

This is true - at least in Skyrim, there are always people playing instruments, reading books, smithing, making potions, etc. while they talk to you. So it's obviously possible, though I can't say how easy it is to pull off.

[PsychoBlonde]

brushyourteeth wrote...
So it's obviously possible, though I can't say how easy it is to pull off.

It's not any more difficult than any other type of animation, it's just resource-intensive to do it a lot and creates ever-ramifying problems the more complex you try to make it.  For instance, do you notice in Skyrim how, when people start playing an instrument, they basically pull it out of thin air?  Why didn't they animate it in such a way that they go pick up a lute that's standing in the corner?  And how silly would it look for them to go "pick up" that lute in the wrong place after the Dohvakiin FUS RO DAH'd it into the chandelier?

If the scenery is utterly static, (or a substantial portion of it is) you can hard-code stuff like this, however the animations look like exactly what they are: hard-coded loops.  If you're really bored, you can sit down and write the pages of code necessary for characters to locate objects and interact with said object (which will probably still look artificial if there's too many possible positions said object can be in).  But even small deviations you didn't account for will end up with people obliviously sweeping in puddles and playing their lute while jammed under a bridge.

Bioware very clearly places a higher priority on the "face" content--the stuff they plan for you to look at in detail, like dialog cut scenes.  (And even then, you'll get cut scenes where, say, objects on a desk are seen at extreme magnification and revealed to be RIDICULOUSLY low poly compared to the characters in the scene.)  The priority on ambient areas is obviously pretty low, which is why we have eternal corpses and NPC's who say the same thing every time you walk past them for seven years.  They don't seem to have any interest AT ALL in programming one-time animations that the player may not even NOTICE.

That's actually one thing I like about Blizzard--in a lot of their games, they have little things that you practically need a MICROSCOPE to see.  But Blizzard still added a neat little detail to it.  They don't seem to care whether YOU notice it or not.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 05 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[LolaLei]

It would be pretty cool to see them interact with their surroundings. As for how difficult it is to implement, I have no idea... I can't imagine that it's easy though.

[TEWR]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Since other games have "companions" that can speak with you, without entering a cutscene (Skyrim being the most recent example I can think of), that answer for that part of your question, is yes.

Like yourself, I have not been accepted to game design school, but it is my thought that doing it as you suggested, should take less resources than always entering a cutscene, to have a conversation with your companions.

I think you misunderstood my question. My question is asking if Fenris can interact with the details in his home outside of a cutscene, not whether Fenris can talk to me outside of a cutscene. Meaning if I were to enter the house I could see him moving around it and cleaning it up, before I initiate a conversation with him.

Because let's face it, that place needed to be seriously renovated.

I'm not asking if I can talk to him while he does something else, but rather if when I'm not talking to him he does something else. Something that has an impact on his house.

Now, it might present some cinematic issues if the player saw Fenris moving a painting and then started talking to him, only to see Fenris and Hawke in the bedroom. But I'm asking if Fenris actually doing something with his house can be done, irrespective of conversations.

I suppose this...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My only question at the moment is this: Is it possible to get the companions to interact with their environment outside of cutscenes?

...gave off the wrong impressions on what I was trying to ask. My apologies for that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mai 2012 - 03:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

Yes, Fenris can do that.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It depends on the engine and how the map is built, I believe. Some items in a map will be static, and immovable. To move a static item would mean creating a brand new map with the item in the desired position. Dynamic items are movable items placed within the static map. So you might have a static table, but a dynamic plate of food upon it. You might have a static footpath, but the sword you just dropped from your inventory is dynamic.

I cannot, offhand, think of any Bioware games that had truly dynamic items that can be moved (not merely 'used'). The only example I can think of is the lyrium idol in DA2, which is moved in a cutscene. That said, if the portrait in Fenris's house was dynamic then he could potentially move it. If it was static, then no, the area map would have to be changed.

Edit: It's difficult to say without DA2's toolset.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 mai 2012 - 03:16 .

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It depends on the engine and how the map is built, I believe. Some items in a map will be static, and immovable. To move a static item would mean creating a brand new map with the item in the desired position. Dynamic items are movable items placed within the static map. So you might have a static table, but a dynamic plate of food upon it. You might have a static footpath, but the sword you just dropped from your inventory is dynamic.

I cannot, offhand, think of any Bioware games that had truly dynamic items that can be moved (not merely 'used'). The only example I can think of is the lyrium idol in DA2, which is moved in a cutscene. That said, if the portrait in Fenris's house was dynamic then he could potentially move it. If it was static, then no, the area map would have to be changed.

Edit: It's difficult to say without DA2's toolset.

Interesting. So the nature of the item influences its nature in the map. I suppose this is what's seen in Skyrim where plates, metal scraps, weapons, and other things can be moved by the player.

Not quite in the way I'm asking about where the characters are seen to be actually lifting the items by the player, but that seems to be the general concept.

[Dakota Strider]

I seem to remember in NwN you could pick up objects, and drop them again. However, it seemed that when you picked them up, they first went to your pack, then you had to ready them to be seen in your hands. So not directly into your hand, as you would want.  I am sure companions could be coded to do this, though not sure how much effort it would take.

Now in Skyrim, you can click on an object, and as long as you do not release the click, you can move it around in the environment, and even place it on shelves and tables, or flip it around. Once again, if the PC can do that, it is just a matter of writing code to have companions doing the same thing. Not sure how smooth it would look, but perhaps real simple tasks may look realistic.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 05 mai 2012 - 04:03 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

@OP, you're talking about scripted AI behavior, the property of actors. Yes it can be done. It can be done in NWN. It can be done in NWN2. It can be done in Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, DAO, Mass Effect and every others actors in a game. Scripting is easy. Animating is not. It takes more time to animate a movement than just insert text command pointing a specific behavior.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 mai 2012 - 04:52 .

[Corker]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


I cannot, offhand, think of any Bioware games that had truly dynamic items that can be moved (not merely 'used'). The only example I can think of is the lyrium idol in DA2, which is moved in a cutscene.

Varric famously flips a crossbow bolt between his fingers in his intro - but again, cut scene.  Ditto for the Joining Cup, and I think all of the 'drinking at the bar' animations with the giant  mug.

In Feynriel's dream, you can click barrels to move them and solve a puzzle, and in Bartrand's Haunted House, all manner of things levitate and fly and move.  Moving things isn't so hard (as long as they're not baked-in static parts of the level) but *holding* them is.  As another poster mentioned, animating touching/holding something isn't easy.  At a guess, weapons are doable because they all use a similar grip and...well, you kind of have to do them. But animating the variety of grips people can use to pick up random objects, just for color, is another, more expensive thing.  They do it, obviously, but sparingly because it's expensive.

Even touching things can have problems - there's a magical forcefield in 'The Stone Prisoner' that the Warden can touch, and it results in a ripple effect (same as the eluvian in the Dalish Origin and 'Witch Hunt.')  With a dwarf Warden, the ripples appear well above where the hand is placed, because a separate height-specific animation wasn't done.

[Pasquale1234]

To give you some ideas of what is possible with today's technology, I would refer you to some videos from The Sims3.

Here is one of a chef cooking and consuming Ambrosia.  It is a special dish that resets the Sim's age, thus the effects - but normal, everyday food is cooked in pretty much the same way.

www.youtube.com/watch

This one is a guitarist, later with a band.  Sims will pick up a guitar sitting on the floor, and either set it back in its previous location when they're finished playing or place it in their personal inventory, in which case it just sort of disappears.

www.youtube.com/watch

And just for the "aw....." factor, here's a couple of toddlers interacting with toys - a xylophone and pegbox.

www.youtube.com/watch

Watching grown-ups play with the virtual reality goggles is pretty interesting, too.  :happy:

Of course, the division of EA (formerly Maxis) responsible for The Sims games obviously devotes beaucoup resources to crafting those objects, interactions, and animations.  It is, after all, the entire purpose of the game - to watch your Sims go about their daily lives.  Even so, there are some occasional glitches, and there are plenty of youtube videos to attest to them.

As for where that leaves us with DA - I couldn't say.  I would guess the engine and technology would make it possible to do at least some additional environmental interactions, but I suspect it is highly resource intensive and they prefer to spend those resources elsewhere.

ETA:

RE your desire to become a game developer - have you ever worked with NWN?  It has a toolset that makes it possible for you to set up your own environments and scenarios.  I noticed some time ago, that BioWare had a job opportunity, and one of the things they requested was that applicants include something they had written using NWN.  There are also quite a few other games that provide map editors and such - working with them could give you some practical experience, especially if you share them with other players and solicit feedback.

In any case, best wishes on your intended career path.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 05 mai 2012 - 02:30 .

[Cantina]

Yes, it is possible. It depends on a number of factors though. What resources the company has, how many people are working on the game, if the developers are wanting to move in that direction, if their wanting to apply the time to it etc.

The thing is Skyrim and Dragon Age use two different engines. I do not know the full capabilities of Dragon Age’s engine, but it sounds like to me they are more limited on what they can do compared to Skyrim. If I recall correctly Todd Howard said long before Skyrim was released they were updating their engine.

Every time I hear someone on these forums come up with a good idea, the rebuttal is always “I don’t think we have enough resources to do that.”

Do not get me wrong I enjoy Dragon Age, but I think if they offered more in terms of what Skyrim offers, the game could be much better. I certainly would not say no to more interaction with the world. However, I think in order for that to happen, Bioware will need a new engine. No offense, but the way they talk it sounds like their engine is held together with duct tape. At least in Skyrim I can undress my romance and his clothes are not glued to him or has an invisible middle body <shakes head>