1357 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What about the Catalyst's logic is exactly circular?

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

[dreamgazer]

CavScout wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

The game ends when you make the final choice. Your either indoctrinated or you fought off indoctrination and destroyed the reapers.

Why is it the more poorly you do, gathering EMS, the better chances you have of destroying the Reapers? IE, you don't bother gathering military forces and destroy is the only option presented....

if you do that, you're basically Vega Shepard. Your pigheadedness prevents you from being swayed by the reaper indoctrination point. Congratulations! problem is you're probably still going to bleed out in London. It's not as if your army's gonna be able to help much.

LOL, the more crappy you play the better off you are fighting indoctrindation...

Negative. The way I've interpreted IT, if the whole sprawl of it ends up happening: the crappier you do, the less-formidable of a beacon to galactic existence you are.  Therefore, they care less whether you actually pass the test or not. 

... what? ...

*WARNING* -- This is me trying to make sense of what we've got (again, assuming that the full IT is correct, and that you'll pick up afterwards once the EC is released):

The lower your EMS score, the less Shepard has done to prepare for the Reapers.  If you've done less, then you've earned less trust from the other races, have a smaller force, and haven't become as big of a crucial deal to the existence of the galaxy as you possibly could have.  Therefore, manipulating you will become less of a deal to them and you'll deserve less effort / less of a moral dilemma -- still worth an attempt, but you're less important to them.  

If you "defeat" the indoctrination attempt with a lower EMS by choosing Destroy, then they're not losing a very important part of the puzzle.  With a higher EMS score, you've met your potential, united more of the galaxy, and have become a more important puzzle-piece in the resistence against the Reapers, therefore making yourself even more "worthy" of a difficult dilemma (synthesis). 

----

I definitely believe that BioWare intended to include hints and symptoms of indoctrination, that they contribute to the surreal nature of the conclusion, and that ultimately Destroy is the only option that Shepard would choose (Control and Synthesis align too closely with what the villains have been preaching since day one).  My jury's still out as to whether I ascribe to the whole thing.  No matter what, it means that there's a component missing that, hopefully, the extended cut will offer. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 05 mai 2012 - 08:17 .

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
One may disagree with the Catalyst, but the logic it uses is not circular.... you may what to use a dictionary.

So let me get this straight, you don't agree with the logic of I.T., but you agree with the logic of the catalyst?

INDOCTRINATED PRESENCE DETECTED!!!!!

IT is not logical, relies on extensive circular reasoning just to manufacture "evidence" and is fan-fiction to boot.

The Catalyst's reason is logical. I did not say I agreed with it. I select Destroy for a reason. Logical = / = Agreed With

Seems like you have some research to do, a theory doesn't get this popular if it's not logical.

LOL, what?

[pottman]

Leafs43 wrote...

pottman wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

pottman wrote...

Why the sudden militant action ITers?

When being harsh to a troll, is that being considered militant?

So, you're saying people with different opinions are trolls?

If you had read the thread you'd realize that cavscout is asking questions that a 10 year old could answer.

I don't like the tone of your post, and I've read it, it's a mess.

Modifié par pottman, 05 mai 2012 - 08:18 .

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

If you're dead, why bother having you dream?

You die in the endings at face value anyway.... when a person dies a chemical known as DMT (the dream chemical) is released into the brain. Everything Shep sees after the decision is him coping with what has presented before.

Can you not just make things up that happened in game, just once? Please?

I'm talking science bro, this is a game based in science (fiction)

[CavScout]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
Seems like you have some research to do, a theory doesn't get this popular if it's not logical.

WTF???

I don't know if there is a large enough facepalm collection to respond to Balance's silly claim....

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What about the Catalyst's logic is exactly circular?

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

[Leafs43]

CavScout wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What about the Catalyst's logic is exactly circular?

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

How about you explain to me the star child's logc?

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What are you on? You have no proof the Catalyst is lying on purpose

You have no reason to trust this self confessed killer of countless trillions, who has killed the Earthchild, probed your mind and selected that very same image, the one that's been haunting your dreams, and worn it.

That is not evidence that he is lying.... not trusting someone is not proof that they are lying...

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening

Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.

Lol wut, "superstituos awe", you're describing the Catalyst in accurate terms just to support IT. The Catalyst doesn't convibce you to pick anyway, just lays out the information you need to make an informed choice

Informed, my ass............you're picking blue or green is idiotic, that's for sure, and this isn't any substantiated proof, this is merely the star-twit, decieving you into false hope. Misguided hope, that you truly believe what that ingrate-kid is telling you.

What are you on? You have no proof the Catalyst is lying on purpose

You have no reason to trust this self confessed killer of countless trillions, who has killed the Earthchild, probed your mind and selected that very same image, the one that's been haunting your dreams, and worn it.

Well indirectly killed the Child on Earth, it is unclear whether he controls every individual Reaper's actions or delegates responsibility somewhat to the Reaper themselves. Regardless, you should assume that what a character is saying is true unless the narrative distinctively tells you otherwise. Just because he has committed horrendous actions doesn't mean that everything he says is complete bull.

[KingZayd]

ohupthis wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.

Yet, you are clearly wrong.

Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.

May I add something to this?

Subsequently, mind controls the body, hence shooting Anderson was NOT our idea, but TIM/Reaper, control!

this is true: however, Shepard's mind wasn't being controlled in that scene. He was arguing with TIM and was even able to convince him to shoot his brains out. Unless you believe TIM secretly wanted to die/ The Reapers wanted their pawn to die. Could be interesting if it was meant to be a whole: Darth Sidious convincing Anakin to kill Count Dookou thing. I'm not sure why they'd do that though?

The body control can't be done without the mind control. And in that that level of mind control causes serious damage. Shepard doesn't seem particularly clever afterwards, but i wouldn't say he's had serious brain damage.

Which GAME is that? It isn't ME3, so point lost, AGAIN ugh, moments of RESISTANCE, clear thinking, it has happened throughout the entire series. Convincing someone to shoot themselves, is both people resisting indoc, and REALIZING TIM screwed up. How hard is that to get thru??

I truly am worried about the stability of some of our members here.

Wait so i'm not allowed to refer to things outside the mass effect universe? I'm not against indoctrination theory. I'm saying that i don't think that encounter was real. I'm truly worried about the comprehension capabilities of people on this board He had enough mental clarity to argue pretty rationally with TIM, but not to prevent himself from shooting Anderson? Why does that make sense, if he was indeed awake?

[balance5050]

Leafs43 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What about the Catalyst's logic is exactly circular?

*snips*

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

How about you explain to me the star child's logc?

It's funny because Cavscout doesn't seem interested in talking about the game, just how dumb he thinks I.T. is. Pointless I know.

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

I don't need to. It is not the Catalyst's logic.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

I don't need to. It is not the Catalyst's logic.

What IS his logic then?

[Leafs43]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

I don't need to. It is not the Catalyst's logic.

If it's not the catalyst's logic, then go ahead and explain the catalysts logic.

[CavScout]

Leafs43 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

How about you explain to me the star child's logc?

A few posts above, someone just did. Convenient that you missed it....

[OH-UP-THIS!]

CavScout wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Cavscout The destroy choice is still presented because Shepard is not indoctrinated, you are at the end stages of being indoctrinated. You will either become indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis or you will literally destroy idoctrinations grasp and reapers by choosing that option.

According to IT, it's all fake anyways. It's a dream. Why offer an actuall solution? Hell, why is Destroy sometimes the ONLY option?

IT wants us to believe the Shep is so far along in indoctrination that he can't see reality but yet we are to believe the Reapers actually allow him to stop them.

EVERY Indoctrinated subject WE have encountered through ALL 3 friggen games, has HAD moments of RESISTING indoc, how is that so hard to see? Saren resisted long enough, to shoot himself. Benezia gave us VITAL information, in a MOMENT of resistance!!!!!!!!

WAKE THE F***-UP, GAH!! Why, oh why IS it NOT possible to beotch-slap through the internet?

In IT, the entire scene on the Citadel/Crucible is a not real. Shep never snaps out of it. All the choices are made in the "dream state". According to IT he resists nothing... he simply picks one of the choices before him.

That's it, if you pick destroy, you defeat the Indoc, and wakeup in London,still alive but injured.
  If you pick blue or green, during this 'dream', you've given in to Indoc, and lost the entire galaxy, again.

If your assets only allow for Destroy, your not worthy of being 'uplifted' and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is destroyed...........the Earth, all your allies, everything!

Vaporized. end of story.

[SubAstris]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

I don't need to. It is not the Catalyst's logic.

Are you saying the Catalyst's logic is not circular, or that it doesn't say that it culls advanced lifeforms (basically what I said)?

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

How about you explain to me the star child's logc?

It's funny because Cavscout doesn't seem interested in talking about the game, just how dumb he thinks I.T. is. Pointless I know.

It's only funny if you ignore all the times I actually talk about the game... it's usually followed by you saying "it wasn't real, it was indoctrination!"

Modifié par CavScout, 05 mai 2012 - 08:25 .

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening

Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.

Lol wut, "superstituos awe", you're describing the Catalyst in accurate terms just to support IT. The Catalyst doesn't convibce you to pick anyway, just lays out the information you need to make an informed choice

Informed, my ass............you're picking blue or green is idiotic, that's for sure, and this isn't any substantiated proof, this is merely the star-twit, decieving you into false hope. Misguided hope, that you truly believe what that ingrate-kid is telling you.

What are you on? You have no proof the Catalyst is lying on purpose

You have no reason to trust this self confessed killer of countless trillions, who has killed the Earthchild, probed your mind and selected that very same image, the one that's been haunting your dreams, and worn it.

Well indirectly killed the Child on Earth, it is unclear whether he controls every individual Reaper's actions or delegates responsibility somewhat to the Reaper themselves. Regardless, you should assume that what a character is saying is true unless the narrative distinctively tells you otherwise. Just because he has committed horrendous actions doesn't mean that everything he says is complete bull.

no but he hasn't given me any reason to trust him.  also, why should you automatically assume that every character is telling the truth unless you're explicitly told so? i know it's science fiction, but i think you're taking it a little far. Everybody lies.

It doesn't matter that he might not have directly killed the Child on Earth. He still gave the order (if he indeed controls the reapers). He's similarly responsible for the deaths of many other children, and grownups too.

I actually think he's manipulating you with half-truths as well as lies. Without them killing us earlier, it's quite possible that we (like the Quarians) would start a stupid war and get ourselves killed by some synthetics. But I don't believe that this is their true motivation, and nothing in my encounter warranted my beginning to trust this abomination,

[CavScout]

SubAstris wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

I don't need to. It is not the Catalyst's logic.

Are you saying the Catalyst's logic is not circular, or that it doesn't say that it culls advanced lifeforms (basically what I said)?

The former. It clearly states it culls the advanced civilizations.

[Leafs43]

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What about the Catalyst's logic is exactly circular?

But if you actually hear what the Catalyst says then you would realise that this is an incorrect representation of his argument. He has says he will kill advanced life with synthetic-organics machines (Reapers), living the less advanced races to continue. That is not a circular argument.

So what you are saying is that the reapers, an advanced synthetic civilization, kill advanced civilizations so they don't get killed by other advanced synthetics?

And how is that not circular logic?

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

That's not the Catalyst's logic. Try again?

Yes it is, play the game again.

I don't need to. It is not the Catalyst's logic.

Are you saying the Catalyst's logic is not circular, or that it doesn't say that it culls advanced lifeforms (basically what I said)?

The former. It clearly states it culls the advanced civilizations.

Seems like they just liquify organics to be used as fuel and as a means to reproduce. but I'm just using the collector base as an example, you know, where WE ACTUALLY SAW A REAPER BEING MADE MY LIQUIFYING HUMANS. 

I suppose a little memory of a ghost boy who clearly lies is a trustworthy source of information....<_<

[CavScout]

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

But if you actually hear what the Catalyst says then you would realise that this is an incorrect representation of his argument. He has says he will kill advanced life with synthetic-organics machines (Reapers), living the less advanced races to continue. That is not a circular argument.

So what you are saying is that the reapers, an advanced synthetic civilization, kill advanced civilizations so they don't get killed by other advanced synthetics?

And how is that not circular logic?

The Catalyst is not about saving advanced civilizations, it's about preventing the total extinction of organics. You're attributing a reason to the Catalyst that it doesn't express. You then attack it for it.

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What are you on? You have no proof the Catalyst is lying on purpose

You have no reason to trust this self confessed killer of countless trillions, who has killed the Earthchild, probed your mind and selected that very same image, the one that's been haunting your dreams, and worn it.

That is not evidence that he is lying.... not trusting someone is not proof that they are lying...

my point is there isn't evidence that he isn't either.