1357 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...
You know if it was lying or even wanted to lie, it wouldn't even have bother to lift Shepard to the outside on the bottom of the Presidium. The Reapers were already winning.  In other words, why even bother to fool Shepard when it was already winning?

If it wasn't lying it had no reason to bring Shepard upstairs either. The only answer that makes sense is indoctrination.

No, it's not the "only" answer. It could, be as the game plays out, Shep makes it the Crucible and the Catalyst simply gives him the available options.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...
That is not evidence that he is lying.... not trusting someone is not proof that they are lying...

my point is there isn't evidence that he isn't either.

So you can't show he is lying....

oh i can show to a pretty reasonable extent, that if he isn't lying, then the mass effect universe doesn't make sense/ is just ridiculous.

Again, you can't show it lying.

"Hey, grab this lightning and you can control million year old death machines!"

"Hey, jump into this f***in laser and everyone becomes a cyborg!"

"Yeah, just shoot those tubes over there, that's how to PROPERLY activate this highly advanced tech."

Symbology man, don't spare the reapers, we fight or we die.

What exactly in the narrative disproves that these things can happen?

A million years of people thinking they can control the reapers and people thinking that Organics + Synthetics is the pinnacle of evolution, only to find out they were indoctrinated.

You conveniently miss out why they failed, because they were indoctrinated. But Shepard is not, and therefore can be given power by the Catalyst

[CavScout]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
In essence, until BioWare out and out says otherwise, the Indoctrination Theory is just as valid an interpretation of the ending as the literallist one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

... did you even read the excerpt I posted?

It doesn't make your comments anymore valid.

Just because you say so, does not make it so.  Offer something to support your claim, otherwise it's mere sound and fury, signifying nothing.

And since my comment was directly referring to the excerpt from the essay that I posted, it might behoove you to address that instead.

I addressed what you wrote.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Again, you can't show it lying.

Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

Catalyst never says Shepperd will die to his synthetic parts. Like your claims of circular reasoning, you are making up dialog that never occurred.

"You can destroy all synthetic life if you want, even you are partly synthetic."

He doesn't say it outright but he implies it. I doubt Shep can survivve without his synthetics. He has A LOT of synthetics.

 

[Leafs43]

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

He says that he is PARTLY synthetic...he never says he will die

Shepherd's entire face is a synthetic implant.

Shepherd cannot survive without a face.

You aren't making much sense, are you saying his nose is not organic?

Shepherd's implants help Shepherd breath, eat, see, move, etc...

Try not breathing and see how long you live.

Modifié par Leafs43, 05 mai 2012 - 09:02 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

CavScout wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

The game ends when you make the final choice. Your either indoctrinated or you fought off indoctrination and destroyed the reapers.

Why is it the more poorly you do, gathering EMS, the better chances you have of destroying the Reapers? IE, you don't bother gathering military forces and destroy is the only option presented....

Because YOU aren't worthy of the other 2 options, you never presented a strong enough presence to be considered for the JOB.

LOL, so they let you destroy them instead...

And EVERYTHING ELSE on the EARTH. Total innihilation, all allies, all life, nothing but water and dust.

Yup that's a win,............NOT!

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Again, you can't show it lying.

"Hey, grab this lightning and you can control million year old death machines!"

"Hey, jump into this f***in laser and everyone becomes a cyborg!"

"Yeah, just shoot those tubes over there, that's how to PROPERLY activate this highly advanced tech."

Symbology man, don't spare the reapers, we fight or we die.

Again, you can't show it lying.

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

He says that he is PARTLY synthetic...he never says he will die

But why say that at all if not to make dissuade you from choosing destroy?

He is explaining the problems of choosing destroy, just as with control he subtly implies that maybe the races would not be able to control the Reapers and Synthesis violates free will

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

He says that he is PARTLY synthetic...he never says he will die

But why say that at all if not to make dissuade you from choosing destroy?

The Catalyst can genuinely believe the other option(s) are better. Doesn't mean it's lying.

[SubAstris]

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

He says that he is PARTLY synthetic...he never says he will die

Shepherd's entire face is a synthetic implant.

Shepherd cannot survive without a face.

You aren't making much sense, are you saying his nose is not organic?

Shepherd's implants help Shepherd breath, eat, see, move, etc...

Try not breathing and see how long you live.

It is not said in ME3 that he relies vitally on synthetics, he has improved in his physical condition from start of ME2

Furthermore, we don't know if Shepard survives beyond the gasp, it could be his last breath, we don't know

Modifié par SubAstris, 05 mai 2012 - 09:05 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

A million years of people thinking they can control the reapers and people thinking that Organics + Synthetics is the pinnacle of evolution, only to find out they were indoctrinated.

You conveniently miss out why they failed, because they were indoctrinated. But Shepard is not, and therefore can be given power by the Catalyst

This will just go back and forth at this point.

You believe they can't control or make synthesis because they were indoctrinated.

I believe I beleive that they were indoctrinated so they THINK that they can control or make synthesis.

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 09:05 .

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Again, you can't show it lying.

"Hey, grab this lightning and you can control million year old death machines!"

"Hey, jump into this f***in laser and everyone becomes a cyborg!"

"Yeah, just shoot those tubes over there, that's how to PROPERLY activate this highly advanced tech."

Symbology man, don't spare the reapers, we fight or we die.

Again, you can't show it lying.

I can prove he's acting ignorant to things that he knows already.

Catalyst: "What are you doing here?"

He already knows the answer to this....
And he brought you up there himself anyway with a nonsensical magic floating elevator. 

Again, you can not show that it is lying...

On a side note, you don't see the irony of critiquing a "magic floating elevator" while spending your every waking minute supporting a "charm spell" that tricked us all in our gameplay of ME3?

[OH-UP-THIS!]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

One may disagree with the Catalyst, but the logic it uses is not circular.... you may what to use a dictionary.

Wut? I think youre confused....

Like IT, just because you think it doesn't make it true.

The Catalyst doesn't use circular logic for why the Reapers do what they do.

Are you out of your mind?

read this SLOWLY...............created Synthetics to wipe out organics, to stop the organics from creating synthetics, that would destroy organics.

That hurts just typing it out. sheesh!!

[Sable Phoenix]

CavScout wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
In essence, until BioWare out and out says otherwise, the Indoctrination Theory is just as valid an interpretation of the ending as the literallist one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

... did you even read the excerpt I posted?

It doesn't make your comments anymore valid.

Just because you say so, does not make it so.  Offer something to support your claim, otherwise it's mere sound and fury, signifying nothing.

And since my comment was directly referring to the excerpt from the essay that I posted, it might behoove you to address that instead.

I addressed what you wrote.

Ugh.  No, you didn't.  Your link had zero relevance.

Once again:

One, falsifiability is a standard in scientific thinking, not literary critical analysis.  It's a standard for verifying or disproving the results of scientific experiments based on tests and observations.  Wikipedia's example: Postulate that  "all swans are white."  If you find a black swan, boom.  Falsified.  Indoctrination Theory is more akin to, say, writing an essay trying to explain what the painting on the wall in Gregor Samsa's room means in The Metamorphosis. (*) At its basic level, yes, there's something of the ass-pull to it.  Congratulations: you've just discovered basic critical writing as it's practiced by every working critic in non-video-gaming fields, every
school kid who's had to read Of Mice and Men in tenth-grade English class, and people who hang at forums to shoot the **** over random parts of the video games.  Ask a question.  So long as the answer you provide is founded on evidence in the text and is readily supportable, voila.  You have interpreted the work critically.  You get a gold star.  You're really, really, really smart.

Scientific falsifiability is irrelevant.  Scientific falsifiability is what Russell's teapot deals with explicitly.  Thus, your citation of Russell's teapot is irrelevant.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

A million years of people thinking they can control the reapers and people thinking that Organics + Synthetics is the pinnacle of evolution, only to find out they were indoctrinated.

You conveniently miss out why they failed, because they were indoctrinated. But Shepard is not, and therefore can be given power by the Catalyst

You believe they can't control or make synthesis because they were indoctrinated.

I don't believe, I know, because it is stated explicitly in the game

[CavScout]

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

The game ends when you make the final choice. Your either indoctrinated or you fought off indoctrination and destroyed the reapers.

Why is it the more poorly you do, gathering EMS, the better chances you have of destroying the Reapers? IE, you don't bother gathering military forces and destroy is the only option presented....

Because YOU aren't worthy of the other 2 options, you never presented a strong enough presence to be considered for the JOB.

LOL, so they let you destroy them instead...

And EVERYTHING ELSE on the EARTH. Total innihilation, all allies, all life, nothing but water and dust.

Yup that's a win,............NOT!

They let you destroy them. You win. It may be pyrrhic but it's still a win.

[SubAstris]

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

One may disagree with the Catalyst, but the logic it uses is not circular.... you may what to use a dictionary.

Wut? I think youre confused....

Like IT, just because you think it doesn't make it true.

The Catalyst doesn't use circular logic for why the Reapers do what they do.

Are you out of your mind?

read this SLOWLY...............created Synthetics to wipe out organics, to stop the organics from creating synthetics, that would destroy organics.

That hurts just typing it out. sheesh!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

He says that he is PARTLY synthetic...he never says he will die

But why say that at all if not to make dissuade you from choosing destroy?

He is explaining the problems of choosing destroy, just as with control he subtly implies that maybe the races would not be able to control the Reapers and Synthesis violates free will

Actually he says absolutly nothing negative about control or synthesis besides that you will die. Don't make stuff up dude.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

One may disagree with the Catalyst, but the logic it uses is not circular.... you may what to use a dictionary.

Wut? I think youre confused....

Like IT, just because you think it doesn't make it true.

The Catalyst doesn't use circular logic for why the Reapers do what they do.

Are you out of your mind?

read this SLOWLY...............created Synthetics to wipe out organics, to stop the organics from creating synthetics, that would destroy organics.

That hurts just typing it out. sheesh!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

How about you actually reply instead of copy pasting something unrelated.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

A million years of people thinking they can control the reapers and people thinking that Organics + Synthetics is the pinnacle of evolution, only to find out they were indoctrinated.

You conveniently miss out why they failed, because they were indoctrinated. But Shepard is not, and therefore can be given power by the Catalyst

You believe they can't control or make synthesis because they were indoctrinated.

I don't believe, I know, because it is stated explicitly in the game

By a reaper.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Catalyst says Shepherd will die due to his synthetic implant if he chooses destroy.

Shepherd doesn't die in destroy


Catalyst found to be lying.

Undeniable evidence.

He says that he is PARTLY synthetic...he never says he will die

But why say that at all if not to make dissuade you from choosing destroy?

He is explaining the problems of choosing destroy, just as with control he subtly implies that maybe the races would not be able to control the Reapers and Synthesis violates free will

Actually he says absolutly nothing negative about control or synthesis besides that you will die. Don't make stuff up dude.

Doesn't say anything explicitly about Synthesis, but definitely gives reason for potential problems with control, "if you think you can control us"

[dreamgazer]

CavScout wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
In essence, until BioWare out and out says otherwise, the Indoctrination Theory is just as valid an interpretation of the ending as the literallist one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

You could argue that "the ending should be taken literally" is also a theory at this point.  Therefore, you have two conflicting theories that both require a burden of proof.

You didn't read the link, did you?

Sure did, several days ago actually with someone posing the same argument. 

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Again, you can't show it lying.

"Hey, grab this lightning and you can control million year old death machines!"

"Hey, jump into this f***in laser and everyone becomes a cyborg!"

"Yeah, just shoot those tubes over there, that's how to PROPERLY activate this highly advanced tech."

Symbology man, don't spare the reapers, we fight or we die.

Again, you can't show it lying.

I can prove he's acting ignorant to things that he knows already.

Catalyst: "What are you doing here?"

He already knows the answer to this....
And he brought you up there himself anyway with a nonsensical magic floating elevator. 

Again, you can not show that it is lying...

On a side note, you don't see the irony of critiquing a "magic floating elevator" while spending your every waking minute supporting a "charm spell" that tricked us all in our gameplay of ME3?

No magic in the ME universe.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

A million years of people thinking they can control the reapers and people thinking that Organics + Synthetics is the pinnacle of evolution, only to find out they were indoctrinated.

You conveniently miss out why they failed, because they were indoctrinated. But Shepard is not, and therefore can be given power by the Catalyst

You believe they can't control or make synthesis because they were indoctrinated.

I don't believe, I know, because it is stated explicitly in the game

By a reaper.

He is not a Reaper. He controls the Reapers. Evidence in game

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...
Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

You're making several assumptions:

A) You assume "control" means 100% active, every action control.
You assume the Catalyst is active and monitoring the Citadel.
C) You assume the Catalyst is in control of the Citadel.
D) You assume the Catalyst can doing anything beyond what is shown when the Crucible is attached.