1357 réponses à ce sujet

[OH-UP-THIS!]

CavScout wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Shep and Anderson appear pretty lucid in the scene. They have lost control of the bodies, not their minds.

Are you this daft all the time or just in here?

I would hope it is the latter, otherwise you live on SS and have no other life but in here.

To rebutt your last *thought*, what controls your body? in your case it sounds like what you sit on, amiright?

You must really being feeling as if you're in a untenable position. What else explains your expansive use of ad hominems?

Fact is, Anderson and Shep have lost control of the bodies but not their minds. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary... or just keep attacking me if it makes you feel better.

Ok I'll ask you AGAIN, what controls the BODY?? think slowly now, it might evade you.

[AlexMBrennan]

Please make it stop..

Scientific falsifiability is what Russell's teapot deals with explicitly. Thus, your citation of Russell's teapot is irrelevant.

What does that even mean?

Re OP.

No one remeber that time Shepard tried to prove something without solid proof, just proof to support his theory?

So, you're using the fact that a fictional character, written (presumably) to be an idiot, doesn't know about logic to support your argument? Is that supposed to be some clever meta-troll logic?

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

You're making several assumptions:

A) You assume "control" means 100% active, every action control.
You assume the Catalyst is active and monitoring the Citadel.
C) You assume the Catalyst is in control of the Citadel.
D) You assume the Catalyst can doing anything beyond what is shown when the Crucible is attached.

A) no, but i assume it doesn't mean control in an abstract manner.. i assume it has to be at least in communication with the reapers some of the time?
At some point, yeah. if not, why not?
C) The Citadel is a part of the Catalyst. If it doesn't control the Citadel, why doesn't it?
D) Yes, because otherwise it's useless. It says the reapers are its solution, and that it controls them, so surely it must have SOME influence and SOME contact with them?

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Cavscout did you choose control?or Synthesis?

I selected destroy. Why?

Really? i remember you passionately defending synthesis as the superior option a couple of weeks ago? Why the change? (from destroy --> synthesis, or from synthesis --> destroy)

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


You just said -

"definitely gives reason for potential problems with control, ""if you think you can control us" 

What's the potential problem beside NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE REAPERS?

Sorry, I'm not with you

K, I'll go slowly.

I was saying that he only says negative things about destroy.

Your rebuttal was the negative thing he says about control was  "if you think you can control us" is meant to imply that there are potential problems with this.

My question to you is what "problems" are implied by the starkid when it comes to control?

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 09:29 .

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...
You know if it was lying or even wanted to lie, it wouldn't even have bother to lift Shepard to the outside on the bottom of the Presidium. The Reapers were already winning.  In other words, why even bother to fool Shepard when it was already winning?

If it wasn't lying it had no reason to bring Shepard upstairs either. The only answer that makes sense is indoctrination.

No, it's not the "only" answer. It could, be as the game plays out, Shep makes it the Crucible and the Catalyst simply gives him the available options.

he only "makes it" up there, because the Starchild chooses to bring Shepard upstairs. If it isn't the only answer that makes sense, what is another one?

Did you forget the whole bit about how the Crucible changed the Catalyst?

[Leafs43]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Cavscout did you choose control?or Synthesis?

I selected destroy. Why?

Really? i remember you passionately defending synthesis as the superior option a couple of weeks ago? Why the change? (from destroy --> synthesis, or from synthesis --> destroy)

He has to make his argument seem credible by choosing the one option that hasn't been completely obliterated by logic.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

It is incredibly useful. Clearly this commenter doesn't know what a basic fallacy s/he is making

It's unrelated because this commentator is right.

The reapers, don't want organics to be killed by sythetics, so they kill organics so they don't make synthetics. Sounds like they just don't want any competition to me.

That is an over-simplification of the purpose of the Reapers. They kill advanced organic life so that it can't be at a stage where it creates AI capable of killing all life in the universe (kinda like the "Grey Goo Theory"). Your misunderstand of the basis of the Reapers might be the one of the main reasons you like IT.

The metacon war shows that they have gotten to that stage before and organics resolved it on they're own, rendering the starkids purpose for the reapers usleless and based on an event that MAY happen.

First of, that's not even talked about in the game.

You might be able to point out an example where organics did manage to put down the threat, but that doesn't disprove the Catalyst. Over an infinite amount of time, it is likely that organics will create synthetics which they cannot control, and remember, this only has to happen once for all life to be destroyed. And so the Catalyst have this solution to stop that, the Reapers

[CavScout]

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You must really being feeling as if you're in a untenable position. What else explains your expansive use of ad hominems?

Fact is, Anderson and Shep have lost control of the bodies but not their minds. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary... or just keep attacking me if it makes you feel better.

Ok I'll ask you AGAIN, what controls the BODY?? think slowly now, it might evade you.

Are you claiming that the entire scene with Shep, Anderson and TIM was controled by the Reapers/TIM because Anderson and Shep weren't in control of their minds?

[balance5050]

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Shep and Anderson appear pretty lucid in the scene. They have lost control of the bodies, not their minds.

Are you this daft all the time or just in here?

I would hope it is the latter, otherwise you live on SS and have no other life but in here.

To rebutt your last *thought*, what controls your body? in your case it sounds like what you sit on, amiright?

You must really being feeling as if you're in a untenable position. What else explains your expansive use of ad hominems?

Fact is, Anderson and Shep have lost control of the bodies but not their minds. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary... or just keep attacking me if it makes you feel better.

Ok I'll ask you AGAIN, what controls the BODY?? think slowly now, it might evade you.

You make me laugh:D. It's hard dealing with husks.

[ev76]

Cavscout Good your not indoctrinated.

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...
You know if it was lying or even wanted to lie, it wouldn't even have bother to lift Shepard to the outside on the bottom of the Presidium. The Reapers were already winning.  In other words, why even bother to fool Shepard when it was already winning?

If it wasn't lying it had no reason to bring Shepard upstairs either. The only answer that makes sense is indoctrination.

No, it's not the "only" answer. It could, be as the game plays out, Shep makes it the Crucible and the Catalyst simply gives him the available options.

he only "makes it" up there, because the Starchild chooses to bring Shepard upstairs. If it isn't the only answer that makes sense, what is another one?

Did you forget the whole bit about how the Crucible changed the Catalyst?

No. He says that when presenting the options. The Crucible changed the Citadel, its body, giving it these options. It's a hardware change.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


You just said -

"definitely gives reason for potential problems with control, ""if you think you can control us" 

What's the potential problem beside NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE REAPERS?

Sorry, I'm not with you

K, I'll go slowly.

I was saying that he only says negative things about destroy.

Your rebuttal was the negative thing he says about control was  "if you think you can control us" is meant to imply that there are potential problems with this.

My question to you is what "problems" are implied by the starkid when it comes to control?

A possibility of mismanagement by organics of the Reapers which means that the machines can rebel against them and ultimately kill all organics

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You're making several assumptions:

A) You assume "control" means 100% active, every action control.
You assume the Catalyst is active and monitoring the Citadel.
C) You assume the Catalyst is in control of the Citadel.
D) You assume the Catalyst can doing anything beyond what is shown when the Crucible is attached.

A) no, but i assume it doesn't mean control in an abstract manner.. i assume it has to be at least in communication with the reapers some of the time?
At some point, yeah. if not, why not?
C) The Citadel is a part of the Catalyst. If it doesn't control the Citadel, why doesn't it?
D) Yes, because otherwise it's useless. It says the reapers are its solution, and that it controls them, so surely it must have SOME influence and SOME contact with them?

Why can't you just say "Yes, I am making assumption that conveniently support my point of view"?

You are ascribing powers not in evidence in the series.

[DTKT]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

It is incredibly useful. Clearly this commenter doesn't know what a basic fallacy s/he is making

It's unrelated because this commentator is right.

The reapers, don't want organics to be killed by sythetics, so they kill organics so they don't make synthetics. Sounds like they just don't want any competition to me.

That is an over-simplification of the purpose of the Reapers. They kill advanced organic life so that it can't be at a stage where it creates AI capable of killing all life in the universe (kinda like the "Grey Goo Theory"). Your misunderstand of the basis of the Reapers might be the one of the main reasons you like IT.

The metacon war shows that they have gotten to that stage before and organics resolved it on they're own, rendering the starkids purpose for the reapers usleless and based on an event that MAY happen.

First of, that's not even talked about in the game.

You might be able to point out an example where organics did manage to put down the threat, but that doesn't disprove the Catalyst. Over an infinite amount of time, it is likely that organics will create synthetics which they cannot control, and remember, this only has to happen once for all life to be destroyed. And so the Catalyst have this solution to stop that, the Reapers

It's still a pretty dumb solution since it just created the same cycle over and over.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that neither of the two camps will convince anyone. Just drop the subject and wait for the EC in June.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What are you on? You have no proof the Catalyst is lying on purpose

You have no reason to trust this self confessed killer of countless trillions, who has killed the Earthchild, probed your mind and selected that very same image, the one that's been haunting your dreams, and worn it.

That is not evidence that he is lying.... not trusting someone is not proof that they are lying...

And yet you follow it's suggestions, we have a real winner in this one.

[AlexMBrennan]

Ok I'll ask you AGAIN, what controls the BODY?

Well, evidently not the mind or else Shepard would not be able to resist the command to shoot Anderson (or whatever happens in that scene).

OK, you want me to say "the mind" but that's silly. Firstly, it's a fictional universe. Real world neuroscience is kinda irrelevant.
If you want to go down that road anyway, the answer is "electrical impulses" - unless, of course, you'd prefer to argue that pacemakers are impossible.

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Cavscout did you choose control?or Synthesis?

I selected destroy. Why?

Really? i remember you passionately defending synthesis as the superior option a couple of weeks ago? Why the change? (from destroy --> synthesis, or from synthesis --> destroy)

Are you lying or purposively misremembering?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

It is incredibly useful. Clearly this commenter doesn't know what a basic fallacy s/he is making

It's unrelated because this commentator is right.

The reapers, don't want organics to be killed by sythetics, so they kill organics so they don't make synthetics. Sounds like they just don't want any competition to me.

That is an over-simplification of the purpose of the Reapers. They kill advanced organic life so that it can't be at a stage where it creates AI capable of killing all life in the universe (kinda like the "Grey Goo Theory"). Your misunderstand of the basis of the Reapers might be the one of the main reasons you like IT.

The metacon war shows that they have gotten to that stage before and organics resolved it on they're own, rendering the starkids purpose for the reapers usleless and based on an event that MAY happen.

First of, that's not even talked about in the game.

You might be able to point out an example where organics did manage to put down the threat, but that doesn't disprove the Catalyst. Over an infinite amount of time, it is likely that organics will create synthetics which they cannot control, and remember, this only has to happen once for all life to be destroyed. And so the Catalyst have this solution to stop that, the Reapers

With an unlimited amount of time mold could evolve to be the dominant species and take over everything.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME.

The point is we will never now because these reapers come and feed off of and kill every intelligent race every 50000 years. What starkid says is possible sure, but we will never know because we cant decide for ourselves.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


You just said -

"definitely gives reason for potential problems with control, ""if you think you can control us" 

What's the potential problem beside NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE REAPERS?

Sorry, I'm not with you

K, I'll go slowly.

I was saying that he only says negative things about destroy.

Your rebuttal was the negative thing he says about control was  "if you think you can control us" is meant to imply that there are potential problems with this.

My question to you is what "problems" are implied by the starkid when it comes to control?

A possibility of mismanagement by organics of the Reapers which means that the machines can rebel against them and ultimately kill all organics

Derp.

You got all that from the word think? I think you might be grasping at that one SubAstris.....

[OH-UP-THIS!]

KingZayd wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.

Yet, you are clearly wrong.

Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.

May I add something to this?

Subsequently, mind controls the body, hence shooting Anderson was NOT our idea, but TIM/Reaper, control!

this is true: however, Shepard's mind wasn't being controlled in that scene. He was arguing with TIM and was even able to convince him to shoot his brains out. Unless you believe TIM secretly wanted to die/ The Reapers wanted their pawn to die. Could be interesting if it was meant to be a whole: Darth Sidious convincing Anakin to kill Count Dookou thing. I'm not sure why they'd do that though?

The body control can't be done without the mind control. And in that that level of mind control causes serious damage. Shepard doesn't seem particularly clever afterwards, but i wouldn't say he's had serious brain damage.

Which GAME is that? It isn't ME3, so point lost, AGAIN ugh, moments of RESISTANCE, clear thinking, it has happened throughout the entire series. Convincing someone to shoot themselves, is both people resisting indoc, and REALIZING TIM screwed up. How hard is that to get thru??

I truly am worried about the stability of some of our members here.

Wait so i'm not allowed to refer to things outside the mass effect universe? I'm not against indoctrination theory. I'm saying that i don't think that encounter was real. I'm truly worried about the comprehension capabilities of people on this board He had enough mental clarity to argue pretty rationally with TIM, but not to prevent himself from shooting Anderson? Why does that make sense, if he was indeed awake?

oops sorry, just got away from myself there, no offence.

periodic lapses in control, plain and simple.

[balance5050]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Ok I'll ask you AGAIN, what controls the BODY?

Well, evidently not the mind or else Shepard would not be able to resist the command to shoot Anderson (or whatever happens in that scene).

OK, you want me to say "the mind" but that's silly. Firstly, it's a fictional universe. Real world neuroscience is kinda irrelevant.
If you want to go down that road anyway, the answer is "electrical impulses" - unless, of course, you'd prefer to argue that pacemakers are impossible.

"electrical impulses"  are sent from the brain.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

It is incredibly useful. Clearly this commenter doesn't know what a basic fallacy s/he is making

It's unrelated because this commentator is right.

The reapers, don't want organics to be killed by sythetics, so they kill organics so they don't make synthetics. Sounds like they just don't want any competition to me.

That is an over-simplification of the purpose of the Reapers. They kill advanced organic life so that it can't be at a stage where it creates AI capable of killing all life in the universe (kinda like the "Grey Goo Theory"). Your misunderstand of the basis of the Reapers might be the one of the main reasons you like IT.

The metacon war shows that they have gotten to that stage before and organics resolved it on they're own, rendering the starkids purpose for the reapers usleless and based on an event that MAY happen.

First of, that's not even talked about in the game.

You might be able to point out an example where organics did manage to put down the threat, but that doesn't disprove the Catalyst. Over an infinite amount of time, it is likely that organics will create synthetics which they cannot control, and remember, this only has to happen once for all life to be destroyed. And so the Catalyst have this solution to stop that, the Reapers

With an unlimited amount of time mold could evolve to be the dominant species and take over everything.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME.

The point is we will never now because these reapers come and feed off of and kill every intelligent race every 50000 years. What starkid says is possible sure, but we will never know because we cant decide for ourselves.

Over a very long time, the Catalyst deems it less likely that a mould could evolve and try to kill all dominant species (and have the same weaknesses of every other organic whih would dramatically reduce the chances of that) than an advanced synthetic race

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


You just said -

"definitely gives reason for potential problems with control, ""if you think you can control us" 

What's the potential problem beside NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE REAPERS?

Sorry, I'm not with you

K, I'll go slowly.

I was saying that he only says negative things about destroy.

Your rebuttal was the negative thing he says about control was  "if you think you can control us" is meant to imply that there are potential problems with this.

My question to you is what "problems" are implied by the starkid when it comes to control?

A possibility of mismanagement by organics of the Reapers which means that the machines can rebel against them and ultimately kill all organics

Actually that's the problem with destroy not control. You ok?

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


You just said -

"definitely gives reason for potential problems with control, ""if you think you can control us" 

What's the potential problem beside NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE REAPERS?

Sorry, I'm not with you

K, I'll go slowly.

I was saying that he only says negative things about destroy.

Your rebuttal was the negative thing he says about control was  "if you think you can control us" is meant to imply that there are potential problems with this.

My question to you is what "problems" are implied by the starkid when it comes to control?

But that is simply false. It says that Control will cause Shep to "loses everything he has". It also warns of the losses of the Relays.

Modifié par CavScout, 05 mai 2012 - 09:40 .