1357 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What?
He make a plan to control the course of galactic life and the corroputive salution he want is to control the course of galaxtic  life..........That clearly a god feature.

I firmly believe that the Catalyst is an AI, and so he was created by someone at some point. And that "his plan", is actually "his program", and he is bound to follow it. His logic is pretty similar to Javik's logic - about synthetics -, so I guess it's plausible that he was created to preserve the organics by a race with thoughts 
toward the machines similar to the Prothean.

A very base less theory...This is nothing pointing to this. There is more point to the fact that the Star child is in charge...Even more things pointing to the fact that the Star child maybe lieing.

Actually since the Starchild is an AI, it's definitely probably that someone created him at some point. Sure, the Starchild seems to be in charge NOW, but that wouldn't necessarily always be the case. Someone built the Citadel too. The reapers believe they did, but the Starchild who says the Citadel is a part of him, says that the reapers are his solution.

No, not on the fact the AI was created...The fact that he is doing all this asa continiuation of his based programing from the time he was made. We don't know his origin, we can't say anything on it.

I'm pretty sure whoever it's creators are, it rebelled since they aren't around.. (unless of course it's the keepers which would be weird. Not that I believe it, but it's a possibility I probably shouldn't ignore) If it rebelled against it's masters, it's quite likely that what it's not following a directive, but choosing its own (again unless its reason for rebelling was a strict adherence to some robot laws that it actively can't disobey).

But we don't know the full story.
As we seen with the geth ...It's not...

organics make suithetic...
Blank..
Sinthetic rebel ageint organic.
Something some thing...
Sinthetics win....
......
There are reasons to motivate the synthetics to rebel, events that added reason o he synthetics wining and organic losing and reason to why the sinthetics act the way they do now.....

Consider the fact that the synthetic victory was pyrrhic.

True. But then we never do know the full story.

Personally I think that, if this Starchild is real (which I don't believe), then it's assumption that the created will ALWAYS rebel against the creators to me sounds as if it's excusing itself, and rationalising that things couldn't have turned out differently.

Which synthetic victory was pyrrhic, and why?

Remeber how the world was like in the cold war with USA vs Russia....Now imation that with the galexy with organics and synthetics....Imation the weapons they could of made, remeber, a mass relay  when blown up can destroy systems....Imagine one side agenst another lining up super weapons at one another and then one day war will break out....And only a few on ether side live through it...with systems left to harmful for any life to sustain in.....
That would be the pyrrhic victory I'm referring too. The synthetic would win because they have a better chance of servive an end results like that and organic would die off on their own with no final boot from synthetics.

I understand what a pyrrhic victory is. I'm just not sure why the synthetic victory would be pyrrhic? 

What if the reapers resons for doing what they are doing now is out of guilt and understand how destructive an organic and synthetic war can be at it's full capacity.

[ThinkIntegral]

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so either the crucible was able to reprogram an AI that nobody knew was there, or it makes the Catalyst stupid by hogging resources... kinda like firefox?

Apparently someone knew it was there because the plans for the Crucible at some point in time included the Catalyst.  Second, I have no idea how you get the hogging resources idea from some change in logical gates.  In any case the details of how it does it have kind of a low relevancy.  Based on what we know the Crucible does something to the Catalyst because it explicitly says so, it gives you three choices, and you're talking to it.

i got that from the case that nobody did program it, and there was some sort of accidental change to the personality.

The Starchild said that no organic had ever been there before. How would anyone discover it's presence and create a a device capable of reprogramming the catalyst.

The change is merely this addition of a crucible that allows 3 options. This is why he says "the crucible changed me" not when he's explaining that the old solution won't work anymore, but before he tells you what the new possibilities are.

The device was designed to work with the Citadel. Not an AI nobody knew about. Otherwise surely the Starchild would be able to activate the Crucible itself?

Uh huh.  Well logical gates aren't like hogging resources.

That's an unknown and more or less unimportant because all that matters is that at some point the Catalyst was included in the design of the Crucible and the two combined stop the Reapers.

So you're limiting change to that?  I don't even know why you're singling that out.

You have no conclusive knowledge of whether previous civilizations knew there was an AI there or not.  Just because they [the current cycle] don't know it, doesn't exclude the possibility that some previous civilization did. Everyone in the current cycle has no idea how the Crucible works, but that doesn't exclude that some previous civilization did. Plus, just because you build a device to interact with another device doesn't per se mean that the other has the ability to manipulate it. The design and intent of the creators dictate that.

But why even bring that up? Again, I have no idea what you're trying show.

Modifié par ThinkIntegral, 06 mai 2012 - 07:27 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

OH ok let's just call it *space-magic* then ok?

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



1) Difference is indoctrination is a personal, mental disease
2) Still amounts to a few hours. And if that is so, why aren't Joker and all the Crew also indoctrinated?

1.No...It not... Read the codex...
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 


Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. 

Cleary, it's a disortion of the mind via physical and subliminal means. That is what IT is stating.

2. Not a few hours...Their is no way to caluclate the time not do we have the show of intecidy of waves use. Time and intecity is a factor that causes indoctrination and it was stated in ME1, shown even more in ME:evolution. Remeber, their is fast and slow indoctrination and it can be balenced.
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. 

......Also, you have to note that the theory states that Shepard is in the process of indoctrination meaning the reapers are still trying to indoctrinated Shepard at the end of the game. The theory stated Harbinger is over Shepard uncounsuious body  focusing indoctination wave in an attempt to finish the indoctrination.

1) What you linked to doesn't invalidate what I said
2) "intecidy"- WTF? Do you mean "intensity"? We know that the faster the indoctrination, the more likely. The fact that there is no way to calculate works against IT, since we don't even know if it would be possible without melting his brains

That's totally evident during the scene where Shep shoots Anderson, as TIM is showing THE POWER it HAS, instantly Shep shoots Anderson, and during the scene the INDOCTRINATION black-oily visuals appear, along with I might add, the Reaper-growl.

But Indoctrination is brain washing. The subjects do things willingly although they wouldn't have done so before. Shepard couldn't control his arm but he was still Shepard, mentally.

TIM's control is not Indoctrination.

And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

[DarthSliver]

AlexXIV wrote...

There is the plain fact that if the IT was true then Bioware should have resolved it in game. Aka showing the player/obvserver that it was an indoctrination attempt. Though the ending as it is suggests that everything we saw actually happened. It doesn't matter how much sense the IT makes. And I am surely not anti IT. But the ending (post catalyst decision) does not support it.

This is the greatest arguement against IT, if it was true than it wouldve been resolved in the endgame not have the fans come up with a way so they can keep playing ME3. Thats all IT is at this point in my opinion a Theory to help the masses keep playing ME3 or the ME series. I havent touched ME3 since i beat the game, id rather have DCU freeze my PS3 up than deal with ME3 ending.  So yeah thats how the endings affected me, id rather destroy my ps3 with restarts from game freezes than deal with the ending again. 

If IT was true than why wasnt it resolved in the end, yes they like to leave us hanging but this was thelast in the Shepard story and there wouldve been more of a closure and a bigger hint that it was IT making it more obivious for the masses. IT is a sounded theory i admit but the problem is if it was true IT wouldve been more revealed/hinted at in the ending being made a bit more obivious if not plainly obivious.

[LaZy i IS]

@OP
The IT is derived using circular logic and evidence that is at best, circumstantial.

[DarthSliver]

LaZy i IS wrote...

@OP
The IT is derived using circular logic and evidence that is at best, circumstantial.

IT at this point like said in my last post a theory created by the fans to help them deal with the ending and keep them able to play ME3 or the ME series over. If IT was true it wouldve been made plainly obivious or hinted at bigger than it was. 

[KingZayd]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so either the crucible was able to reprogram an AI that nobody knew was there, or it makes the Catalyst stupid by hogging resources... kinda like firefox?

Apparently someone knew it was there because the plans for the Crucible at some point in time included the Catalyst.  Second, I have no idea how you get the hogging resources idea from some change in logical gates.  In any case the details of how it does it have kind of a low relevancy.  Based on what we know the Crucible does something to the Catalyst because it explicitly says so, it gives you three choices, and you're talking to it.

i got that from the case that nobody did program it, and there was some sort of accidental change to the personality.

The Starchild said that no organic had ever been there before. How would anyone discover it's presence and create a a device capable of reprogramming the catalyst.

The change is merely this addition of a crucible that allows 3 options. This is why he says "the crucible changed me" not when he's explaining that the old solution won't work anymore, but before he tells you what the new possibilities are.

The device was designed to work with the Citadel. Not an AI nobody knew about. Otherwise surely the Starchild would be able to activate the Crucible itself?

Uh huh.  Well logical gates aren't like hogging resources.

That's an unknown and more or less unimportant because all that matters is that at some point the Catalyst was included in the design of the Crucible and the two combined stop the Reapers.

So you're limiting change to that?  I don't even know why you're singling that out.

You have no conclusive knowledge of whether previous civilizations knew there was an AI there.  Just because they don't know it, doesn't exclude the possibility that some previous civilization did. Everyone in the current cycle had no idea how the Crucible works. Plus, just because you build a device to interact with another device doesn't per se mean that the other has the ability to manipulate it. The design and intent of the creators dictate that.

But why even bring that up? Again, I have no idea what you're trying show.

I was addressing the only way I could think of that there could be some accidental change in personality. That's where i got resource hogging from.

He mentions the change only when he's saying there are now possiblities. He gives no indication that the change affects his personality or compels him. This is something that you've been saying.

He tells us that no organics have been there before. So tell me please, how did someone design the crucible to interact with this AI that nobody knew was there? or perhaps suggest a way they could have figured out there was an AI there?

The catalyst needed to complete the crucible is the Citadel. Unless you can tell me why the AI is needed for this device to work?

[LaZy i IS]

DarthSliver wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

@OP
The IT is derived using circular logic and evidence that is at best, circumstantial.

IT at this point like said in my last post a theory created by the fans to help them deal with the ending and keep them able to play ME3 or the ME series over. If IT was true it wouldve been made plainly obivious or hinted at bigger than it was. 

Yeah. Well put.
Also, most of the "evidence" for IT has a much simpler non-IT explanation.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so either the crucible was able to reprogram an AI that nobody knew was there, or it makes the Catalyst stupid by hogging resources... kinda like firefox?

Apparently someone knew it was there because the plans for the Crucible at some point in time included the Catalyst.  Second, I have no idea how you get the hogging resources idea from some change in logical gates.  In any case the details of how it does it have kind of a low relevancy.  Based on what we know the Crucible does something to the Catalyst because it explicitly says so, it gives you three choices, and you're talking to it.

i got that from the case that nobody did program it, and there was some sort of accidental change to the personality.

The Starchild said that no organic had ever been there before. How would anyone discover it's presence and create a a device capable of reprogramming the catalyst.

The change is merely this addition of a crucible that allows 3 options. This is why he says "the crucible changed me" not when he's explaining that the old solution won't work anymore, but before he tells you what the new possibilities are.

The device was designed to work with the Citadel. Not an AI nobody knew about. Otherwise surely the Starchild would be able to activate the Crucible itself?

Uh huh.  Well logical gates aren't like hogging resources.

That's an unknown and more or less unimportant because all that matters is that at some point the Catalyst was included in the design of the Crucible and the two combined stop the Reapers.

So you're limiting change to that?  I don't even know why you're singling that out.

You have no conclusive knowledge of whether previous civilizations knew there was an AI there.  Just because they don't know it, doesn't exclude the possibility that some previous civilization did. Everyone in the current cycle had no idea how the Crucible works. Plus, just because you build a device to interact with another device doesn't per se mean that the other has the ability to manipulate it. The design and intent of the creators dictate that.

But why even bring that up? Again, I have no idea what you're trying show.

We went into this battle NOT knowing what the Crucible did, nor did we even know what the Catalyst was, so we were "flying blind" , at one point we discovered that the Citadel was the catalyst(not Star-twit), and by combining the Crucible with the Citadel, we then discover, much to OUR dismay, 'Star-twit' appears, along with some bosh'tet reasoning, regarding the intentions and final outcome of said union.

Then Star-twit explains, Shep was the first Organic, to have gotten that far, so how could WE have known what that brats intentions were, if NOBODY had been there before?

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

[KingZayd]

DarthSliver wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

There is the plain fact that if the IT was true then Bioware should have resolved it in game. Aka showing the player/obvserver that it was an indoctrination attempt. Though the ending as it is suggests that everything we saw actually happened. It doesn't matter how much sense the IT makes. And I am surely not anti IT. But the ending (post catalyst decision) does not support it.

This is the greatest arguement against IT, if it was true than it wouldve been resolved in the endgame not have the fans come up with a way so they can keep playing ME3. Thats all IT is at this point in my opinion a Theory to help the masses keep playing ME3 or the ME series. I havent touched ME3 since i beat the game, id rather have DCU freeze my PS3 up than deal with ME3 ending.  So yeah thats how the endings affected me, id rather destroy my ps3 with restarts from game freezes than deal with the ending again. 

If IT was true than why wasnt it resolved in the end, yes they like to leave us hanging but this was thelast in the Shepard story and there wouldve been more of a closure and a bigger hint that it was IT making it more obivious for the masses. IT is a sounded theory i admit but the problem is if it was true IT wouldve been more revealed/hinted at in the ending being made a bit more obivious if not plainly obivious.

I think that "One more story" thing was meant to be a veiled hint. I don't think a retake Omega DLC is what it's referring to. "That's the story of how Shepard beat the reapers. But I also have another story where he joins a gang!"

But yeah I agree, if it is indeed IT. their handling of it kinda sucks. 

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 mai 2012 - 07:37 .

[KingZayd]

LaZy i IS wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

@OP
The IT is derived using circular logic and evidence that is at best, circumstantial.

IT at this point like said in my last post a theory created by the fans to help them deal with the ending and keep them able to play ME3 or the ME series over. If IT was true it wouldve been made plainly obivious or hinted at bigger than it was. 

Yeah. Well put.
Also, most of the "evidence" for IT has a much simpler non-IT explanation.

typically it's "bad writing" which could be applied to counter interpretation of the story.

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

I'm trying to point out there aren't as many reasonable explanations as you think. Sure with enough handwaving you can get something that works, but you end up making the entire story convoluted and the reapers laughable.

Coming from an IT proponent, this is laughable.

Modifié par CavScout, 06 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[dreman9999]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 mai 2012 - 07:41 .

[LaZy i IS]

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so either the crucible was able to reprogram an AI that nobody knew was there, or it makes the Catalyst stupid by hogging resources... kinda like firefox?

Apparently someone knew it was there because the plans for the Crucible at some point in time included the Catalyst.  Second, I have no idea how you get the hogging resources idea from some change in logical gates.  In any case the details of how it does it have kind of a low relevancy.  Based on what we know the Crucible does something to the Catalyst because it explicitly says so, it gives you three choices, and you're talking to it.

i got that from the case that nobody did program it, and there was some sort of accidental change to the personality.

The Starchild said that no organic had ever been there before. How would anyone discover it's presence and create a a device capable of reprogramming the catalyst.

The change is merely this addition of a crucible that allows 3 options. This is why he says "the crucible changed me" not when he's explaining that the old solution won't work anymore, but before he tells you what the new possibilities are.

The device was designed to work with the Citadel. Not an AI nobody knew about. Otherwise surely the Starchild would be able to activate the Crucible itself?

Uh huh.  Well logical gates aren't like hogging resources.

That's an unknown and more or less unimportant because all that matters is that at some point the Catalyst was included in the design of the Crucible and the two combined stop the Reapers.

So you're limiting change to that?  I don't even know why you're singling that out.

You have no conclusive knowledge of whether previous civilizations knew there was an AI there.  Just because they don't know it, doesn't exclude the possibility that some previous civilization did. Everyone in the current cycle had no idea how the Crucible works. Plus, just because you build a device to interact with another device doesn't per se mean that the other has the ability to manipulate it. The design and intent of the creators dictate that.

But why even bring that up? Again, I have no idea what you're trying show.

I was addressing the only way I could think of that there could be some accidental change in personality. That's where i got resource hogging from.

He mentions the change only when he's saying there are now possiblities. He gives no indication that the change affects his personality or compels him. This is something that you've been saying.

He tells us that no organics have been there before. So tell me please, how did someone design the crucible to interact with this AI that nobody knew was there? or perhaps suggest a way they could have figured out there was an AI there?

The catalyst needed to complete the crucible is the Citadel. Unless you can tell me why the AI is needed for this device to work?

Chorban found out abot the keeper's origins and  that they are programmed to do something every 50000 years just by scanning 21 of them. Who's to say someone couldn't have found out about the AI without going there?


The Catalyst is the AI. Dialogue: "I am the Catalyst, the Citadel is a part of me". 
Since the Crucible uses the relay system, the Citadel being the main relay, it seems pretty likely that the AI is needed for the Crucible to fire across the relay system.

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 mai 2012 - 07:41 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

DarthSliver wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

@OP
The IT is derived using circular logic and evidence that is at best, circumstantial.

IT at this point like said in my last post a theory created by the fans to help them deal with the ending and keep them able to play ME3 or the ME series over. If IT was true it wouldve been made plainly obivious or hinted at bigger than it was. 

The whole premise behind IT, isn't so much to play more ME3, but to try to understand the non=sensical "ending".

Answer me this, Where is the epilogue stating what happened to everyTHING/everyONE, in the final 5 minutes?

We recieved no such consideration from Bioware, they STOPPED the game without any information regarding the denouement.

We were left hanging, no CLOSURE, nothing but a BUY DLC slap in the face!@!!!!

And before formulating an answer, remember that there will be NO post-game DLC, except the EC. Which wasn't planned to begin with.

[KingZayd]

LaZy i IS wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so either the crucible was able to reprogram an AI that nobody knew was there, or it makes the Catalyst stupid by hogging resources... kinda like firefox?

Apparently someone knew it was there because the plans for the Crucible at some point in time included the Catalyst.  Second, I have no idea how you get the hogging resources idea from some change in logical gates.  In any case the details of how it does it have kind of a low relevancy.  Based on what we know the Crucible does something to the Catalyst because it explicitly says so, it gives you three choices, and you're talking to it.

i got that from the case that nobody did program it, and there was some sort of accidental change to the personality.

The Starchild said that no organic had ever been there before. How would anyone discover it's presence and create a a device capable of reprogramming the catalyst.

The change is merely this addition of a crucible that allows 3 options. This is why he says "the crucible changed me" not when he's explaining that the old solution won't work anymore, but before he tells you what the new possibilities are.

The device was designed to work with the Citadel. Not an AI nobody knew about. Otherwise surely the Starchild would be able to activate the Crucible itself?

Uh huh.  Well logical gates aren't like hogging resources.

That's an unknown and more or less unimportant because all that matters is that at some point the Catalyst was included in the design of the Crucible and the two combined stop the Reapers.

So you're limiting change to that?  I don't even know why you're singling that out.

You have no conclusive knowledge of whether previous civilizations knew there was an AI there.  Just because they don't know it, doesn't exclude the possibility that some previous civilization did. Everyone in the current cycle had no idea how the Crucible works. Plus, just because you build a device to interact with another device doesn't per se mean that the other has the ability to manipulate it. The design and intent of the creators dictate that.

But why even bring that up? Again, I have no idea what you're trying show.

I was addressing the only way I could think of that there could be some accidental change in personality. That's where i got resource hogging from.

He mentions the change only when he's saying there are now possiblities. He gives no indication that the change affects his personality or compels him. This is something that you've been saying.

He tells us that no organics have been there before. So tell me please, how did someone design the crucible to interact with this AI that nobody knew was there? or perhaps suggest a way they could have figured out there was an AI there?

The catalyst needed to complete the crucible is the Citadel. Unless you can tell me why the AI is needed for this device to work?

Chorban found out abot the keeper's origins and  that they are programmed to do something every 50000 years just by scanning 21 of them. Who's to say someone couldn't have found out about the AI without going there?


The Catalyst is the AI. Dialogue: "I am the Catalyst, the Citadel is a part of me". 
Since the Crucible uses the relay system, the Citadel being the main relay, it seems pretty likely that the AI is needed for the Crucible to fire across the relay system.

Ok then so:
Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time? 

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I'm trying to point out there aren't as many reasonable explanations as you think. Sure with enough handwaving you can get something that works, but you end up making the entire story convoluted and the reapers laughable.

Coming from an IT proponent, this is laughable.

Since it's you who's laughing, i'll just assume it's because you don't understand again.

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[LaZy i IS]

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benza and Paul Grayson would say it'sboth... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

TIM's implants are for direct control of the body, you can clearly see that Sheperd is still him/herself even under TIM's influence, same for Anderson. Indoctrination works via exposing the brain to ElectroMagnetic radiation, to basically brainwash someone by interfering wirth brain impulses. TIM developed his implants using reaper's tech, but could also adapt it to target the spinal cord/brain stem with EM radiation, bypassing the brain and giving direct body control.

[ThinkIntegral]

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so either the crucible was able to reprogram an AI that nobody knew was there, or it makes the Catalyst stupid by hogging resources... kinda like firefox?

Apparently someone knew it was there because the plans for the Crucible at some point in time included the Catalyst.  Second, I have no idea how you get the hogging resources idea from some change in logical gates.  In any case the details of how it does it have kind of a low relevancy.  Based on what we know the Crucible does something to the Catalyst because it explicitly says so, it gives you three choices, and you're talking to it.

i got that from the case that nobody did program it, and there was some sort of accidental change to the personality.

The Starchild said that no organic had ever been there before. How would anyone discover it's presence and create a a device capable of reprogramming the catalyst.

The change is merely this addition of a crucible that allows 3 options. This is why he says "the crucible changed me" not when he's explaining that the old solution won't work anymore, but before he tells you what the new possibilities are.

The device was designed to work with the Citadel. Not an AI nobody knew about. Otherwise surely the Starchild would be able to activate the Crucible itself?

Uh huh.  Well logical gates aren't like hogging resources.

That's an unknown and more or less unimportant because all that matters is that at some point the Catalyst was included in the design of the Crucible and the two combined stop the Reapers.

So you're limiting change to that?  I don't even know why you're singling that out.

You have no conclusive knowledge of whether previous civilizations knew there was an AI there.  Just because they don't know it, doesn't exclude the possibility that some previous civilization did. Everyone in the current cycle had no idea how the Crucible works. Plus, just because you build a device to interact with another device doesn't per se mean that the other has the ability to manipulate it. The design and intent of the creators dictate that.

But why even bring that up? Again, I have no idea what you're trying show.

I was addressing the only way I could think of that there could be some accidental change in personality. That's where i got resource hogging from.

He mentions the change only when he's saying there are now possiblities. He gives no indication that the change affects his personality or compels him. This is something that you've been saying.

He tells us that no organics have been there before. So tell me please, how did someone design the crucible to interact with this AI that nobody knew was there? or perhaps suggest a way they could have figured out there was an AI there?

The catalyst needed to complete the crucible is the Citadel. Unless you can tell me why the AI is needed for this device to work?

Well as I said before...

As far as personality goes, we don't even know if it had a personality or what its personality was previously.  Kind of irrelevant.  As far as the Crucible compelling the Catalyst to do something, technically yeah it did, because otherwise you wouldn't be standing at the bottom of the Presidium talking to it about to make three choices nor would an energy bubble disperse or shoot out from the device.  Shepard would've failed and died right there in front of the console.

That detail is something you and I will never know and because of that is kind of irrelevant.  The important thing you should be focusing on is that at some point someone did; whether figuring out an AI is there and/or designing the Crucible to interface with it because Vendetta said the Citadel was incorporated into the Crucible designs.  In other words, there was a reason why.  Yes the reaso could be that they weren't aware of an AI and thought that the Citadel was an added component to disperse energy.  But the end result, the fact that you're talking to the Catalyst, that it gives you three freaking choices to choose from, and honors your choices or is forced to exercise your choice suggests there was more to the design of the Crucible.

Like Cavscout said, your problem and frustration is because you're trying to ask questions on things that you won't probably ever know even with the EC, and some of which are tangential. 

Modifié par ThinkIntegral, 06 mai 2012 - 07:52 .

[CavScout]

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
It doesn't. It clearly says Shep needs to make the next choice because it can't itself. Why pretend it had more control than it did?

To trick Shepard. Remeber, race of machines with a history of great deception.

Why do so many people just make stuff up? What evidence is there that the Catalyst was trying to "trick" Shep?