1357 réponses à ce sujet

[Agugaboo]

double post:?

Modifié par Agugaboo, 06 mai 2012 - 09:00 .

[Raiil]

Theory and hypothesis are used interchangeably in common parlance, but from a scientific standpoint, IT is, in fact, a series of hypotheses. As none of them can be empirically stated as true or false, nor do they all necessarily fit together, they remain hypotheses until they can be proven demonstrably true and linked in some fashion, in which case it becomes a full blown theory. :/

[LaZy i IS]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

This actually helps my case. What the codex describes is reaper indoctrination. It controls both the mind and body. The key is that the mind is also under control. TIM doesn't have control of Anderson or Shepard's mind, just they're bodies.

Therefore, TIM is not indoctrinating them, but using the only physical control implementation of reaper indoctrination.

There is not physical control without mental control when it comes to indotctination, purely physical control is huskification, Shepard isn't a husk. 

Indoctrination uses EM radiation to manipulate brain impulses. TIM uses reaper tech for his implants, but could target the spinal cord with EM radiation for direct body control without affecting the mind.

[Agugaboo]

LaZy i IS wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Theory: 
An idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action 

Indoctrination theory fits that definition.

As for Occam's razor, clearly we get different results from using it. 

You forgot that, also by def., theories require sound evidence. What you described is a hyothesis.

I wrote...
by definition, it is not a "Theory".

 

I took that definition from a dictionary. It's a theory.

Theory:
1.A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or
phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely
accepted.
Hypothesis:
A proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of
phenomena.

Indoc. "Theory" = Indoc. Hypothesis

Please, provide me a real-life theory that doesn't have sound evidence in support of it.

Some words have many meanings. The one your ascribing is for more narrow scientific communities:
Collins:
1.a system of rules, procedures, and assumptions used to produce a result
2.abstract knowledge or reasoning
3.a speculative or conjectural view or idea  ⇒ I have a theory about that an ideal or hypothetical situation
(esp in the phrase in theory)
4.a set of hypotheses related by logical or mathematical arguments to explain and predict
5.a wide variety of connected phenomena in general terms  ⇒ the theory of relativity
6. a nontechnical name for hypothesis (sense 1)


Merriam Webster:
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another 2: abstract thought : speculation 3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
etc.

So 1. you are correct and 2 your argument has no meaning because the use of the word theory is also correct.

Modifié par Agugaboo, 06 mai 2012 - 09:12 .

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

[balance5050]

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Before Harbinger's beam. 




 After Harbinger's beam:

Weak evidence. Before the beam there are still trees, just not on the path down the hill. Most likely explanation: Devs didn't think that people were gonna pay attention to those tiny details whilst running toward the citadel beam, and wouldn't like a tree in their way.

Actually the tree's were added in after the beam hit and you only see them if you turn around, i.e. theyre behind you after you wake up.

So they were actually added in FOR people looking for tiny details 

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

Rana Thanoptis was being controlled while the reapers were still millions of miles away. With more or less intermitent exposure.

Modifié par balance5050, 06 mai 2012 - 09:01 .

[balance5050]

LaZy i IS wrote...

Indoctrination uses EM radiation to manipulate brain impulses. TIM uses reaper tech for his implants, but could target the spinal cord with EM radiation for direct body control without affecting the mind.

I sure wish they would have said that in the game, then I would actually consider it, but the way I see it now, directing EM radiation to the specific nerves that pull the index finger riquires specific accuracy that couldn't be explained. Manipulatin the BRAIN impulses seems much more likely.

Modifié par balance5050, 06 mai 2012 - 09:04 .

[LaZy i IS]

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Before Harbinger's beam. 




 After Harbinger's beam:

Weak evidence. Before the beam there are still trees, just not on the path down the hill. Most likely explanation: Devs didn't think that people were gonna pay attention to those tiny details whilst running toward the citadel beam, and wouldn't like a tree in their way.

Actually the tree's were added in after the beam hit and you only see them if you turn around, i.e. theyre behind you after you wake up.

So they were actually added in FOR people looking for tiny details 

There were trees in the background before the beam hit. Those ones after the beam are not there for the reason I stated.
These pics only imply indoctrination if you assume indoctrination "theory" in the first place...
Circular reasoning?

[LaZy i IS]

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

Indoctrination uses EM radiation to manipulate brain impulses. TIM uses reaper tech for his implants, but could target the spinal cord with EM radiation for direct body control without affecting the mind.

I sure wish they would have said that in the game, then I would acually consider it.

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination 

Under characteristics... Given, it says "believed to be" EM waves, but still.

Edit: from Codex entry:
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

Modifié par LaZy i IS, 06 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[KingZayd]

ThinkIntegral wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

ThinkIntegral wrote...
Well as I said before...

As far as personality goes, we don't even know if it had a personality or what its personality was previously.  Kind of irrelevant.  As far as the Crucible compelling the Catalyst to do something, technically yeah it did, because otherwise you wouldn't be standing at the bottom of the Presidium talking to it about to make three choices nor would an energy bubble disperse or shoot out from the device.  Shepard would've failed and died right there in front of the console.

That detail is something you and I will never know and because of that is kind of irrelevant.  The important thing you should be focusing on is that at some point someone did; whether figuring out an AI is there and/or designing the Crucible to interface with it because Vendetta said the Citadel was incorporated into the Crucible designs.  In other words, there was a reason why.  Yes the reaso could be that they weren't aware of an AI and thought that the Citadel was an added component to disperse energy.  But the end result, the fact that you're talking to the Catalyst, that it gives you three freaking choices to choose from, and honors your choices or is forced to exercise your choice suggests there was more to the design of the Crucible.

Like Cavscout said, your problem and frustration is because you're trying to ask questions on things that you won't probably ever know even with the EC, and some of which are tangential. 

You're there because it brought you up there. It doesn't tell you why it brought you up there, and it only mentions that it's been changed when it's saying there are new possibilties. He was changed like Iron Man. new hardware, new possibilities.

It's not irrelevant. For what you're saying to make sense there has to be a way for the designers to know of the AI so they can factor it into the design. If what you're saying is true, but there isn't a way for the designers to know of the AI in the first place, then the story is nonsensical.  As for the latter part of the paragraph: "A mad man sees what he sees".  I haven't yet seen an explanation that makes sense and can address these issues, that isn't indoctrination. I'm asking you to try and address them some other way.

My problem is that I'm thinking about the story? I don't need to have all the answers, but there should at least be some plausible explanation for the story to make sense.

Yes you're there because it brought you there. Absent the Crucible, you think it would've done so otherwise?  And if so, on what grounds?  Or rather the question is, even if the Crucible worked what independent grounds show that it would've brought you there anyways?  Because it wants to "trick" you?  Why? The battle probably would've ended in the Reapers success.  Even if that's the case [because of the time limit] why does the Catalyst then let you [unless forced to let you] make a choice which results in an energy bubble and beam being dispersed?

Anyways, I'm basing my thoughts solely on what's been presented before me, and the fact that the Crucible has been premised throughout the entire ME3 storyline as the only way to stop the Reapers and that it must be combined with the Catalyst suggests if the Crucible were never connected to the Citadel, Shepard would not be standing there at the bottom of the Presidium nor would the Reapers be stopped.

Also you're taking things too literal.  It mentions change at that moment because it was relevant in that moment for Shepard to make a choice.  You know to make sure that the intended receiver [Shepard] is aware that the Crucible has made/allowed it to provide Shepard with 3 options to come up with an alternative to pruning advanced civilizations in the galaxy.  It doesn't equate to an idea that change did not occur up until that moment.

Yes it is fairly irrelevant. It's a detail that was not explored in depth so that the narrative of the story could direct you at what's important.  The Crucible plans included the design of the Catalyst/Citadel.  The fact that the Catalyst is changed after the connection, suggests someone at some point had to have known something.  Otherwise, why even include it in the plans?

You haven't seen an explanation that makes sense because you keep asking questions no one has answers to including yourself and going off on tangential points.  The relevancy is what has been laid before you in that closed box. And apparently it sounds like you do need all the answers because you keep asking about everything.

1st paragraph:
Because it's all in your head. The reason for bringing you up "there" is so that you can REJECT destruction in favour of some other option. If the option's not there, you can't reject it. You picking something else is meaningless.

3rd paragraph:
So the Starchild is a poet now? It's meant to be taken literally. The change is mentioned to bring up the new possibilities. At no point does he hint that he was forced to bring you upstairs.

4th paragraph:
there was nothing in there to change the AI, therefore nothing of the sort included in the plans. It's important that there be some sort of plausible explanation. If there isn't one, then it's nonsense. Therefore this point is relevant. Also, are we also supposed to believe that one of the earlier cycles decided that the best addition to an anti-reaper weapons was something that didn't affect the reapers (synthesis)? Why would they think that would help?

5th paragraph:
I'm not looking for THE answers. I'm looking for answers that are at least plausible. If people can't come up with plausible explanations, then that suggests there are none.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

There is not physical control without mental control when it comes to indotctination, purely physical control is huskification, Shepard isn't a husk. 

There is physical control without mental. I can hijack you're nervouse system to do what I want by sending out certain impulses. You're mind will still be yours but your actions are mine.

Husks are made from dead people so the implants take over the dead tissue. But I don't think that reapers have direct control over every single one. The only time we see a reaper have physical control over a husk was Saren after he died and the collectors.

Then you have to consider the doctor in the arrival. Some would argue that even the doctor on the research lab was also controlled by Harbinger because she had glowing yellow eyes and moved robotically just before you were knocked out. If this is the case, then Reapers can control an individual without them being husks. But I'm sure that a prerequisite for such control is that the person be brainwashed and willing to accept it.

Another reason why they can't just take over Shepard's body.

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

This actually helps my case. What the codex describes is reaper indoctrination. It controls both the mind and body. The key is that the mind is also under control. TIM doesn't have control of Anderson or Shepard's mind, just they're bodies.

Therefore, TIM is not indoctrinating them, but using the only physical control implementation of reaper indoctrination.

How? and why haven't the reapers thought of this?

[Agugaboo]

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Before Harbinger's beam. 




 After Harbinger's beam:

Weak evidence. Before the beam there are still trees, just not on the path down the hill. Most likely explanation: Devs didn't think that people were gonna pay attention to those tiny details whilst running toward the citadel beam, and wouldn't like a tree in their way.

Actually the tree's were added in after the beam hit and you only see them if you turn around, i.e. theyre behind you after you wake up.

So they were actually added in FOR people looking for tiny details 

There were trees in the background before the beam hit. Those ones after the beam are not there for the reason I stated.
These pics only imply indoctrination if you assume indoctrination "theory" in the first place...
Circular reasoning?

When you are running forward there are no trees in the valley you are running down. after you get hit they're right behind you where they weren't before. I can see how it's evidence encouraging IT. How is it circular?

[KingZayd]

Valentia X wrote...

Theory and hypothesis are used interchangeably in common parlance, but from a scientific standpoint, IT is, in fact, a series of hypotheses. As none of them can be empirically stated as true or false, nor do they all necessarily fit together, they remain hypotheses until they can be proven demonstrably true and linked in some fashion, in which case it becomes a full blown theory. :/

But what we're doing is closer to literary analysis than scientific theorising. In this subject, theory is a valid term.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

Rana Thanoptis was being controlled while the reapers were still millions of miles away. With more or less intermitent exposure.

Rana was exposed to the same indoctrination attempts that the Salarian test subjects and the person she replaced. She was already brainswashed and was left untreated. We also don't know how much reaper tech she was still in direct exposure to since her where abouts are uknown throughout the series.

[balance5050]

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

Indoctrination uses EM radiation to manipulate brain impulses. TIM uses reaper tech for his implants, but could target the spinal cord with EM radiation for direct body control without affecting the mind.

I sure wish they would have said that in the game, then I would acually consider it.

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination 

Under characteristics... Given, it says "believed to be" EM waves, but still.

Edit: from Codex entry:
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

 "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning.

Nothing about beaming the specific nerves. It's the brain, when it's purely physical, one becomes a husk.

[Agugaboo]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

This actually helps my case. What the codex describes is reaper indoctrination. It controls both the mind and body. The key is that the mind is also under control. TIM doesn't have control of Anderson or Shepard's mind, just they're bodies.

Therefore, TIM is not indoctrinating them, but using the only physical control implementation of reaper indoctrination.

How? and why haven't the reapers thought of this?

Interesting. Where in the game does it say TIM's method of control only involves the body?

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

How long did it take for TIM to control Shepard and Anderson? How close has Shepard been to reapers?

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

This actually helps my case. What the codex describes is reaper indoctrination. It controls both the mind and body. The key is that the mind is also under control. TIM doesn't have control of Anderson or Shepard's mind, just they're bodies.

Therefore, TIM is not indoctrinating them, but using the only physical control implementation of reaper indoctrination.

How? and why haven't the reapers thought of this?

For the reason's I've mentioned. It's not perfect. The subject can break free, speak his mind and make decisions. To make deep cover agents, the subject has to believe what its doing is right, or not be aware that its doing anything at all.

With TIM's method, the subject is fully aware of the control, can speak, and can make decisions. This would make terrible agents.

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

Rana Thanoptis was being controlled while the reapers were still millions of miles away. With more or less intermitent exposure.

And I think the fact that there are loads more reapers in the galaxy than just Soveign now, means the "voices" are substantially stronger

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

Rana Thanoptis was being controlled while the reapers were still millions of miles away. With more or less intermitent exposure.

Rana was exposed to the same indoctrination attempts that the Salarian test subjects and the person she replaced. She was already brainswashed and was left untreated. We also don't know how much reaper tech she was still in direct exposure to since her where abouts are uknown throughout the series.

"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

[balance5050]

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

Rana Thanoptis was being controlled while the reapers were still millions of miles away. With more or less intermitent exposure.

And I think the fact that there are loads more reapers in the galaxy than just Soveign now, means the "voices" are substantially stronger

Indeed, my point was that she resisted all throughout ME1 and 2 only to finally give in at 3.

[LaZy i IS]

Agugaboo wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Before Harbinger's beam. 




 After Harbinger's beam:

Weak evidence. Before the beam there are still trees, just not on the path down the hill. Most likely explanation: Devs didn't think that people were gonna pay attention to those tiny details whilst running toward the citadel beam, and wouldn't like a tree in their way.

Actually the tree's were added in after the beam hit and you only see them if you turn around, i.e. theyre behind you after you wake up.

So they were actually added in FOR people looking for tiny details 

There were trees in the background before the beam hit. Those ones after the beam are not there for the reason I stated.
These pics only imply indoctrination if you assume indoctrination "theory" in the first place...
Circular reasoning?

When you are running forward there are no trees in the valley you are running down. after you get hit they're right behind you where they weren't before. I can see how it's evidence encouraging IT. How is it circular?

Because there is no reason for it to support IT unless you believe IT. You could just as easily assume that they're added at that moment because
1) it's inconvenient for players to have a tree in the way whilst running down
2)people aren't going to pay much attention to detail whilst running downhill, being shot by a reaper anyway

Why would I assume Indoc. here? the presence of trees does not imply indoc. unless you believe IT.

Edit: if you don't see trees in the background, try zooming in on the pre-beam image.

Modifié par LaZy i IS, 06 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

This actually helps my case. What the codex describes is reaper indoctrination. It controls both the mind and body. The key is that the mind is also under control. TIM doesn't have control of Anderson or Shepard's mind, just they're bodies.

Therefore, TIM is not indoctrinating them, but using the only physical control implementation of reaper indoctrination.

How? and why haven't the reapers thought of this?

For the reason's I've mentioned. It's not perfect. The subject can break free, speak his mind and make decisions. To make deep cover agents, the subject has to believe what its doing is right, or not be aware that its doing anything at all.

With TIM's method, the subject is fully aware of the control, can speak, and can make decisions. This would make terrible agents.

Anderson wasn't able to break control. Surely it's worth looking into for a more efficient control? Especially since it gets closer to stopping Shepard than everything else they've used (bar the collectors at the start of mass effect 2 )

This little gizmo was something that TIM had been developing for what? a little under a year? Surely the Reapers would have been capable of so much more with the same tech?