1357 réponses à ce sujet

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...


How long did it take for TIM to control Shepard and Anderson? How close has Shepard been to reapers?

The time it took is irrelevant since TIM isn't using indoctrination the way the reapers do.

Shepard was close enough to blow them up. But Shepard was mostly around them with a team, which would have likely gone through the same process, if not faster, since Shepard is the strongest of them all.

On top of that, the time needed to indoctrinate someone is great and it can't be intermittent. The scientists on the Derelict reaper didn't start freaking out hours after they were there. It took quiet some time.

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

But apparently, they're either not trying or not capable of taking Shepard's mind. Atleast hijacking his body would stop him? And for all the husks, who aren't wanted for their minds, you wouldn't have to go through the intensive huskification process. Just use TIM's variant of control?

I think they can control Shepards mind, but not from long range and intermitent exposure. Also, hijacking his body proved difficult as well since he broke free of it to shoot TIM. It's not perfect when you do one without the other.

Husks are brainless because the indoctrination attempt rapidly degrades their minds as a side effect. However, their purpose is to be mindless, aggressive animals. If they took an organic and controlled just its body, it could talk, still make decisions on its own and even break free. It wouldn't make a good sleeper agent.

Imagine if Anderson were indoctrinated this way, he could easily tell Shepard, "I can't control myself, kill me!" T ny moment.

Rana Thanoptis was being controlled while the reapers were still millions of miles away. With more or less intermitent exposure.

And I think the fact that there are loads more reapers in the galaxy than just Soveign now, means the "voices" are substantially stronger

Indeed, my point was that she resisted all throughout ME1 and 2 only to finally give in at 3.

And i believe she also paragon self-interrupt suicided? Such a (relatively) good girl!

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

For the reason's I've mentioned. It's not perfect. The subject can break free, speak his mind and make decisions. To make deep cover agents, the subject has to believe what its doing is right, or not be aware that its doing anything at all.

With TIM's method, the subject is fully aware of the control, can speak, and can make decisions. This would make terrible agents.

Nanites are the only way to physically control someone regardless of their mind. If the reaper could control the body without controlling the mind we would have seen ONE other example in the entire series. But sadly they are husks.

[KingZayd]

Agugaboo wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


And what else is it? He's been studying indoctrination. Whatever he has is based on that research. Are you suggesting he's been able to come up with a technology beyond the reapers? TIM's a remarkable man indeed, but I think you overestimate him.

No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that he researched Indoctrination to figure out how to gain control over people.

He reverse engineered it and made it his own. Just like he tells you in the final scene. A lot of tech in the future is reverse engineered from reaper tech. This provides grounds to possibility of reverse engineering Indoctrnation.

But the reapers like to control people too? Something like that would be really useful against Shepard. Why does TIM's device work better than the Reapers' own tech?

Because of the intended purposes. Reapers don't want to control your body, they want the mind. The mind can over power the body so not having control of the mind makes sleeper agents impossible to work with.

I'd say reaper control is much better than TIM's control.

......Benzia and Paul Grayson would say indoctrination does both... So would Saren. Also, if you know howindoctrination works...You would know that there would be no way for it to effect the body with out the mind.

This actually helps my case. What the codex describes is reaper indoctrination. It controls both the mind and body. The key is that the mind is also under control. TIM doesn't have control of Anderson or Shepard's mind, just they're bodies.

Therefore, TIM is not indoctrinating them, but using the only physical control implementation of reaper indoctrination.

How? and why haven't the reapers thought of this?

Interesting. Where in the game does it say TIM's method of control only involves the body?

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


How long did it take for TIM to control Shepard and Anderson? How close has Shepard been to reapers?

The time it took is irrelevant since TIM isn't using indoctrination the way the reapers do.

Shepard was close enough to blow them up. But Shepard was mostly around them with a team, which would have likely gone through the same process, if not faster, since Shepard is the strongest of them all.

On top of that, the time needed to indoctrinate someone is great and it can't be intermittent. The scientists on the Derelict reaper didn't start freaking out hours after they were there. It took quiet some time.

Rana Thanoptis, it can be intermittent.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...


"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

Yes I know she was there. But that was roughly two years after the events on Virmire. What was she doing after she left? How about the time between then and when the reapers arrived? We don't know.

She probably took her work with her when she escaped Virmire, most likely with reaper tech.

[KingZayd]

LaZy i IS wrote...

Agugaboo wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Before Harbinger's beam. 




 After Harbinger's beam:

Weak evidence. Before the beam there are still trees, just not on the path down the hill. Most likely explanation: Devs didn't think that people were gonna pay attention to those tiny details whilst running toward the citadel beam, and wouldn't like a tree in their way.

Actually the tree's were added in after the beam hit and you only see them if you turn around, i.e. theyre behind you after you wake up.

So they were actually added in FOR people looking for tiny details 

There were trees in the background before the beam hit. Those ones after the beam are not there for the reason I stated.
These pics only imply indoctrination if you assume indoctrination "theory" in the first place...
Circular reasoning?

When you are running forward there are no trees in the valley you are running down. after you get hit they're right behind you where they weren't before. I can see how it's evidence encouraging IT. How is it circular?

Because there is no reason for it to support IT unless you believe IT. You could just as easily assume that they're added at that moment because
1) it's inconvenient for players to have a tree in the way whilst running down
2)people aren't going to pay much attention to detail whilst running downhill, being shot by a reaper anyway

Why would I assume Indoc. here? the presence of trees does not imply indoc. unless you believe IT.

Edit: if you don't see trees in the background, try zooming in on the pre-beam image.

So why put the trees there afterwards? Surely it'd be easier to just leave them out of the valley? Not that I consider this particularly strong evidence of IT.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


How long did it take for TIM to control Shepard and Anderson? How close has Shepard been to reapers?

The time it took is irrelevant since TIM isn't using indoctrination the way the reapers do.

Shepard was close enough to blow them up. But Shepard was mostly around them with a team, which would have likely gone through the same process, if not faster, since Shepard is the strongest of them all.

On top of that, the time needed to indoctrinate someone is great and it can't be intermittent. The scientists on the Derelict reaper didn't start freaking out hours after they were there. It took quiet some time.

Rana Thanoptis, it can be intermittent.

See my comment above this one.

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


How long did it take for TIM to control Shepard and Anderson? How close has Shepard been to reapers?

The time it took is irrelevant since TIM isn't using indoctrination the way the reapers do.

Shepard was close enough to blow them up. But Shepard was mostly around them with a team, which would have likely gone through the same process, if not faster, since Shepard is the strongest of them all.

On top of that, the time needed to indoctrinate someone is great and it can't be intermittent. The scientists on the Derelict reaper didn't start freaking out hours after they were there. It took quiet some time.

Well the time is relevant. Because if TIM can do that instantly, then that's another reason to prefer his variant over the one the reapers use.

Shepard had been hit by one of those Reaper artifacts, that have (as far as we've seen) indoctrinated everyone they've hit (excluding Shepard?). His companions were not.

Why can't it be intermittent? Source?

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

Yes I know she was there. But that was roughly two years after the events on Virmire. What was she doing after she left? How about the time between then and when the reapers arrived? We don't know.

She probably took her work with her when she escaped Virmire, most likely with reaper tech.

Does it matter? She wasn't around reaper tech anymore, she says herself that she was fearing that she was becoming indoctrinated. There were no reapers around to give her additional indoc. It's not until after the arrival but before ME3 that the voices COME BACK and cause her to kill Asari officials and commit suicide.

[Agugaboo]

LaZy i IS wrote...

Agugaboo wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Before Harbinger's beam. 




 After Harbinger's beam:

Weak evidence. Before the beam there are still trees, just not on the path down the hill. Most likely explanation: Devs didn't think that people were gonna pay attention to those tiny details whilst running toward the citadel beam, and wouldn't like a tree in their way.

Actually the tree's were added in after the beam hit and you only see them if you turn around, i.e. theyre behind you after you wake up.

So they were actually added in FOR people looking for tiny details 

There were trees in the background before the beam hit. Those ones after the beam are not there for the reason I stated.
These pics only imply indoctrination if you assume indoctrination "theory" in the first place...
Circular reasoning?

When you are running forward there are no trees in the valley you are running down. after you get hit they're right behind you where they weren't before. I can see how it's evidence encouraging IT. How is it circular?

Because there is no reason for it to support IT unless you believe IT. You could just as easily assume that they're added at that moment because
1) it's inconvenient for players to have a tree in the way whilst running down
2)people aren't going to pay much attention to detail whilst running downhill, being shot by a reaper anyway

Why would I assume Indoc. here? the presence of trees does not imply indoc. unless you believe IT.

I see what you're saying, but for me it's not so clear cut;
1) Then why add them? Why would they go back and add them after the fact? Why use the same foliage from the dream sequence.
2) Yet clearly they did. And what's more we were supposed to "speculate" about the whole ending.
Because as of yet all anyone has is evidence without any clear cut proof and only indirect hints at motive.

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

Yes I know she was there. But that was roughly two years after the events on Virmire. What was she doing after she left? How about the time between then and when the reapers arrived? We don't know.

She probably took her work with her when she escaped Virmire, most likely with reaper tech.

She didn't really get an opportunity to pack her bags when she left Vermire. We were about to nuke that lab.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

This is the one and only time. Considering the entire debate is about whether this scene is actually happening or not, you're going to have to find at least ONE other example to serve as the controlled variable. Otherwise the info is faulty.

Modifié par balance5050, 06 mai 2012 - 09:34 .

[KingZayd]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

And this only makes sense if TIM has been able to improve reaper tech, which is very impressive indeed. There is another answer: That scene isn't real. Shepard's still unconscious in London, where we see him/her after the high EMS destruction ending.

[balance5050]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

And this only makes sense if TIM has been able to improve reaper tech, which is very impressive indeed. There is another answer: That scene isn't real. Shepard's still unconscious in London, where we see him/her after the high EMS destruction ending.

I'm wondering why TIM wants to control organics in the first place. I thought he wanted to control the reapers and their forces.

Modifié par balance5050, 06 mai 2012 - 09:33 .

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

Yes I know she was there. But that was roughly two years after the events on Virmire. What was she doing after she left? How about the time between then and when the reapers arrived? We don't know.

She probably took her work with her when she escaped Virmire, most likely with reaper tech.

Does it matter? She wasn't around reaper tech anymore, she says herself that she was fearing that she was becoming indoctrinated. There were no reapers around to give her additional indoc. It's not until after the arrival but before ME3 that the voices COME BACK and cause her to kill Asari officials and commit suicide.

Yes it matters. We don't know what she's doing or what she was near. We're speculating on her being controlled from long range with little evidence to prove it, but are confirming that long range indoctrination is possible based on her.

Also, at the time she was studying indoctrination, the only thing known to be capable of indoctrination was Soverign itself. But we learn later on in the series that most, if not any, reaper tech can potentially indoctrinate someone.

So it's possible that they Rana was studying reaper artifacts on othr projects and was exposed to them all the time.

Also, if IT is ture then whispers coming back isn't anything special since Shepard only hears whispers in his dreams.

[Agugaboo]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

And this only makes sense if TIM has been able to improve reaper tech, which is very impressive indeed. There is another answer: That scene isn't real. Shepard's still unconscious in London, where we see him/her after the high EMS destruction ending.

This is what I think is happening. Everything after the harbinger beam is either in shepard's mind, or an altered view of reality through the final effects of indoctrination. In neither case do we actually have any factual evidence of what the trials of indoctrination are like but it seems plausible.

[Raiil]

KingZayd wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Theory and hypothesis are used interchangeably in common parlance, but from a scientific standpoint, IT is, in fact, a series of hypotheses. As none of them can be empirically stated as true or false, nor do they all necessarily fit together, they remain hypotheses until they can be proven demonstrably true and linked in some fashion, in which case it becomes a full blown theory. :/

But what we're doing is closer to literary analysis than scientific theorising. In this subject, theory is a valid term.

With the insistence of dragging outside, science related topics, and trying to conclusively prove the merits of IT in a fashion more akin to the scientific method, you've moved out of the realm of literary analysis /critique and opened yourself up to a more methodological approach to figuring out whether IT can stand on its own two feet. Too many assertions have been brought forward as a hypothesis to be judged from a purely literary standpoint. 

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

This is the one and only time. Considering the entire debate is about whether this scene is actually happening or not, you're going to have to find at least ONE other example to serve as the controlled variable. Otherwise the info is faulty.

No my original point was that TIM isn't using reaper indoctrination to control shpeard and anderson. He reverse engineered the process and made it into his own.

[EpyonX3]

KingZayd wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The game itself doesn't. But they're saying it does.

The game shows it. Shepard and Anderson can talk but can't move. They are trying to convince TIM to let them go. They have their minds they just can't move their bodies. This shouldn't need to be said.

And this only makes sense if TIM has been able to improve reaper tech, which is very impressive indeed. There is another answer: That scene isn't real. Shepard's still unconscious in London, where we see him/her after the high EMS destruction ending.

How is it an improvement? Are you ignoring my points to the flaws of TIM's control vs reaper indoctrination?

[LaZy i IS]

Agugaboo wrote...
I see what you're saying, but for me it's not so clear cut;
1) Then why add them? Why would they go back and add them after the fact? Why use the same foliage from the dream sequence.
2) Yet clearly they did. And what's more we were supposed to "speculate" about the whole ending.
Because as of yet all anyone has is evidence without any clear cut proof and only indirect hints at motive.

1) It's the same trees/etc. you can see in the background, even before the beam.

I understand the doubts here, but, this being weak evidence, I'm really starting to doubt Pro-IT arguments.
Heard of an argument technique called fast-talking? You show piece after piece of weak evidence so that it eventually overshadows the stronger evidence against and seems like more. Most Pro-IT'ers employ this technique, weakening their own argument imo. Show me strong, non-cirumstantial evidence please.

P.S- I'd like to note that I'm not particularly against IT, just that it's far less probable than the idea that it's just down to bad writing.

[KingZayd]

Valentia X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Theory and hypothesis are used interchangeably in common parlance, but from a scientific standpoint, IT is, in fact, a series of hypotheses. As none of them can be empirically stated as true or false, nor do they all necessarily fit together, they remain hypotheses until they can be proven demonstrably true and linked in some fashion, in which case it becomes a full blown theory. :/

But what we're doing is closer to literary analysis than scientific theorising. In this subject, theory is a valid term.

With the insistence of dragging outside, science related topics, and trying to conclusively prove the merits of IT in a fashion more akin to the scientific method, you've moved out of the realm of literary analysis /critique and opened yourself up to a more methodological approach to figuring out whether IT can stand on its own two feet. Too many assertions have been brought forward as a hypothesis to be judged from a purely literary standpoint. 

Wait, so trying to use logic in literary analysis means we have to use scientific terminology and definitions?

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

Yes I know she was there. But that was roughly two years after the events on Virmire. What was she doing after she left? How about the time between then and when the reapers arrived? We don't know.

She probably took her work with her when she escaped Virmire, most likely with reaper tech.

Does it matter? She wasn't around reaper tech anymore, she says herself that she was fearing that she was becoming indoctrinated. There were no reapers around to give her additional indoc. It's not until after the arrival but before ME3 that the voices COME BACK and cause her to kill Asari officials and commit suicide.

Yes it matters. We don't know what she's doing or what she was near. We're speculating on her being controlled from long range with little evidence to prove it, but are confirming that long range indoctrination is possible based on her.

Also, at the time she was studying indoctrination, the only thing known to be capable of indoctrination was Soverign itself. But we learn later on in the series that most, if not any, reaper tech can potentially indoctrinate someone.

So it's possible that they Rana was studying reaper artifacts on othr projects and was exposed to them all the time.

Also, if IT is ture then whispers coming back isn't anything special since Shepard only hears whispers in his dreams.

If you talk to her in ME2 she tells you what she was doing, trying to be a good person by helping Okeer. She was helping Okeer.

ME wiki:

"If Rana survived Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."


This is evidence that long range control is possible, considering it happened on Thessia before the Reapers made it to Earth. I doubt they have Reaper tech just lying around Thessia.

[Agugaboo]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


"where abouts are uknown throughout the series."

You didn't meet her in ME2? She was helping Okeer the Krogan.

You hear in an ANN report that She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices" in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators. 

Yes I know she was there. But that was roughly two years after the events on Virmire. What was she doing after she left? How about the time between then and when the reapers arrived? We don't know.

She probably took her work with her when she escaped Virmire, most likely with reaper tech.

Does it matter? She wasn't around reaper tech anymore, she says herself that she was fearing that she was becoming indoctrinated. There were no reapers around to give her additional indoc. It's not until after the arrival but before ME3 that the voices COME BACK and cause her to kill Asari officials and commit suicide.

Yes it matters. We don't know what she's doing or what she was near. We're speculating on her being controlled from long range with little evidence to prove it, but are confirming that long range indoctrination is possible based on her.

Also, at the time she was studying indoctrination, the only thing known to be capable of indoctrination was Soverign itself. But we learn later on in the series that most, if not any, reaper tech can potentially indoctrinate someone.

So it's possible that they Rana was studying reaper artifacts on othr projects and was exposed to them all the time.

Also, if IT is ture then whispers coming back isn't anything special since Shepard only hears whispers in his dreams.

Heh. I had Zaeed with me when I let her go a third time and he said "That's going to bite you in the *** one day."