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The contridiction of Anti-IT....


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#76
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

davishepard wrote...

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

Why should a care for an irony about fanfiction?

Maybe because there's a basis for the fan fiction?
Image IPB

Seriously, I recommend the Final Hours app, got some great info.

You know, people ignores that this endgame sequence was dropped (and insist to say that only the gameplay part was dropped, ignoring the meaning of "sequence" totally), so it's better don't even bring this up.

Because it's apparently too hard to read and understand that they dropped the said sequence, and put in the game a sequence with TIM where Shepard lose control of Shepard's movements and fell under TIM control. And that this control is limited only to it's body movements in both the dropped engame sequence and the sequence shown in the game.


Bioware asked for 6 extra months and EA gave them 3, theres no reason to think that just because it was dropped doesn't mean it can't be reimplimented.


True, but if it was dropped then it is likely that the decision wasn't taken lightly and was definitve . The amount of time, 6 months instead of 3, is frankly rather irrelevant


Wut? LOL at you thinking that Bioware was rushed is irrelevant to a dropped game mechanic.


Because to a large extent it is. They said they dropped it, get over it


LOL, uhm they are releasing an "Extended Cut" so they can do any number of things including implementing game mechanics that they have been working on since before game launch. Only Sith deal in absolutes my friend.^_^ 

#77
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...

Doesn't answer my point about clarification.


They said that because it's a vague term that can mean anything. I like to think that it means revealing an awesome twist that Bioware has prided themselves in. They do consider themselves to be story tellers after all.^_^

#78
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

davishepard wrote...

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

Why should a care for an irony about fanfiction?

Maybe because there's a basis for the fan fiction?
Image IPB

Seriously, I recommend the Final Hours app, got some great info.

You know, people ignores that this endgame sequence was dropped (and insist to say that only the gameplay part was dropped, ignoring the meaning of "sequence" totally), so it's better don't even bring this up.

Because it's apparently too hard to read and understand that they dropped the said sequence, and put in the game a sequence with TIM where Shepard lose control of Shepard's movements and fell under TIM control. And that this control is limited only to it's body movements in both the dropped engame sequence and the sequence shown in the game.


Bioware asked for 6 extra months and EA gave them 3, theres no reason to think that just because it was dropped doesn't mean it can't be reimplimented.


True, but if it was dropped then it is likely that the decision wasn't taken lightly and was definitve . The amount of time, 6 months instead of 3, is frankly rather irrelevant


Wut? LOL at you thinking that Bioware was rushed is irrelevant to a dropped game mechanic.


Because to a large extent it is. They said they dropped it, get over it


And them putting it back in again is unlikely. The things IT theorists do...

LOL, uhm they are releasing an "Extended Cut" so they can do any number of things including implementing game mechanics that they have been working on since before game launch. Only Sith deal in absolutes my friend.^_^ 



#79
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Doesn't answer my point about clarification.


They said that because it's a vague term that can mean anything. I like to think that it means revealing an awesome twist that Bioware has prided themselves in. They do consider themselves to be story tellers after all.^_^


And clarification, as I have said, does not imply a massive battle and long missions, does it?

#80
CavScout

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So, what were the contradictions?

#81
balance5050

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--smooth editing there....

Clarification can mean anything. IT just happens to not change the ending but only clarify them. No "massive battle and long missions" needed what so ever.

(Although that would be a pleasant surprise that would redeem bioware for most the fans.)^_^

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 04:44 .


#82
hoodaticus

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Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?

#83
ev76

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Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

#84
balance5050

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hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?


The REALLY weird thing about that is TIM was studying how to control reaper forces, not organics.

#85
balance5050

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ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?


I find it strange how many people want to turn everyone into a robot against there will. (Synthesis)

I also find it strange how many want to BE SPACE BEIBER. (Control)

#86
AnsinJung

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ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?


None of that is far fetched, but the writers abandoned the lore when they ended this game.  I personally hope for IT, although I'm not a believer, strictly speaking.  I just think it's the best way out of this mess short of redoing half the entire game.  It's always been an implicit question, imo.  Will Shepard face indoctrination/how will that battle go?  Even though it's implied that no one's ever defeated indoctrination, it's also said that Shepard is unique, many times.  That's the sort of feel good crap I'd take over a mind numbingly terrible ending.

Modifié par AnsinJung, 05 mai 2012 - 04:51 .


#87
CavScout

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hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?


Indoctrination is akin to mind control... what happened to Shep and Anderson wasn't that.

#88
KingZayd

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MidnightRaith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The ending we have right now made a bigger backlash that holding and ending....
2. The fact they are making EC.

........
Your not really agients IT...Your ageinst BW doing addon dlc endings...A thing other companies have done before with little back lash. I understand you point but it's clearthe back lash already happened. How can it get worse then a horde of your fans theating to not buy your product over the ending?


You missed the part where I said that IT is completely different than a retcon or "clarification." EC falls under "clarification."

But first:

1. Yes, we have a backlash, however in its present state, ME3 does not spell the end for Bioware and it is not setting the precedent of End Game DLC. The only people threatening to not by future Bioware products are Mass Effect fans. However, Mass effect fans do not make up the entirety of the Dragon Age fans, or the TOR fans, or the Warhammer fans or fans for furture IPs. Mass Effect fans are angry right now and only Mass Effect fans. Yes, these fanbases intertwine. I myself am a fan of DA, ME and TOR. However that does not mean I'm willing to abandon TOR or DA just because ME3 sucked. However, if Bioware does IT, then my trust in them will effectively be shattered. I'd drop them in a second and I imagine that many people feel the same way.

2. You apparently don't understand what EC is designed to do. I do not think that BW is planning to do IT at all, considering that they themselves have stated that EC is going to provide "clarification" and "closure." IT would introduce entirely new information to the game. Your theory may be based on data present in the game itself, but you've put it together in a way that does not build upon what Bioware gave us. The "clarification" part is going to merely add on to what we've already been shown. I.E. Joker's abandonment. Things like that. Not, Shepard wakes up all of a sudden in London and somehow finishes the fight in someway. Perhaps with the Crucible or maybe through actual warfare. Another problem I have with IT. You guys don't have an actual ending. Just a protest of the one given, which is why it is a coping mechanism instead of a viable ending.


1. I imagine the opposite is also true. That without IT. there are bioware consumers who would lose faith in Bioware and refuse to buy future products. I certainly wouldn't preorder another bioware game.

2. We don't have the exact details of the EC, because bioware hasn't given them to us, and they have refused to do so. They've deliberately not told us what exactly is in the EC. Something that makes it clear that the indoctrination was taking place is clarification. Showing us/or allowing us how the reaper threat actually ends, and what happens next is closure. IT doesn't conflict with clarification and closure.

MidnightRaith wrote... 
I am not against the EC as it stands. I'm against games not giving us an ending as advertised. ME3 ends. It has credits and we can speculate what happened, even if those speculations are awful and depressing. However, IT is a continuation of ME3. Not an ending. Apparently, you didn't read the paragraph I gave which already outlined how the backlash would get worse. What you see here is just ME fans. IT would be the boulder thrown into the BW Fanbase Lake that would ripple across all the IPs. It would get worse. Considering you didn't really address my points, I have to come to the conclusion that you're in denial about the whole thing. IT provides a way out, just like fanfiction for many other fans. The difference here is that you are actually suggesting that Bioware takes your idea and puts it in game. The idea that suggests that essentially the ending was a bad dream where you wake up to continue the fight. Do you not see how.... silly that sounds? What many IT supporters do not consider is how they would react if this is what Bioware gave us in the first place. How many of you would support it if so?

As I said, a coping mechanism that has exploded to the level of obsession. Following this, I'm not going to try to further dissuade you from believing in IT. It's supporters are too into it.....


ME1 had ending credits, as did ME2. The story still carried on in playable DLC and sequels. Why can't ME3 do the same? YOU believe the backlash would be worse, and i disagree. All I want is a story that's good and makes sense. With IT being confirmed, I would probably have that. Yes, some will hate it, but some will love it. What basis do you have for saying that one of those categories is certainly going to be greater than the other?

I also, at first suspected it was just wishful thinking, but after looking at the content in ME3 and the games before it, and the comics, i'm convinced that Bioware were planning indoctrination. Yes, I have different opinions on some aspects (I think the Earthchild was real, and that that image was used later on to explolit Shepard's emotional vulnerabilities), but to me it seems as if they've been hinting quite strongly at Shepard becoming indoctrinated.

As for my reaction, had IT and it's predicted DLC been contained within the version of ME3 i downloaded from Origin? As i said, i care about the story primarily. I would have loved it provided what came after the indoctrination reveal made sense.

#89
KingZayd

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Doesn't answer my point about clarification.


They said that because it's a vague term that can mean anything. I like to think that it means revealing an awesome twist that Bioware has prided themselves in. They do consider themselves to be story tellers after all.^_^


And clarification, as I have said, does not imply a massive battle and long missions, does it?


it doesn't say there won't be either. Saying there would be a massive battle and long missions though, if you were planning on revealing indoctrination as a twist would be rather spoilery wouldn't it?

#90
balance5050

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CavScout wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?


Indoctrination is akin to mind control... what happened to Shep and Anderson wasn't that.


It was if the entire thing was a hallucination partially created from his memories.... As signified by the references to other ships (collector base and shadow broker ship, also the peculiar 1M1 is an asset from the end of ME1 of all places).

When you go up the conduit, it's the same sound effect as entering the Geth concensus, in there, Legion explains why things are represented through memory.

#91
CavScout

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balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Indoctrination is akin to mind control... what happened to Shep and Anderson wasn't that.


It was if the entire thing was a hallucination partially created from his memories.... As signified by the references to other ships (collector base and shadow broker ship, also the peculiar 1M1 is an asset from the end of ME1 of all places).

When you go up the conduit, it's the same sound effect as entering the Geth concensus, in there, Legion explains why things are represented through memory.


It is practically worthless to debate IT with folks like you. Anything that contradicts IT is dismissed as being part of IT. Nothing is quite like the unfalsifiable theory....

#92
balance5050

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CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Indoctrination is akin to mind control... what happened to Shep and Anderson wasn't that.


It was if the entire thing was a hallucination partially created from his memories.... As signified by the references to other ships (collector base and shadow broker ship, also the peculiar 1M1 is an asset from the end of ME1 of all places).

When you go up the conduit, it's the same sound effect as entering the Geth concensus, in there, Legion explains why things are represented through memory.


It is practically worthless to debate IT with folks like you. Anything that contradicts IT is dismissed as being part of IT. Nothing is quite like the unfalsifiable theory....


:DLOL! Sorry? ^_^

Edit, I just like to be on the side that makes the most sense.

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 05:04 .


#93
CavScout

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balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Indoctrination is akin to mind control... what happened to Shep and Anderson wasn't that.


It was if the entire thing was a hallucination partially created from his memories.... As signified by the references to other ships (collector base and shadow broker ship, also the peculiar 1M1 is an asset from the end of ME1 of all places).

When you go up the conduit, it's the same sound effect as entering the Geth concensus, in there, Legion explains why things are represented through memory.


It is practically worthless to debate IT with folks like you. Anything that contradicts IT is dismissed as being part of IT. Nothing is quite like the unfalsifiable theory....


:DLOL! Sorry? ^_^

Edit, I just like to be on the side that makes the most sense.


Then why are you supporting IT?

#94
OH-UP-THIS!

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davishepard wrote...

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

Why should a care for an irony about fanfiction?

Maybe because there's a basis for the fan fiction?
Image IPB

Seriously, I recommend the Final Hours app, got some great info.

You know, people ignores that this endgame sequence was dropped (and insist to say that only the gameplay part was dropped, ignoring the meaning of "sequence" totally), so it's better don't even bring this up.

Because it's apparently too hard to read and understand that they dropped the said sequence, and put in the game a sequence with TIM where Shepard lose control of Shepard's movements and fell under TIM control. And that this control is limited only to it's body movements in both the dropped engame sequence and the sequence shown in the game.



Cut me a little slack here, but according to that snippet of info, "we" WERE supposed to lose control?

I don't know about the rest of you, but it WAS NOT my intention to shoot Anderson!!!!!!!! Image IPB

To compound this tidbit, the CODEX states, "An indoctrinated subject(TIM) can be used as as ANTENNAE, to strengthen the signal, to redirect its signal at someone in particular(Shep)."(paraphrasing) Image IPB

That pretty much looks like we were controlled, and precious few can see it, for what it is. Image IPB

#95
KingZayd

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Tom Lehrer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. But watching the nature of something  is the one of way to predict  how it develops.This one of the oldest ways to predict develpment This is the case of study valcanos, earth quakes, stars and storms.  You can't ignore it's nature if signs point  to it. Shep has been near reaper tech on and off for 3 years and there simptoms that link to it.
http://social.biowar...75/blog/212630/ 

And it's been stated, form ME1, it is hard to detect early....Really, you can't say no solid evidence means no proof being that it never shows it and it to dangerous to ignore.

2.They you have not been paying attention then.....That's all of ME1, ME2 and Arrival. bw spent 2 game explaining indoctrination.....With codex there to reexplain it. It's not the fault of BW that you forgot.

 

ME1 gives us just about everything we know about indoctrination and we get no new info out of ME2. We learn there is NO fighting it. Victims can over come the control for very short momenets but in the end the Reaper control is absolute and the only way to free yourself is to give yourself a new face hole.

You say Arrival was a key point for Shepards indoctrination but what if I never played Arrival? Hackett sends in a spec ops team if Shepard does not do it so he is never in the same system as Project Rho. 


Arrival is the only real reason Shepard is grounded and has the Normandy taken away from him at the start of ME3, even if your Shepard didn't do that mission, so the events of Arrival are not insignificant. The truth is, indoctrination doesn't have to start in Arrival really (after all Saren, Rana and Shiala weren't indoctrinated the same way as Ben and Desolas), but the events there are intended to be a massive hint to those who have, especially those who have read the comics.

as for stuff in mass effect 2 concerning indoctrination: 
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s
also the fact that the collectors are the remnants of indoctrinated protheans who served the reapers. (oh look, maybe Saren was partially right about being spared if we were useful)

The comics show that TIM was hit by the same blast that indoctrinated Ben, and the same type that indoctrinated Desolas. The artifact changed him permanently, and that's the start of the indoctrination. He's been fighting it all this time.

In mass effect 3, Shiala can hear the reaper voices, she is still indoctrinated. But her hive mind gives the the strength to resist. Saren's suicide was a sign (however temporary) of resistance.  If Shepard was not quite as far along the path of indoctrination as Saren (as I, and many others believe) then he would be more capable of resisting. Eventually he would still lose, but eventually might be after the reapers are dead, in which case there are no reaper voices to hear.

#96
KingZayd

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CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Indoctrination is akin to mind control... what happened to Shep and Anderson wasn't that.


It was if the entire thing was a hallucination partially created from his memories.... As signified by the references to other ships (collector base and shadow broker ship, also the peculiar 1M1 is an asset from the end of ME1 of all places).

When you go up the conduit, it's the same sound effect as entering the Geth concensus, in there, Legion explains why things are represented through memory.


It is practically worthless to debate IT with folks like you. Anything that contradicts IT is dismissed as being part of IT. Nothing is quite like the unfalsifiable theory....


:DLOL! Sorry? ^_^

Edit, I just like to be on the side that makes the most sense.


Then why are you supporting IT?



#97
KingZayd

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balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?


The REALLY weird thing about that is TIM was studying how to control reaper forces, not organics.


reaper forces are organics, with synthetic parts. He was studying indoctrination.

Modifié par KingZayd, 05 mai 2012 - 05:23 .


#98
OH-UP-THIS!

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Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.



Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!Image IPB

#99
Raiil

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ohupthis wrote...

Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.



Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!Image IPB


Doesn't the Destroy ending with high EMS (where Shepard 'breaks free' from indoc) work on the idea that he knows he's been indoctrinated, and struggles to break free?

#100
balance5050

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KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?


The REALLY weird thing about that is TIM was studying how to control reaper forces, not organics.


reaper forces are organics, with synthetic parts. He was studying indoctrination.


Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.