1357 réponses à ce sujet

[WillSheperd_1982]

I'm new here, but I've been noticing that IT supporters proclaiming IT to be 100% canon are often prone to committing a large number of logical fallacies, especially ones that pertain to assigning burden of proof.

Now I'm not talking about people who just "believe" that the IT theory is true based on their own personal opinions, but those who rabidly assert that the IT is without a doubt what Bioware intended all along. And for that to be the case, the evidence itself would have to be irrefutable.

The idea that something must necessarily be true because there's no way to conclusively prove that it's false (especially when it can be explained away as "indoctrination") is not really a sound position to adopt.

Coupled with the tendency to conclude that correlation most definitely equals causation, these people seem to mistake gut feelings and rorscach-style assessments ("I see a rabbit! It must be a rabbit!") as "incontrovertible evidence." That's not how a logical argument, works, people.

[balance5050]

 
http://www.youtube.c...g5xltLkk#t=291s



"I can tell you that the end of the story will be on the disc... But within that context, given the terms there's a bit of a different.. the way that we're structuring the story is pretty different.. So it will make a good sense why the dlc plugs in to where it does." - Comic-con 2011

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[Raiil]

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

Er, no, the statement says there was a planned segment for indoctrination that was scrapped. It's not followed by 'so we decided to just toss it in here without dialogue'. Not saying that's not the case, but it's not even circumstantial evidence at this point, and it no way belies my point- BioWare has, both in the past and in this current game, left files on the disc that were ultimately scrapped or used for other purposes, and there is nothing concrete proving that this is not the case.

[Darth_Trethon]

This is going nowhere....there are a few who strongly feel that the IT is going to kill their dog and beat their family or something and nothing will change that. No amount of reason or lore or strong evidence.....IF BioWare did implement the IT they'd turn into the hateful 3% and just bash it anyway. These are the inevitable few that wouldn't like the ending no matter what.

The implementation does seem pretty clear that Mr. Walters and Mr. Hudson wanted this as part of their SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE ploy so yes I am convinced they intended it. But then again they are hardly in a position to ever ruin a game again.....I'm fairly sure we'll never hear their names associated with another game so it's hard to say what direction EA and BioWare chose to take with the ending though I suspect the IT will be implemented in SOME capacity. Probably indoctrination attempt is involved but very drastically differently than we expect with a lot more reality and less dream to it.

[KevShep]

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

If you read it word for word, you'll notice that indoctrination isn't even mentioned.

 Yes it was.

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

So you can't provide any evidence that proves I.T. false then? Didn't think so......

One does not prove a negative. The burden of proof is on your shoulders preacher man.

Care to refute why they're are reflections of trees on the citadel?

You didn't provide a why. There is nothing to refute.

Perhaps you can join this thread and tell these folks how reflections prove Indoctrination Theory. Clearly IT flows into the Star Wars universe since Imperial reflections exists on the Republic station.

[DTKT]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

If you read it word for word, you'll notice that indoctrination isn't even mentioned.

You can't reason with these people. Don't  try.

I'm sure they say the same thing about us! 

[zambot]

WillSheperd_1982 wrote...

I'm new here, but I've been noticing that IT supporters proclaiming IT to be 100% canon are often prone to committing a large number of logical fallacies, especially ones that pertain to assigning burden of proof.

Now I'm not talking about people who just "believe" that the IT theory is true based on their own personal opinions, but those who rabidly assert that the IT is without a doubt what Bioware intended all along. And for that to be the case, the evidence itself would have to be irrefutable.

The idea that something must necessarily be true because there's no way to conclusively prove that it's false (especially when it can be explained away as "indoctrination") is not really a sound position to adopt.

Coupled with the tendency to conclude that correlation most definitely equals causation, these people seem to mistake gut feelings and rorscach-style assessments ("I see a rabbit! It must be a rabbit!") as "incontrovertible evidence." That's not how a logical argument, works, people.

Yeah, I used to like IT a lot as a nifty interpretation of what could have been with ME3.  Lately, it's felt more like a religious war.  

[KevShep]

Valentia X wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

Er, no, the statement says there was a planned segment for indoctrination that was scrapped. It's not followed by 'so we decided to just toss it in here without dialogue'. Not saying that's not the case, but it's not even circumstantial evidence at this point, and it no way belies my point- BioWare has, both in the past and in this current game, left files on the disc that were ultimately scrapped or used for other purposes, and there is nothing concrete proving that this is not the case.

 No the part of indoctrintation that they dropped was having shepards control taken away from you. read it again!

[balance5050]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

This is going nowhere....there are a few who strongly feel that the IT is going to kill their dog and beat their family or something and nothing will change that. No amount of reason or lore or strong evidence.....IF BioWare did implement the IT they'd turn into the hateful 3% and just bash it anyway. These are the inevitable few that wouldn't like the ending no matter what.

The implementation does seem pretty clear that Mr. Walters and Mr. Hudson wanted this as part of their SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE ploy so yes I am convinced they intended it. But then again they are hardly in a position to ever ruin a game again.....I'm fairly sure we'll never hear their names associated with another game so it's hard to say what direction EA and BioWare chose to take with the ending though I suspect the IT will be implemented in SOME capacity. Probably indoctrination attempt is involved but very drastically differently than we expect with a lot more reality and less dream to it.

That's what I find awesome, all of this debate is EXACTLY what they wanted.

[KevShep]

CavScout wrote...

Here is another one for you buddy...   

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DTKT wrote...
This is going in circles.

To you, this represents firm proof that the IT is true.

To me, it means that Bioware used the 3 voices because it was sounding nice. Because it was cute to use M/F Shepard voice for the very last conversation in the game.

I was only providing what he was asking for, please stop acting like you know what's happening here.

There is irony in you saying that.

Oh yeah youre right, thought you wanted evidence that Shepards voice was embedded with the kids.

The irony is rather thick tonight. I never asked for evidence that Shep's voice was mixed in. I did ask for evidence that it was mixed in for Indocrination. Please stop acting like you know what's happening here.

[DTKT]

balance5050 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

This is going nowhere....there are a few who strongly feel that the IT is going to kill their dog and beat their family or something and nothing will change that. No amount of reason or lore or strong evidence.....IF BioWare did implement the IT they'd turn into the hateful 3% and just bash it anyway. These are the inevitable few that wouldn't like the ending no matter what.

The implementation does seem pretty clear that Mr. Walters and Mr. Hudson wanted this as part of their SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE ploy so yes I am convinced they intended it. But then again they are hardly in a position to ever ruin a game again.....I'm fairly sure we'll never hear their names associated with another game so it's hard to say what direction EA and BioWare chose to take with the ending though I suspect the IT will be implemented in SOME capacity. Probably indoctrination attempt is involved but very drastically differently than we expect with a lot more reality and less dream to it.

That's what I find awesome, all of this debate is EXACTLY what they wanted.

They wanted the past two months of bad PR? Really? They wanted a large portion of the fanbase to be disapointed in the endings? So much so that they raised 100$k for charity, send cupcakes and created a meme out of it?

Give me a break.

Modifié par DTKT, 07 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

So you can't provide any evidence that proves I.T. false then? Didn't think so......

One does not prove a negative. The burden of proof is on your shoulders preacher man.

Care to refute why they're are reflections of trees on the citadel?

You didn't provide a why. There is nothing to refute.

Perhaps you can join this thread and tell these folks how reflections prove Indoctrination Theory. Clearly IT flows into the Star Wars universe since Imperial reflections exists on the Republic station.

My why is that the simulation is imperfect, which is also what the backwards "1M1" represents, that the reapers simulation is imperfect.

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 03:51 .

[CavScout]

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

here you go buddy..

A video of supposition is not evidence. Especially one that takes the liberty of modifying the video and sound to manufacture support.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DTKT wrote...
This is going in circles.

To you, this represents firm proof that the IT is true.

To me, it means that Bioware used the 3 voices because it was sounding nice. Because it was cute to use M/F Shepard voice for the very last conversation in the game.

I was only providing what he was asking for, please stop acting like you know what's happening here.

There is irony in you saying that.

Oh yeah youre right, thought you wanted evidence that Shepards voice was embedded with the kids.

The irony is rather thick tonight. I never asked for evidence that Shep's voice was mixed in. I did ask for evidence that it was mixed in for Indocrination. Please stop acting like you know what's happening here.

I know that now. I said I thought, but I was mistaken. K?

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[CavScout]

WillSheperd_1982 wrote...

I'm new here, but I've been noticing that IT supporters proclaiming IT to be 100% canon are often prone to committing a large number of logical fallacies, especially ones that pertain to assigning burden of proof.

Now I'm not talking about people who just "believe" that the IT theory is true based on their own personal opinions, but those who rabidly assert that the IT is without a doubt what Bioware intended all along. And for that to be the case, the evidence itself would have to be irrefutable.

The idea that something must necessarily be true because there's no way to conclusively prove that it's false (especially when it can be explained away as "indoctrination") is not really a sound position to adopt.

Coupled with the tendency to conclude that correlation most definitely equals causation, these people seem to mistake gut feelings and rorscach-style assessments ("I see a rabbit! It must be a rabbit!") as "incontrovertible evidence." That's not how a logical argument, works, people.

This.

[KevShep]

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

If you read it word for word, you'll notice that indoctrination isn't even mentioned.

 Yes it was.

[balance5050]

DTKT wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

This is going nowhere....there are a few who strongly feel that the IT is going to kill their dog and beat their family or something and nothing will change that. No amount of reason or lore or strong evidence.....IF BioWare did implement the IT they'd turn into the hateful 3% and just bash it anyway. These are the inevitable few that wouldn't like the ending no matter what.

The implementation does seem pretty clear that Mr. Walters and Mr. Hudson wanted this as part of their SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE ploy so yes I am convinced they intended it. But then again they are hardly in a position to ever ruin a game again.....I'm fairly sure we'll never hear their names associated with another game so it's hard to say what direction EA and BioWare chose to take with the ending though I suspect the IT will be implemented in SOME capacity. Probably indoctrination attempt is involved but very drastically differently than we expect with a lot more reality and less dream to it.

That's what I find awesome, all of this debate is EXACTLY what they wanted.

They wanted the past two months of bad PR? Really? They wanted a large portion of the fanbase to be disapointed in the endings? So much so that they raised 100$k for charity, send cupcakes and created a meme out of it?

Give me a break.

All in the name of Shepard/their creation.

The news that they fixed the ending will be huge and this will be another memorable chapter in gaming history.

[KevShep]

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

here you go buddy..

A video of supposition is not evidence. Especially one that takes the liberty of modifying the video and sound to manufacture support.

Yes it is. You dont know that difference between evidence and proof.

[Raiil]

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

Er, no, the statement says there was a planned segment for indoctrination that was scrapped. It's not followed by 'so we decided to just toss it in here without dialogue'. Not saying that's not the case, but it's not even circumstantial evidence at this point, and it no way belies my point- BioWare has, both in the past and in this current game, left files on the disc that were ultimately scrapped or used for other purposes, and there is nothing concrete proving that this is not the case.

 No the part of indoctrintation that they dropped was having shepards control taken away from you. read it again!

I think you're missing my point, and I acknowledged that with the bolded. My point is that BioWare has, in fact, left files that eventually scrapped on the disc, and has also left other files unaltered that once had much to do with the story, but eventually got cut. There is no concrete evidence that this is not the case.

[CavScout]

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

 BW had to scrap a planned idea for creating a situation where Shepard was indoctrinated, would it not make sense for some parts of that to remain in the game?

Wrong...The part that was srcaped was the control of shepard TAKEN away from you. You need to read it word for word because you can easly get it wrong. 

His statment proves that the I.T. was in the making. They just needed to find another way to pull it off.

If you read it word for word, you'll notice that indoctrination isn't even mentioned.

 Yes it was.

It is not. I have the app. "Indoctrination" does not appear in that paragraph at all.

"In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen’s voice-over session for the Illusive Man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending. And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard’s movements and fall under full Reaper control. (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)-Keighley, Geoff (2012-03-15). The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3 (Kindle Locations 556-560).Kindle Edition."

[liggy002]

Guys, I hate to break it to you but I don't think that either side is going to convince the other here. Let the EC settle the debate once and for all.

[Darth_Trethon]

balance5050 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

This is going nowhere....there are a few who strongly feel that the IT is going to kill their dog and beat their family or something and nothing will change that. No amount of reason or lore or strong evidence.....IF BioWare did implement the IT they'd turn into the hateful 3% and just bash it anyway. These are the inevitable few that wouldn't like the ending no matter what.

The implementation does seem pretty clear that Mr. Walters and Mr. Hudson wanted this as part of their SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE ploy so yes I am convinced they intended it. But then again they are hardly in a position to ever ruin a game again.....I'm fairly sure we'll never hear their names associated with another game so it's hard to say what direction EA and BioWare chose to take with the ending though I suspect the IT will be implemented in SOME capacity. Probably indoctrination attempt is involved but very drastically differently than we expect with a lot more reality and less dream to it.

That's what I find awesome, all of this debate is EXACTLY what they wanted.

Well....I wouldn't say exactly....i'm pretty sure they didn't expect this to become an EA corporate problem and for the whole DLC plan to be turned on its head....they really DID think people would mostly accept the endings as released. It baffles me really, it seems allmost idiotic but it really seems they did. They thought they could make something comparable to the Matrix or something and completely ignorred that this did not fit their story at all, Mass Effect was not designed in such a way as to really allow any compromise with the reapers so trying to crowbar the Deus Ex ripoff they completely ruined it and they somehow managed to miss this tiny detail.