1357 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Valentia X wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.

Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!

Doesn't the Destroy ending with high EMS (where Shepard 'breaks free' from indoc) work on the idea that he knows he's been indoctrinated, and struggles to break free?

no, just that he rejects the Starchild and isn't diverted from his true path: destroying the reapers. He wakes up anyway (just not shown on screen), just in the red ending, he hasn't been compromised.

[SubAstris]

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Doesn't answer my point about clarification.

They said that because it's a vague term that can mean anything. I like to think that it means revealing an awesome twist that Bioware has prided themselves in. They do consider themselves to be story tellers after all.

And clarification, as I have said, does not imply a massive battle and long missions, does it?

it doesn't say there won't be either. Saying there would be a massive battle and long missions though, if you were planning on revealing indoctrination as a twist would be rather spoilery wouldn't it?

We can only go with what has been said so far. They have said "clarification", nothing about a long and epic battle with the Reapers to end their threat which most IT theorists think will happen

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening

Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 05:29 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Doesn't answer my point about clarification.

They said that because it's a vague term that can mean anything. I like to think that it means revealing an awesome twist that Bioware has prided themselves in. They do consider themselves to be story tellers after all.

And clarification, as I have said, does not imply a massive battle and long missions, does it?

it doesn't say there won't be either. Saying there would be a massive battle and long missions though, if you were planning on revealing indoctrination as a twist would be rather spoilery wouldn't it?

We can only go with what has been said so far. They have said "clarification", nothing about a long and epic battle with the Reapers to end their threat which most IT theorists think will happen

Most IT people play it safe and only think IT will be explained through cut scenes.

[Raiil]

KingZayd wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.

Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!

Doesn't the Destroy ending with high EMS (where Shepard 'breaks free' from indoc) work on the idea that he knows he's been indoctrinated, and struggles to break free?

no, just that he rejects the Starchild and isn't diverted from his true path: destroying the reapers. He wakes up anyway (just not shown on screen), just in the red ending, he hasn't been compromised.

Wouldn't rejecting God Child involve breaking Indoc?

[OH-UP-THIS!]

humes spork wrote...

The irony is how people react to IT itself.

It has its flaws, but on the other hand it's an alternate interpretation that's, given other interpretations pushed forth and with the veracity of several other claims that have been made 'round these parts in the last two months, outstandingly solid by comparison. A given individual either believes it or not, and by believing in it or not they're harming no one else and regardless, others have the right and ability to just ignore it for the lack of harm it does.

So naturally the response is KILL IT WITH FIRE! In the end, it just goes to show how hellbent certain people are on hating the ending and BW, and damn the consequences and collateral.

Thank you, it's about time some reason showed up in here!!

I'd 'rep' ya, but sadly that's not possible, in here.

[balance5050]

Valentia X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.

Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!

Doesn't the Destroy ending with high EMS (where Shepard 'breaks free' from indoc) work on the idea that he knows he's been indoctrinated, and struggles to break free?

no, just that he rejects the Starchild and isn't diverted from his true path: destroying the reapers. He wakes up anyway (just not shown on screen), just in the red ending, he hasn't been compromised.

Wouldn't rejecting God Child involve breaking Indoc?

Minor nitpick: resisting, not breaking.

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?

The REALLY weird thing about that is TIM was studying how to control reaper forces, not organics.

reaper forces are organics, with synthetic parts. He was studying indoctrination.

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.

The fact that TIM uses indoctrination tech in that sequence (that's the only thing it could be), means that even if you believe that encounter is real, then Shepard has been indoctrinated by the time he meets the Starchild.

I agree, that that tech shouldn't manipulate Shepard without affecting his thoughts. This is why i believe Shepard's still unconscious infront of the portal thing in London, having been knocked unconscious by a near hit from a reaper laser (which i'm pretty sure the codex says isn't really a laser, but that's not really so important)

[KingZayd]

Valentia X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.

Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!

Doesn't the Destroy ending with high EMS (where Shepard 'breaks free' from indoc) work on the idea that he knows he's been indoctrinated, and struggles to break free?

no, just that he rejects the Starchild and isn't diverted from his true path: destroying the reapers. He wakes up anyway (just not shown on screen), just in the red ending, he hasn't been compromised.

Wouldn't rejecting God Child involve breaking Indoc?

no, it involves not giving in to indoc.. YET. it's resisting indoctrination, as many have before him. of course, this cannot last forever, as those before him have shown..

[OH-UP-THIS!]

EsterCloat wrote...

humes spork wrote...

The irony is how people react to IT itself.

It has its flaws, but on the other hand it's an alternate interpretation that's, given other interpretations pushed forth and with the veracity of several other claims that have been made 'round these parts in the last two months, outstandingly solid by comparison. A given individual either believes it or not, and by believing in it or not they're harming no one else and regardless, others have the right and ability to just ignore it for the lack of harm it does.

So naturally the response is KILL IT WITH FIRE! In the end, it just goes to show how hellbent certain people are on hating the ending and BW, and damn the consequences and collateral.

The only reason some care is because some of those who believe in it won't shut up about it. They keep bringing it up and up and trying to convert people because obviously that's the only correct interpretation of the ending. They're like the Jehova's Witnesses of the ending theory world.

People have debated the veracity of the theory based on semantic arguments of how within scientific parlance a theory may for all terms and purposes be considered what a layman would call a law, such as the theory of relativity.

I mean really? Because it's called the "theory of relativity" "indoctrination theory" carries the same weight or at least should be given the same benefit of the doubt? What.

If it was just an idea some people believed in without bringing it up all over the place I doubt many would care but it's taken on a life of its own that just doesn't seem able to function unless constantly prodded at.

Visible LOGIC is lost on this one.

[Feanor_II]

IT is just that: a THEORY by fans

[pharsti]

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

Why should a care for an irony about fanfiction?

Maybe because there's a basis for the fan fiction?


Seriously, I recommend the Final Hours app, got some great info.

I like how people seem to ignore the "this sequence was ultimately dropped", makes perfect sense.

Seriously, the IT is fanfiction, doesnt matter if they were planning to use any kind of indoctrination scene or not, all that matters is that it was not used.
Then again, this is all useless because the denial is just too strong XD

[balance5050]

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Er... it's not quite the same thing. Shepard has first-hand experience in-game and concrete proof that these things have happened. IT is a theory for a reason- not because it's bad, not because it's stupid, but because the evidence isn't air-tight the way Shepard's is in game.

Plus Shepard was provably indoctrinated not 5 minutes before he met Justin Beiber.  Or had he always wanted to shoot Anderson?

The REALLY weird thing about that is TIM was studying how to control reaper forces, not organics.

reaper forces are organics, with synthetic parts. He was studying indoctrination.

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.

The fact that TIM uses indoctrination tech in that sequence (that's the only thing it could be), means that even if you believe that encounter is real, then Shepard has been indoctrinated by the time he meets the Starchild.

I agree, that that tech shouldn't manipulate Shepard without affecting his thoughts. This is why i believe Shepard's still unconscious infront of the portal thing in London, having been knocked unconscious by a near hit from a reaper laser (which i'm pretty sure the codex says isn't really a laser, but that's not really so important)

Recently there have been some development in the theory; if you combine this information here: http://www.reddit.co...t_breakthrough/ 

with the fact that the dreams start in blackness and not white, some of us are starting to think that the hallucination may have started at the mako crash right before the conduit run, as shown here:
 

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening

Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.

Lol wut, "superstituos awe", you're describing the Catalyst in accurate terms just to support IT. The Catalyst doesn't convibce you to pick anyway, just lays out the information you need to make an informed choice

[OH-UP-THIS!]

dreman9999 wrote...

davishepard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Do not they said they changed the ending...Mean how it played out changed. Also, not states that indoctrination was totaly cut out anyway.

I see that you will never understand that the said endgame sequence was dropped. Not changed. So be it.

You also ignores that said nothing about indocrination in the text quoted, just "Shepard movements being controlled by the Reapers". Movements.

But go on.

Hey, Dave....I like you to meet BeneZia.....A person who is under reaper control to the point they control her movements.....:innocent:

Sorry slight correction.

Indoctrinated subjects being controlled remotely, oh YEAH, Benezia, Liaras' mother, wasn't she in THE FIRST GAME!!!!!??

Being controlled by Soveriegn?

Irony, yeah she wasn't being controlled, uh huh.

[Raiil]

KingZayd wrote...




no, it involves not giving in to indoc.. YET. it's resisting indoctrination, as many have before him. of course, this cannot last forever, as those before him have shown..

Well, I really wouldn't put it as 'many before him', seeing as it's borderline impossible do, and each case (with the singular exception of Shiala) involves Shepard basically b---hslapping them with entreaties and logic to do so. Shepard doesn't get that with God Child. And resisting, breaking, all of it involves Shepard, on some level, going against the Reapers and willfully doing so, meaning that on some level, he has to realise his thinking isn't his.

Modifié par Valentia X, 05 mai 2012 - 05:44 .

[balance5050]

pharsti wrote...

DJBare wrote...

davishepard wrote...

Why should a care for an irony about fanfiction?

Maybe because there's a basis for the fan fiction?


Seriously, I recommend the Final Hours app, got some great info.

I like how people seem to ignore the "this sequence was ultimately dropped", makes perfect sense.

Seriously, the IT is fanfiction, doesnt matter if they were planning to use any kind of indoctrination scene or not, all that matters is that it was not used.
Then again, this is all useless because the denial is just too strong XD

Did you know there there is going to be an "extended cut" this summer? did you know that bioware asked for 6 extra months to work on the game and only got 3? Just because something was dropped doesn't mean it can't be reimplimented.

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 05:47 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?

You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening

Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.

Lol wut, "superstituos awe", you're describing the Catalyst in accurate terms just to support IT. The Catalyst doesn't convibce you to pick anyway, just lays out the information you need to make an informed choice

Does the catalyst not present himself as a god figure?
The "informed" choice is always destroy, always.

EDIT: You're right! I am using accurate terms aren't I?

Modifié par balance5050, 05 mai 2012 - 05:47 .

[balance5050]

FUS ROH DAH FTW wrote...

Such news and i see people are still interesting in wasting their time believing IT theory is true, i'm gonna enjoy seeing you people fail hard once you realize Bioware doesn't care a tiny f*ck about you or their fans and all those theorys and retake movement for nothing, see ya and stop being stupid.

Such a well spoken and kind person!

[OH-UP-THIS!]

DJBare wrote...

Hmmm, I keep returning to even my points being moot, Shepard never made it to the beam in my opinion, he/she is buried unconscious in some rubble, but that's just me, everything after harby's laser makes little to no sense.

Less sense even, equating to a negative number, would be more appropriate.

Completely agree about the location of Shep.

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.

Yet, you are clearly wrong.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.

Yet, you are clearly wrong.

Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.