1357 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

 @dreman9999

 

with the OP.

Bravo sir.... bravo.

[KevShep]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

SPOILERS FOR MASS EFFECT: RETRIBUTION (Sorry about the caps, trying to make the line as obvious as possible.)





So, near the end of Retribution, we have Kahlee Sanders talking to Paul Grayson, or rather, to the Reapers controlling his body. The following happens.

Scene starts out with Kahlee and Grayson/Reapers walking and talking. At the beginning of the chat, Kahlee is arguing his logic, arguing that chaos is part of what makes us unique, that uniqueness is a good thing, and that she doesn't want to be ascended, she want to be herself. However, by the end of the conversation:

The words didn't really make any kind of compelling argument, but she felt as if there was some deeper meaning to them.

(Reaper quote amounting to 'we are infinity, you are nothing; you should give in to us'.)

The more Grayson spoke, the more his words seemed to make sense on a deep, almost subconscious level.

(Reaper quote amounting to 'resistance is futile'.)

Kahlee was so far under the Reapers's (sic) spell, she wasn't even aware she was nodding along in agreement.

Anyone who's finished the game has witnessed a very similar scene. Shepard meets the Starkid, starts out by arguing with his logic, and ends by offering only the vaguest resistance to his logic and proposals.
"Maybe."
"So the Illusive Man was right after all."
"I...don't know."
All that's lacking is the nodding along. In each case, the person being persuaded was right next to an avatar of the Reapers, and in each case the conversation continued for a few minutes. Whether or not a victim is already indoctrinated, it seems it is possible for the Reapers to exert some form of control over his/her mind. While not IT proper, this scene does seem to indicate that there was SOME form of mind-control going on in the Starkid scene.

nice find. I was mad when I could not tell the kid to F**K OFF and that he is full of sh*t about TIM being right.

Modifié par KevShep, 07 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[Raiil]

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Kev, I am asking you for a simple yes or no answer. 

I am not asking you to deny IT.
I am not asking you for irefutable proof of IT.
I am not asking you for a deep answer.
I am not asking you for your opinion on the Final Apps information. I am well aware of what it says.

I am asking you for a simple yes or no: does the fact that BioWare has a record of leaving portions of cut/scrapped material on the discs, and in game, mean that as a reasonable alternative to IT, they may have simply recycled some parts like the tree reflections and the indoc squiggly rays?

That is all I am asking you at the moment.

Yes they can. Why were you asking in the first place by the way?

Well, for starters, because we're having a conversation, and I try not to ignore people who comment to me. 

Secondly, reasonable doubt. As I've attempted to point out before, IT is not a complete fallacy, but neither is it ironclad. There are other explanations for most of the data put forth by pro-ITers that have other potential, reasonable explanations, and they need to be acknowledged. 

I am not asking for any ITer to give up their beliefs/preferences. What I am asking for is that some sort of understanding that no theory, not even IT, has any sort of substantial proof that conclusively states that the only reasonable explanation is (theory of your choice here). Virtually every theory floating out there relies partially on circular logic and assumptions that cannot be proved at this time.

No one knows, precisely, what God Child is. We don't know if he's Harbinger in disguise, an AI, just an incredibly advanced VI, or Kasumi and Zaeed playing shadow puppets in the corner.
No one knows if indoctrination can cause any sort of hallucination, including a projected image of a child Shepard has only seen, IRL and not in dreams, precisely once in his life.


All evidence needs to show that in order for A to be true, it must fulfill B, C, D and E. Right now, no theory can completely fulfill all necessary data. That is why the EC is being made; it's connecting the dots.

For example, in order to state beyond a reasonable doubt that Shepard's breathing body is in London, you must prove the following:

A = Shepard is on Earth. A must fulfull B, C, D, E.
B = Shepard appears to be lying in rubble after the Citadel exploded. This may or may not count as conclusive proof, as theoretically Shepard could be in London, or have been blown into a wing of the Citadel by the blast. More data is required.
C = If the case is true and Shepard is on Earth, he was directly above London. Because super long-distance teleportation is not avaliable, we can reasonably assume that he's in London and not in Rio de Janerio.
D = Shepard appears to be lying in a pile of concrete. There is no concrete visible on the Citadel. This is where the hypothesis fails for the moment, as you need to fulfill the following subrequirement:

1. There is no concrete on the Citadel- this is not demonstrably true. We don't see concrete, or a concrete like structure on the Citadel; however, that is not proof that it's not there. You can see no concrete in my house; this does not mean the foundations and walls aren't made of concrete, merely that you can't see them.

No theory or hypothesis floating around can completely fulfill enough requirements to be taken as gospel. Ergo, there is reasonable doubt.

[DTKT]

Well said Valentia. As the name implies, the IT is a theory. There are no conclusive proofs and too many "if".

I guess we will have to wait till the summer to find out the answers!

[CavScout]

KevShep wrote...
I was mad when I could not tell the kid to F**K OFF and that he is full of sh*t about TIM being right.

Don't select control then.... you do have a choice.

[balance5050]

I think I.T. is just fun to talk about personally. Might not be true, but it's an interesting interpretation that cannot truly be disproved or proved.

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 05:11 .

[KevShep]

Valentia X wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Kev, I am asking you for a simple yes or no answer. 

I am not asking you to deny IT.
I am not asking you for irefutable proof of IT.
I am not asking you for a deep answer.
I am not asking you for your opinion on the Final Apps information. I am well aware of what it says.

I am asking you for a simple yes or no: does the fact that BioWare has a record of leaving portions of cut/scrapped material on the discs, and in game, mean that as a reasonable alternative to IT, they may have simply recycled some parts like the tree reflections and the indoc squiggly rays?

That is all I am asking you at the moment.

Yes they can. Why were you asking in the first place by the way?

Well, for starters, because we're having a conversation, and I try not to ignore people who comment to me. 

Secondly, reasonable doubt. As I've attempted to point out before, IT is not a complete fallacy, but neither is it ironclad. There are other explanations for most of the data put forth by pro-ITers that have other potential, reasonable explanations, and they need to be acknowledged. 

I am not asking for any ITer to give up their beliefs/preferences. What I am asking for is that some sort of understanding that no theory, not even IT, has any sort of substantial proof that conclusively states that the only reasonable explanation is (theory of your choice here). Virtually every theory floating out there relies partially on circular logic and assumptions that cannot be proved at this time.

No one knows, precisely, what God Child is. We don't know if he's Harbinger in disguise, an AI, just an incredibly advanced VI, or Kasumi and Zaeed playing shadow puppets in the corner.
No one knows if indoctrination can cause any sort of hallucination, including a projected image of a child Shepard has only seen, IRL and not in dreams, precisely once in his life.


All evidence needs to show that in order for A to be true, it must fulfill B, C, D and E. Right now, no theory can completely fulfill all necessary data. That is why the EC is being made; it's connecting the dots.

For example, in order to state beyond a reasonable doubt that Shepard's breathing body is in London, you must prove the following:

A = Shepard is on Earth. A must fulfull B, C, D, E.
B = Shepard appears to be lying in rubble after the Citadel exploded. This may or may not count as conclusive proof, as theoretically Shepard could be in London, or have been blown into a wing of the Citadel by the blast. More data is required.
C = If the case is true and Shepard is on Earth, he was directly above London. Because super long-distance teleportation is not avaliable, we can reasonably assume that he's in London and not in Rio de Janerio.
D = Shepard appears to be lying in a pile of concrete. There is no concrete visible on the Citadel. This is where the hypothesis fails for the moment, as you need to fulfill the following subrequirement:

1. There is no concrete on the Citadel- this is not demonstrably true. We don't see concrete, or a concrete like structure on the Citadel; however, that is not proof that it's not there. You can see no concrete in my house; this does not mean the foundations and walls aren't made of concrete, merely that you can't see them.

No theory or hypothesis floating around can completely fulfill enough requirements to be taken as gospel. Ergo, there is reasonable doubt.

 Thank you for being civil and respectfull. Without conformation from Bioware we cant say for a fact.

There are things I would like to point out. You said that no one knows if indoctrination can cause hallucinations. In the codex it says that they can and they can also make you see things that are not really there(the kid).

Also Bioware wanted "speculations" this means that they wanted us to make sense of it all, or at least try. You are right that it can still be anything but all the things about indoctrination are happening to shepard.

[KevShep]

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...
I was mad when I could not tell the kid to F**K OFF and that he is full of sh*t about TIM being right.

Don't select control then.... you do have a choice.

Thats what I did. We dont need him or his tech. We will achieve that tech on our own terms. 

[Peytl]

Valentia X wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Kev, I am asking you for a simple yes or no answer. 

I am not asking you to deny IT.
I am not asking you for irefutable proof of IT.
I am not asking you for a deep answer.
I am not asking you for your opinion on the Final Apps information. I am well aware of what it says.

I am asking you for a simple yes or no: does the fact that BioWare has a record of leaving portions of cut/scrapped material on the discs, and in game, mean that as a reasonable alternative to IT, they may have simply recycled some parts like the tree reflections and the indoc squiggly rays?

That is all I am asking you at the moment.

Yes they can. Why were you asking in the first place by the way?

Well, for starters, because we're having a conversation, and I try not to ignore people who comment to me. 

Secondly, reasonable doubt. As I've attempted to point out before, IT is not a complete fallacy, but neither is it ironclad. There are other explanations for most of the data put forth by pro-ITers that have other potential, reasonable explanations, and they need to be acknowledged. 

I am not asking for any ITer to give up their beliefs/preferences. What I am asking for is that some sort of understanding that no theory, not even IT, has any sort of substantial proof that conclusively states that the only reasonable explanation is (theory of your choice here). Virtually every theory floating out there relies partially on circular logic and assumptions that cannot be proved at this time.

No one knows, precisely, what God Child is. We don't know if he's Harbinger in disguise, an AI, just an incredibly advanced VI, or Kasumi and Zaeed playing shadow puppets in the corner.
No one knows if indoctrination can cause any sort of hallucination, including a projected image of a child Shepard has only seen, IRL and not in dreams, precisely once in his life.


All evidence needs to show that in order for A to be true, it must fulfill B, C, D and E. Right now, no theory can completely fulfill all necessary data. That is why the EC is being made; it's connecting the dots.

For example, in order to state beyond a reasonable doubt that Shepard's breathing body is in London, you must prove the following:

A = Shepard is on Earth. A must fulfull B, C, D, E.
B = Shepard appears to be lying in rubble after the Citadel exploded. This may or may not count as conclusive proof, as theoretically Shepard could be in London, or have been blown into a wing of the Citadel by the blast. More data is required.
C = If the case is true and Shepard is on Earth, he was directly above London. Because super long-distance teleportation is not avaliable, we can reasonably assume that he's in London and not in Rio de Janerio.
D = Shepard appears to be lying in a pile of concrete. There is no concrete visible on the Citadel. This is where the hypothesis fails for the moment, as you need to fulfill the following subrequirement:

1. There is no concrete on the Citadel- this is not demonstrably true. We don't see concrete, or a concrete like structure on the Citadel; however, that is not proof that it's not there. You can see no concrete in my house; this does not mean the foundations and walls aren't made of concrete, merely that you can't see them.

No theory or hypothesis floating around can completely fulfill enough requirements to be taken as gospel. Ergo, there is reasonable doubt.

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

[Raiil]

KevShep wrote...



 Thank you for being civil and respectfull. Without conformation from Bioware we cant say for a fact.

There are things I would like to point out. You said that no one knows if indoctrination can cause hallucinations. In the codex it says that they can and they can also make you see things that are not really there(the kid).

Also Bioware wanted "speculations" this means that they wanted us to make sense of it all, or at least try. You are right that it can still be anything but all the things about indoctrination are happening to shepard.

I missed that part of the codex, thanks for reminding me. With that, I'll concede the possibility that the child is at some point a hallucination.

As for speculations, I would argue that their intention may have been for us to speculate which choice was the least ethically deplorable, and the fate of the galaxy afterwards. Indoctrination is one of many possibilities and I don't think (as someone who doesn't follow IT) that it's what they meant. 

[TreguardD]

By the way. Stop quoting "Final Hours", it is not Bioware, and it is not Word of God. The only way it could have backpedaled away from any further is is an out right pulling from the Ap Store

[balance5050]

Peytl wrote...

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

The hallucination may have started on the citadel, when Shepard passed out from blood loss.

[KevShep]

Peytl wrote...


1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

Thats iffy at best. you cant breath in a vaccume as shepard would since destroy destroys all reaper tech(like the citadel).

notice the gray concrete blocks, here is a video of london...  

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KevShep wrote...
I was mad when I could not tell the kid to F**K OFF and that he is full of sh*t about TIM being right.

Don't select control then.... you do have a choice.

Thats what I did. We dont need him or his tech. We will achieve that tech on our own terms. 

And this right here is what bioware intended all along. You're choice was to destroy the reapers. Other players would be ok with Control and some would even like to be like them. The reached a huge audience by introducing these three choices.

In the end, most people will see the better of the three based on their personallities and stick with it. The speculation comes in after when you realise that EDI is dead or alive ready to make babies.Or if the Geth get destroyed or not or if Shepard lives.

Not whether Shepard was indoctrinated. Becaus in all three cases of IT, the reapers win.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

Peytl wrote...

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

The hallucination may have started on the citadel, when Shepard passed out from blood loss.

So wouldn't Shepard wake up where he left off, in the control room?

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

Peytl wrote...


1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

Thats iffy at best. you cant breath in a vaccume as shepard would since destroy destroys all reaper tech(like the citadel).

notice the gray concrete blocks, here is a video of london...  

I keep posting this video, I wonder if people recognize it by the link by now. I know Balance5050 might lol.

[KevShep]

Valentia X wrote...

KevShep wrote...



 Thank you for being civil and respectfull. Without conformation from Bioware we cant say for a fact.

There are things I would like to point out. You said that no one knows if indoctrination can cause hallucinations. In the codex it says that they can and they can also make you see things that are not really there(the kid).

Also Bioware wanted "speculations" this means that they wanted us to make sense of it all, or at least try. You are right that it can still be anything but all the things about indoctrination are happening to shepard.

I missed that part of the codex, thanks for reminding me. With that, I'll concede the possibility that the child is at some point a hallucination.

As for speculations, I would argue that their intention may have been for us to speculate which choice was the least ethically deplorable, and the fate of the galaxy afterwards. Indoctrination is one of many possibilities and I don't think (as someone who doesn't follow IT) that it's what they meant. 

 to indoctrinate the character you also have to indoctrinated the player along side one another. The last part of the game where you see the normandy flying off and maybe shepards playing it out in his/her head with or without reaper involvment due to the illusion success. Then shepard wakes up!

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Peytl wrote...

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

The hallucination may have started on the citadel, when Shepard passed out from blood loss.

So wouldn't Shepard wake up where he left off, in the control room?

Yes, after the crucible goes boom, debris could fall into the control room, makes more sense than a megaton explosion going off not 10 meters above your head, no?

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 05:27 .

[balance5050]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Peytl wrote...

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

The hallucination may have started on the citadel, when Shepard passed out from blood loss.

So wouldn't Shepard wake up where he left off, in the control room?

Yes, after the crucible goes boom, debris could fall into the control room, makes more sense than a megaton explosion going off not 10 meters above your head, no?

What I mean by this is that the casper scene could be meant to influence what you do at the command console.

[balance5050]

YO dreman9999!!!! You here??

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Peytl wrote...


1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

Thats iffy at best. you cant breath in a vaccume as shepard would since destroy destroys all reaper tech(like the citadel).

notice the gray concrete blocks, here is a video of london...  

I keep posting this video, I wonder if people recognize it by the link by now. I know Balance5050 might lol.

 some one needs to do a fly cam of the harbinger beam part of london on the sides were the rubble is.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Peytl wrote...

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

The hallucination may have started on the citadel, when Shepard passed out from blood loss.

So wouldn't Shepard wake up where he left off, in the control room?

Yes, after the crucible goes boom, debris could fall into the control room, makes more sense than a megaton explosion going off not 10 meters above your head, no?

But then that implies that the crucible never fired and the reapers live. At least in two of the three scenarios.

And I don't think the actual crucible blew up. But let's not get into all that. There's way too little footage to get into.

[dreman9999]

CavScout wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

@OP
The IT is derived using circular logic and evidence that is at best, circumstantial.

IT at this point like said in my last post a theory created by the fans to help them deal with the ending and keep them able to play ME3 or the ME series over. If IT was true it wouldve been made plainly obivious or hinted at bigger than it was. 

Yeah. Well put.
Also, most of the "evidence" for IT has a much simpler non-IT explanation.

Heck, most "evidence" for IT isn't even evidence. Most are un-related points that IT folks try and connect. Simple apophenia.

http://social.biowar...75/blog/212630/ 

Like I said, circumstantial evidence and circular logic.

Fact 1. People are indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

Fact 2. People that at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.  

You can't look at this first or you end up with circular logic...

Theory should follow evidence, not the other way around.

How is it circular logic if the lore and story states this is how indoctrination works? These are facts, meaning they are evidence to support the theory. Also, I would you refer you to the first statemnet for this topic on the case of proof...

You missed the point. I just can't tell if it is out of ignorance, malice or something else. Maybe this will help: http://en.wikipedia....cular_reasoning

But it's still not circular or 
circumstantial.

You missing the point that the base nature of of where indoctrination comes from is stated in myfirst point is illustation how it works. My third point is pointed to the chances Shepard could be indoctrinated. It  can only be a circular logic if fact1 was the only fact used.
But I'm using 8.......Out of the 8, 3 stated how it works, 2 state the shown simtums of indoctrination,2 show the times Shepard got in contact with indoctination waves, and1 is illustating that Shep show symtom of indoctrination.

The problem is you cut a few out to focus on when the point is that all points have to be seen as one. All my point is say that Shepard is near reaper tech from the start of ME1 through ME3...This tech has the chance to indoctrinated him. That the signs of it is whispers and strange dreams......And suddenly, after years of being near reaper tech, shepard is having strange dreams with whispers in it. It deductive. It 's the same logic use with colds and sickness, ifyour near a sick person alot their is a chance you will get sick. That's deductive , not circular.

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Peytl wrote...


1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

Thats iffy at best. you cant breath in a vaccume as shepard would since destroy destroys all reaper tech(like the citadel).

notice the gray concrete blocks, here is a video of london...  

I keep posting this video, I wonder if people recognize it by the link by now. I know Balance5050 might lol.

 some one needs to do a fly cam of the harbinger beam part of london on the sides were the rubble is.

Did that, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyZCGSQip90

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Peytl wrote...

1. There are cables that can be found only on the Citadel (and it's not rebar as IT keeps repeating)  There are no cables anywhere close to the Conduit. If you listen closely the scene after Shep wakes up, you can hear screeching noises that sound as a ship rocking on a sea.

The hallucination may have started on the citadel, when Shepard passed out from blood loss.

So wouldn't Shepard wake up where he left off, in the control room?

Yes, after the crucible goes boom, debris could fall into the control room, makes more sense than a megaton explosion going off not 10 meters above your head, no?

What I mean by this is that the casper scene could be meant to influence what you do at the command console.

So you're saying that his dream directly influenced the crucible somehow.

Hmm IDK.