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The contridiction of Anti-IT....


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#126
CavScout

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?


You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening


Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.


Giving you a choice to actually destroy them doesn't sound like indoctrination at all.

#127
ev76

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Subastris but the IT theorists believe it actually was tried on Shepard. Specifically leading up to, and the citadel scenes. I think it is a great possibility since ( using illusive mans on words to help the cause) it's all there buried in the data. Plus two of the choices given to you by the creator reaper are choices that two indoctrinated characters would of chosen. This alone gives it a great possibility that in fact they tried to indoctrinate Shepard.

#128
CavScout

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balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.


Yet, you are clearly wrong.


Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.


You're the one claiming indoctrination, not I.

#129
CavScout

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ev76 wrote...

Subastris but the IT theorists believe it actually was tried on Shepard. Specifically leading up to, and the citadel scenes. I think it is a great possibility since ( using illusive mans on words to help the cause) it's all there buried in the data. Plus two of the choices given to you by the creator reaper are choices that two indoctrinated characters would of chosen. This alone gives it a great possibility that in fact they tried to indoctrinate Shepard.


I don't think you know what "facts" are....

#130
balance5050

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FUS ROH DAH FTW wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

FUS ROH DAH FTW wrote...

Such news and i see people are still interesting in wasting their time believing IT theory is true, i'm gonna enjoy seeing you people fail hard once you realize Bioware doesn't care a tiny f*ck about you or their fans and all those theorys and retake movement for nothing, see ya and stop being stupid.


Such a well spoken and kind person!

Why thank you, i have no problem with that ! but we will see when you people cry out after not getting what you wanted oh all that wasted time of your life, sounds great really. :devil:


Clearly you don't undertand sarcasm, if you wish to be taken seriously you need to provide a grounds to debate, how about any of this:

The evidence is that he wakes up amongst concrete rubble after just being in the middle of this:

Image IPB  

Image IPB 
Image IPB 

Also, the white light "dream transition effect is very telling that the ending could be a combination of a dream and being somehow mentally linked to some reaper somehow.


Dreams
http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

  
Shepard in Geth consensus

Image IPB

The ending

Image IPB  

Tree reflections in the Catalyst Chamber:
Image IPB

http://i.imgur.com/RIIzj.jpg 

Image IPB

http://img72.imagesh...5148/treees.png   

Also, look at Shepards eyes when he chooses either control or synthesize

Image IPB 

#131
balance5050

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CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.


Yet, you are clearly wrong.


Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.


You're the one claiming indoctrination, not I.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series. 

#132
OH-UP-THIS!

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MidnightRaith wrote...

I'm not Anti-IT because of IT's merits or lack thereof. I'm against it because its supporters don't seem to understand the implications for Bioware and Mass Effect as an IP, or the video game genre in general, if it were done. Quite frankly, it is not a good idea simply because it would be Bioware freely admitting that they did not sell you a game that had an ending. Yes, we all thought that the ending to ME3 would be good, but that's not necessarily what Bioware told us. (They lied about plenty of things, but not about whether or not the ending would be to our satisfaction.) However, what was always never in doubt was that ME3 was the end. This game was it, the last chapter to the Shepard story. Nothing more was supposed to come. IT is completely different than a retcon or "clarification" because it is building on the premise that the Reaper war did not end and that Shepard is meant to wake up and continue to fight. That is not an ending.

Could you even imagine the backlash that would occur if IT was what BW initially came out with? The only reason it has the support that it does is because its followers are so disappointed with what we actually got. It's a coping mechanism and I believe this wholeheartedly. However, just because what we got was crap, does not mean that "anything is better than the ending to ME3." Image IPB No. No, not everything is better than Starchild. Let me outline my reasoning.

The way I see it, if Bioware released an ending supporting IT, there would be one of two reactions. The first, would be fans loving it. (I would not be of that number....) Okay, yeah, so you like it. You like the fact that Bioware did not release a full game with an ending and that we had to get DLC to finish it. So, how many of you hate Day 1 DLC? Do you support IT as well? Because, if you do, then you are perhaps unknowingly acting the hypocrite. Just how would that translate to other developers? Just how long would it take to forget the fact that the EC was free, but remember that the fans responded positively to it? Would there be an influx of games not ending and the creation of End Game DLC? So, it's $60 to buy a game, but wait! You have to spend an additional twenty to get the Day 1 DLC and the End Game DLC. Image IPB

The other reaction would be if the majority of the fans hate the EC with IT. I'd be the one that would hate it. Think about it, Bioware has just released the ending of the game that was supposed to be... the end of the game you have already bought and played. Here is where they swindled you. And this is even more blatant than than the quotes we keep throwing around with Hudson claiming that we'd get more than three endings. If the fans don't act favorably to IT, then it could spell the end for Bioware. Bioware just lied about the fact that ME3 was the ending of the trilogy. What else will the lie about in the future? Can we even trust their plot summaries for future IPs? What could we trust them on if they are willing to lie about something like this?

Even if Bioware implements IT as an afterthought, that they didn't even plan for this, it would still give off the impression that they did not end their game and that they are willing to release DLC to end it. It sets a horrible precedent that will either end Bioware by completely shattering their fanbase's trust in them for even the most basic of things. Or, it will create a new "hip" way to tell a story in videogames and both are awful. As for Mass Effect? People would abandon it completely if IT is done. I don't think for even a second that IT supporters are in the majority. People would hate it. Even now, with the ending as they are, I am still willing to buy things with the Mass Effect IP on them. Not necessarily DLC, but comics, books and the like. What about future Mass Effect games? (If those are even possible....) Many people are willing to look at the prospect to new ME games with the endings as is. Can that be said if IT is done?

So no. I'm not Anti-IT because of lack of proof, or that it sounds silly, or that it's filled with plotholes. Or the opposite. I"m anti-IT because the idea is stupid. All around stupid. Not on its merits, but simply as an idea to implement and stand behind as the end all lore for ME. Harsh, maybe, but in my mind, IT carries massive consequences. Consequences that supportes don't seem to even consider. Just that it looks better than what we got.



But here's the RUB, where is the ending?

I saw NO conclusion, I saw a bunch of ridiculous cutscenes p-poorly editted,  But what I didn't see was a PROPER finish, you know, uh, where the Devs install, and USE an EPILOGUE, that clearly defines our ENDGAME actions, good or bad, I don't give a flyin' frag who lives or dies, I just NEED to know, CONCLUSIVELY.

Don't even get me started on Star-twit, that idiotic scene SHOULD be torched, with the authors belongings, and lots of flammable liquids.

#133
CavScout

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balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.


Yet, you are clearly wrong.


Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.


You're the one claiming indoctrination, not I.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series. 


Why would I bother? You're just going to claim the entire scene was fake anyway... that it wasn't real.

#134
balance5050

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CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.


Yet, you are clearly wrong.


Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.


You're the one claiming indoctrination, not I.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series. 


Why would I bother? You're just going to claim the entire scene was fake anyway... that it wasn't real.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series.  

#135
DTKT

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It also ignores most of the info we've had from the Final Hours app both script leaks, and everything we've datamined from the game.

It's nothing more than fanfiction.

#136
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...


Recently there have been some development in the theory; if you combine this information: http://www.reddit.co...t_breakthrough/ 


This is not exactly a great piece of evidence, by the standards of IT even

#137
ev76

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Cavscout The destroy choice is still presented because Shepard is not indoctrinated, you are at the end stages of being indoctrinated. You will either become indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis or you will literally destroy idoctrinations grasp and reapers by choosing that option.

#138
CavScout

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balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.


Yet, you are clearly wrong.


Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.


You're the one claiming indoctrination, not I.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series. 


Why would I bother? You're just going to claim the entire scene was fake anyway... that it wasn't real.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series.  


You're repeating yourself. You don't think that scene actually happened.

#139
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Recently there have been some development in the theory; if you combine this information: http://www.reddit.co...t_breakthrough/ 


This is not exactly a great piece of evidence, by the standards of IT even




It's speculations man, get used to it. Besides that wasn't meant for you.

#140
MakeMineMako

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ohupthis wrote...

Peytl wrote...

There is no proof Shep was undergoing indoctrination, except the ending when TIM was controling both him and Anderson. Hell, TIM is even bragging with his new achieved power. I hope EC DLC will cut the IT where it's supposed to be: in a realm of fanfictions.



Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, you just stated yours, fine!

However, the idea of KNOWING that your character is being Indoctrinated, totally flies in the face of reason!!

I mean COME ON, that's the whole premise/idea, that indoctrination is subtle, not mind-crushingly OBVIOUS, GAH!!!Image IPB



It's not that subtle, unless it is patient, gradual indoctrination. Which generally takes years and depends on how much control the Reaper wants with the victim (if the target is potentially useful).

Everything we see in the games and Codex regarding indoctrination, can just as easily be used to argue against the IT.

I think the Indoctrination Theory is clever and thought out. But there are problems with it lore-wise and narrative wise.

Modifié par MakeMineMako, 05 mai 2012 - 06:05 .


#141
Tigerman123

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I don't understand why people don't spam IT threads with that DLC ad you get at the end of the game, Bioware explicitly say that the Reapers are beaten, so what the hell is there to talk about?

#142
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?


You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening


Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.


Lol wut, "superstituos awe", you're describing the Catalyst in accurate terms just to support IT. The Catalyst doesn't convibce you to pick anyway, just lays out the information you need to make an informed choice


Does the catalyst not present himself as a god figure?
The "informed" choice is always destroy, always.

EDIT: You're right! I am using accurate terms aren't I?


He says he is controls the Reapers, does that mean he should be held with superstitous awe? Not really.
Your argument falls down also by saying that the Catalyst tries to convince you to pick control and synthesis.

So no, you are being obtuse

#143
balance5050

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CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Point being he shouldn't have been able to control Shepard the way he did.


Yet, you are clearly wrong.


Or am I? Indoctrination is control of the mind not the body.


You're the one claiming indoctrination, not I.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series. 


Why would I bother? You're just going to claim the entire scene was fake anyway... that it wasn't real.


What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series.  


You're repeating yourself. You don't think that scene actually happened.


Of course it happened :blink:

Are you unable to answer questions? or are you a n00b to the series?

What was TIM studying then? What do those black wavy lines signify? Think about the other times we see those lines in the series.   

#144
Raiil

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ev76 wrote...

Cavscout The destroy choice is still presented because Shepard is not indoctrinated, you are at the end stages of being indoctrinated. You will either become indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis or you will literally destroy idoctrinations grasp and reapers by choosing that option.


Then when does the game end?

When do we take back Earth? EC is supposed to be clarification, not a gameplay extension, and is being put out because of fan outcry. And why would a business eager to squeeze every last spare copper we have put out a DLC that only part of the fanbase could use, if there was supposed to be a 'real' ending DLC?
'

#145
CavScout

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ev76 wrote...

Cavscout The destroy choice is still presented because Shepard is not indoctrinated, you are at the end stages of being indoctrinated. You will either become indoctrinated by choosing control or synthesis or you will literally destroy idoctrinations grasp and reapers by choosing that option.


According to IT, it's all fake anyways. It's a dream. Why offer an actuall solution? Hell, why is Destroy sometimes the ONLY option?

IT wants us to believe the Shep is so far along in indoctrination that he can't see reality but yet we are to believe the Reapers actually allow him to stop them.

#146
SubAstris

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ev76 wrote...

Subastris but the IT theorists believe it actually was tried on Shepard. Specifically leading up to, and the citadel scenes. I think it is a great possibility since ( using illusive mans on words to help the cause) it's all there buried in the data. Plus two of the choices given to you by the creator reaper are choices that two indoctrinated characters would of chosen. This alone gives it a great possibility that in fact they tried to indoctrinate Shepard.


I realise, I just think there is very little good evidence to support such an assertion. The fact that two choices out of three which were offered would have been chosen by indoctrinated people doesn't mean Shepard is indoctrinated at all

#147
ev76

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Cavscout " I don't think you know what fact are.." very mature. :)

#148
pharsti

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balance5050 wrote...

Did you know there there is going to be an "extended cut" this summer? did you know that bioware asked for 6 extra months to work on the game and only got 3? Just because something was dropped doesn't mean it can't be reimplimented.


Oh yes, i must be honest here and say i am looking forward to the EC, it might just fix the biggest issues i have with it (i surely want to see them try!) and if nothing else, ill enjoy the reaction of everyone who still believes in a fanfiction as real XD

If nothing else i hope the EC puts an end to all the IT talk.... then again, i thought the IT talk would stop the very first day i finished the game and read it (while laughing my ass off i must say XD never was good at taking nonsensical fanfictions seriously XD)..... and look at it, its still here -_-.

I can understand wanting to retcon the mess we were given mind you, after all, that is the point of the IT, but i just.... cant.... deny the obvious, besides, the space magic is actually better writting than the IT.
Although.... bravo BW for somehow making an end to a game so bad that some people would actually want one of the worst plot devices ever made in storytelling (it was all a dream\\not real!) to be used instead of it, bravo i say.

#149
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

ev76 wrote...

Funny how the biggest weapon the reapers have, indoctrination is dissmissed so quickly by people. Why shouldn't the reapers attempt to indoctrinate the biggest threat to them? All that end sequence could of happened real time. Edi explained to you how she had to fight Eva core for the body. Shepard fought the reaper virus while in a pod not moving. Then there is the three choices where the creator of the reapers is giving you a choice to destroy it's creations, control them or synthesis them. Two of those options where the solution given by two indoctrinated people (saren and tim) the third is seemingly the option that we where playing for the whole time (destroy).
It also felt at the end like I lost control of my Shepard, as in not enough dialogue. There is also the codex for indoctrination. In the end Is far fetch to think that one of the biggest weapons the reapers have was attemtpted on Shepard? Or is it far fetched that the biggest weapon the reapors had was never attempted on Shepard?


You will find that most people do not dismiss the idea of the Reapers wanting to indoctrinate Shep, but of course that is very different to it actually happening


Yep, a god like presence that can be viewed with superstitious awe trying to convince you that you can either control the reapers or combine organics and synthetics into an ultimate life form doesn't sound like an indoctrination attempt at all.... that was sarcasm btw.


Lol wut, "superstituos awe", you're describing the Catalyst in accurate terms just to support IT. The Catalyst doesn't convibce you to pick anyway, just lays out the information you need to make an informed choice


Does the catalyst not present himself as a god figure?
The "informed" choice is always destroy, always.

EDIT: You're right! I am using accurate terms aren't I?


He says he is controls the Reapers, does that mean he should be held with superstitous awe? Not really.
Your argument falls down also by saying that the Catalyst tries to convince you to pick control and synthesis.

So no, you are being obtuse


Reapers: a race of sentient living ships who continuosly destroy life every 50000 years. Considering they regard themselves as gods, I would say that the little dude who controls them seems kinda awe inspiring if you think about it no?

Are control and synthesis not portaryed as optimal compared to destroy?

#150
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Recently there have been some development in the theory; if you combine this information: http://www.reddit.co...t_breakthrough/ 


This is not exactly a great piece of evidence, by the standards of IT even




It's speculations man, get used to it. Besides that wasn't meant for you.


I realise. I was just pointing out it was shoddy, pure unfounded speculation