204 réponses à ce sujet

[Unschuld]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Sometimes I think the Talimance is wasted on people who don't even seem to understand all of it. No offence intended.

Edit: This guy below me gets it.

I kinda feel this sometimes.

[antares_sublight]

Oransel wrote...

Tali has always said that interests of the quarian people (even the minor ones) are above anything else, including Shepard. That's where the problem comes. Other LIs are not so attached to their race's as Tali is. Garrus, Kaiden and Liara are ready to abandon their homeworlds and sacrifice a lot of things in the name of their love, while Tali is not. For her quarians will always be more important than Shepard. I see why Shepard is cold.

I disagree. The species of those others are in totally different situations, they're not focused on their homeworlds in the same way. And Tali gives no reason to believe she'd choose quarians in general over Shepard. She goes with him on a Cerberus ship, on a suicide mission, and so on. 

[Dont Kaidan Me]

Phatose wrote...
No.  She doesn't.

Would like like to me link videos?

If I didn't care about Tali....well, maybe she takes a rockets to the face on the collector base because Grunt could prove himself leading squad 2.  Maybe she shoots herself on Rannock because Shep wouldn't save her people from their own genocidal madness simply because Shep loved her.

There are some paths where Tali gets a homeworld even Shepard does not care - that isn't equivalent to all paths.  And even where he loved her and stilll tool that path - would he have done it if he didn't care?  It's an awful lot of trouble.  Some Shepards take the hard route - but not all.  Can she tell the difference?

Yes, true true. I suppose I was just speaking within the framework of asserting that Shepard giving Tali a planet is proof of love, and therefore not cold (re:op). My point was that giving Tali a planet is not definitive proof of love, since you have the ability to give her a planet whether you are her LI or not.

Unschuld wrote...

That's like arguing that since the other
you in an alternate universe got a new car for graduating highschool,
but you didn't, something is wrong.

It's an alternate universe. Why should you care?

I hope the above clarified.

Modifié par Dont Kaidan Me, 06 mai 2012 - 07:15 .

[Auralius Carolus]

While I agree that Shepard needs one good, solid "Love" line in there, I found much of the Romance acceptable.

Quite frankly, Tali is a character that's hard to peg on the Romance Board. She shows signs of both commitment and superficiality. Much of her and Shepard's relationship has been distant- physically, culturally, spatially, and genetically. Her behavior is appropriate considering the aforementioned, but this is also a girl who had admittedly grown up distant from other people because of her father's rank. Combine that with the other features, and this young lady is very likely afraid of attachment and confused as to what path she should take.

Shepard would likely have noted this, to some degree, and also been uncertain about her priorities considering that she left him for her people after ME2 and almost went back again. It's simply an awkward relationship. Even if the two overcome all other boundries, they cannot reproduce or consume the same food. Their's is really a saga in and of itself, begging the question if love truly can conquer all.

[Bfler]

antares_sublight wrote...

1. Shepard never says he loves her. She says it multiple times to him, but Shepard never does. In other romances, Shepard says it to the LI, but with Tali it's like he's uncomfortably avoiding it.

Shepard does say" I love you" but  in an indirect way during the final conversation. It is the inversion of their fomer conversations. In earlier stages of the game he asked her if everything is alright now she asks him. On Rannoch she said "I love you", he said "Keelah se'lai". On earth he responds to her question with "I love you" instead of his quote from Rannoch and Tali responds with   "Keelah se'lai".
The final sentence with "I know" also implies that they understand each other in a way that doesn't need words.

[Unschuld]

Dont Kaidan Me wrote...
Yes, true true. I suppose I was just speaking within the framework of asserting that Shepard giving Tali a planet is proof of love, and therefore not cold (re:op). My point was that giving Tali a planet is not definitive proof of love, since you have the ability to give her a planet whether you are her LI or not.

Unschuld wrote...

That's like arguing that since the other
you in an alternate universe got a new car for graduating highschool,
but you didn't, something is wrong.

It's an alternate universe. Why should you care?

Dont Kaidan Me wrote... 
I hope the above clarified.

  

Well, not really. I see what you're getting at, but I still don't agree. Again, it's an alternate universe. Shepard's motivations for giving Tali her planet back depend on who is playing, and how they are playing the character. It could be for war assets, it could be for love, it could be just to be nice, or not at all (Tali---->cliff), or even a combination of some of these examples. What someone else's motivations are shouldn't matter to you, even if the game gives mostly the same result. The real result (the one in your mind), why you did it, is the one that matters.

Modifié par Unschuld, 06 mai 2012 - 07:34 .

[Phatose]

Dont Kaidan Me wrote...

Phatose wrote...
No.  She doesn't.

Would like like to me link videos?

If I didn't care about Tali....well, maybe she takes a rockets to the face on the collector base because Grunt could prove himself leading squad 2.  Maybe she shoots herself on Rannock because Shep wouldn't save her people from their own genocidal madness simply because Shep loved her.

There are some paths where Tali gets a homeworld even Shepard does not care - that isn't equivalent to all paths.  And even where he loved her and stilll tool that path - would he have done it if he didn't care?  It's an awful lot of trouble.  Some Shepards take the hard route - but not all.  Can she tell the difference?

Yes, true true. I suppose I was just speaking within the framework of asserting that Shepard giving Tali a planet is proof of love, and therefore not cold (re:op). My point was that giving Tali a planet is not definitive proof of love, since you have the ability to give her a planet whether you are her LI or not.

Unschuld wrote...

That's like arguing that since the other
you in an alternate universe got a new car for graduating highschool,
but you didn't, something is wrong.

It's an alternate universe. Why should you care?

I hope the above clarified.

OK, look - is there any sequence of events where Shep would need to say it?

I actually find this kind of amusing.  Because that "Damnit, because I RESPECT you" carries a lot more weight then is being given credit.

He's a spectre, who has saved the galaxy.   She was a quarian girl on a pilgrimage.  Sometimes when he takes her to the citadel, the C-sec boys call her 'that thing'.   It's made totally clear that 99.99% of the galaxy would call her a suit rat and toss her away.

He didn't.. Do words make that much of a difference?

[antares_sublight]

Bfler wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

1. Shepard never says he loves her. She says it multiple times to him, but Shepard never does. In other romances, Shepard says it to the LI, but with Tali it's like he's uncomfortably avoiding it.

Shepard does say" I love you" but  in an indirect way during the final conversation. It is the inversion of their fomer conversations. In earlier stages of the game he asked her if everything is alright now she asks him. On Rannoch she said "I love you", he said "Keelah se'lai". On earth he responds to her question with "I love you" instead of his quote from Rannoch and Tali responds with   "Keelah se'lai".
The final sentence with "I know" also implies that they understand each other in a way that doesn't need words.

I agree these can be interpreted that way. But the "thanks" and walking away after the romance scene is cold on Shepard's part. 

[Dont Kaidan Me]

Unschuld wrote...
Well, not really. I see what you're getting at, but I still don't agree. Again, it's an alternate universe. Shepard's motivations for giving Tali her planet back depend on who is playing, and how they are playing the character. It could be for war assets, it could be for love, it could be just to be nice, or not at all (Tali---->cliff), or even a combination of some of these examples. What someone elses motivations are shouldn't matter to you, even if the game gives mostly the same result. The real result (the one in your mind), why you did it, is the one that matters.

I think we are making different points here, because I agree with what you are saying. I was just responding to the poster stating that sheerly giving Tali a planet was a declaration of love. Essentially you are just furthering my point in that aspect...that giving Tali her planet back is not dependent upon love. Yes?

@Phatose: I agree that "I love you", the words, need not be said. I was just pointing out that giving her a planet as an expression of love isn't a given. As stated above, Shepard could be giving her the planet back for multiple other reasons.

1. Yes, I agree "I love you" is not necessary
2. Planet does not equal an expression of romantic love

Modifié par Dont Kaidan Me, 06 mai 2012 - 07:37 .

[Unschuld]

Dont Kaidan Me wrote...
I think we are making different points here, because I agree with what you are saying. I was just responding to the poster stating that sheerly giving Tali a planet was a declaration of love. Essentially you are just furthering my point in that aspect...that giving Tali her planet back is not dependent upon love. Yes?

Technically, everyone is right... sort of. I'm saying it depends on love if that's your personal motivation for it. Then yes, giving the planet back itself is an act of love. For someone else, it may not depend on love, just another asset for war. Game mechanics (getting the planet regardless unless you die and get a 'Game Over" screen) don't factor into this. They don't matter. Shepard's motivations for getting the planet back depend on the player, because technically they are Shepard or at least they decide in their heads why he/she does things. Ergo, for some players giving the planet back is a declaration of Shepard's love for Tali.

Hopefully I've cleared this up rather than further convoluting things.

Modifié par Unschuld, 06 mai 2012 - 07:43 .

[Newnation]

I don't really see how you would think Shep not saying thanks when she saves him on the bridge is cold since they flirted with each other almost throughout that whole level. Falling bridge scene included.

I also thought him saying keelag se'lai was his own special way of saying he loved her.

[Deathstroke123]

antares_sublight wrote...

The relationship and dialogue with Tali in ME2 was really well done and enjoyable. In ME3, it's weak. It's already been posted that most of the relationships and romances are weakly done, at least in contrast to Liara and Ashley. But Shepard's interaction with Tali just seems especially cold to me. 

If romancing Tali:
1. Shepard never says he loves her. She says it multiple times to him, but Shepard never does. In other romances, Shepard says it to the LI, but with Tali it's like he's uncomfortably avoiding it.
2. In the Geth ship, Tali pulls him up from the falling elevator and he just says "I'm alright". Not even a "thanks"? I'm sure this is the same for any other character, but it was just wierd.
3. On Rannoch, she's talking about how great it's going to be to have a home, and when Shepard asks if the quarians will get used to living in one place and Tali responds about how they've been used to carrying their homes around with them, Shepard silently hands her a rock. Good job, Shep. Smooth. (Edit: I agree this one is on the edge, the sentiment behind it is certainly nice. It just seemed to fit the pattern)
2. Post-Rannoch, Shepard can't even bring himself to ask her to stay on the Normandy. "Because I respect you, dammit" is a horrible line, IMO. That's what people say when they just "want to be friends".
3. The romance scene is basically just a lazy fade-to-black. There's nothing there at all. This is not specific to Tali, though. However,
4. The post-romance pep-chat is really cold. In other romance scenes, Shepard tells the LI that the LI being there means everything, or that he'd not want to be anywhere else or something similarly touching. Shepard will say he loves the LI and kiss. But with Tali, he says he's not sure if there will be anything left, and when she says she reaches for him in times of trouble, he just says "Thanks" and walks away. WTH? Who is this guy?
5. In the final good-bye, the only redeeming part is Tali woefully saying she wants more time. But Shepard can't say anything of any value or sentiment even at this point. Just "I know". Seriously? What a cold ass.

Tali: I love you!
Shepard: Thanks, I'm alright.

Edit: To be clear, #s 4, and 5 are the ones I dislike the most. And of course, there are others that are incomparably underdeveloped. I'm in no way meaning to diminish any complaint about any other relationship with my observations. 

1. He doesn't really need to say it, honestly. It's implied and known between the 2 of them. This is reflected in the final chat when Shep says "Whatever happens..." and Tali responds "I know". The best kind of relationship is one where the love is evident enough that saying I love you isn't needed.

2. The guy almost fell down an elevator shaft to his death. He probably wasn't thinking too much about what to say in response. Besides, he knows she was worried, hence the 'I'm Alright' to reassure her.

3. The rock is symbolic. A piece of Rannoch that Tali can carry with her as she once had to carry her old home around. If you take this at face value, yes it seems dumb, but you're not supposed to. If you don't get the point of the gesture, you must be hopelessly unimaginative. 

4. Put yourself in his shoes. The girl he's with has been talking her whole life about how much she wants her home back, and now that she has it his thought process is 'Well ****, now she'll want to stay here instead of coming with me'. He's letting her know that he's willing to respect her choice to stay if she wants, even though it isn't what he wants. Again, how is this not a reflection of the love he feels?

5. If you expected a sex scene, then idk what kind of planet you live on. They've never shown here body, you think there'd be a sex scene where shep is just dry-humping her suit? It's the smae reason there was no garrus sex scene, it's interspecies and would've looked weird as ****. Besides, the relationship isn't built on sex and certainly not looks, so it's a moot point.

6. Shep just woke up from a nightmare and he's under tremendous pressure just before assaulting the base. You can't blame the guy for being cold, he's got borderline PTSD at this point. Tali didn't seem to mind, anyway.

7. See my point above. Not everything needs to be explained so hamhandedly. I actually liked that their last talk wasn't a generic "I love you, let's kiss" thing. The fact that they can just stare into each other's eyes and be assured of each others feelings speaks volumes more then any cliche.

[Daennikus]

I don't know if it was stated in the previous pages, but I do believe that the Shepard animations and acting was done for either gender. So, whether Tali is your LI or not, the non-romance scenes will disregard the relationship in consideration of FemShep. Since FemShep can't romance Tali...

The lack of gratitude for when you're saved from falling is remotely due to that "bi-gender acting" reason.

[Deathstroke123]

Newnation wrote...


I also thought him saying keelag se'lai was his own special way of saying he loved her.

This as well. It's shown in the last scene where they speak each others lines from the Rannoch scene. The two phrases are interchangable to them.

[illutian]

DTKT wrote...

It's pretty obvious that the Liara romance arc had the most attention. I guess the rest all suffered in quality.

Welcome to the entire game.

I'm not one of those fools (imo). That can take a good story (Book, TV Show, Movie, RPG, etc) that ends with the ****ty ending and still say it's a good story.

-all or nothing*.


*Exactly what Bioware will be getting from me from now on.

[Dont Kaidan Me]

Unschuld wrote...

Technically, everyone is right... sort of.

Hopefully I've cleared this up rather than further convoluting things.

Affirmative:)

[Deathstroke123]

Ivon wrote...

DTKT wrote...

It's pretty obvious that the Liara romance arc had the most attention. I guess the rest all suffered in quality.

Welcome to the entire game.

I'm not one of those fools (imo). That can take a good story (Book, TV Show, Movie, RPG, etc) that ends with the ****ty ending and still say it's a good story.

-all or nothing*.


*Exactly what Bioware will be getting from me from now on.

Oooh, watch out guys, we got a badass over here.

Seriously, look how edgy and against the system he is.

What a rebel, stating his opinion redundantly on a forum that largely agrees with him.

Moron.

btw, someone disagreeing with you on what makes a good story doesn't make them a fool. Yes, I know it's your opinion, but that doesn't make you any less of a ******. Get that ego checked out, kid.

[antares_sublight]

Deathstroke123 wrote...
1. He doesn't really need to say it, honestly. It's implied and known between the 2 of them. This is reflected in the final chat when Shep says "Whatever happens..." and Tali responds "I know". The best kind of relationship is one where the love is evident enough that saying I love you isn't needed.

2. The guy almost fell down an elevator shaft to his death. He probably wasn't thinking too much about what to say in response. Besides, he knows she was worried, hence the 'I'm Alright' to reassure her.

3. The rock is symbolic. A piece of Rannoch that Tali can carry with her as she once had to carry her old home around. If you take this at face value, yes it seems dumb, but you're not supposed to. If you don't get the point of the gesture, you must be hopelessly unimaginative. 

4. Put yourself in his shoes. The girl he's with has been talking her whole life about how much she wants her home back, and now that she has it his thought process is 'Well ****, now she'll want to stay here instead of coming with me'. He's letting her know that he's willing to respect her choice to stay if she wants, even though it isn't what he wants. Again, how is this not a reflection of the love he feels?

5. If you expected a sex scene, then idk what kind of planet you live on. They've never shown here body, you think there'd be a sex scene where shep is just dry-humping her suit? It's the smae reason there was no garrus sex scene, it's interspecies and would've looked weird as ****. Besides, the relationship isn't built on sex and certainly not looks, so it's a moot point.

6. Shep just woke up from a nightmare and he's under tremendous pressure just before assaulting the base. You can't blame the guy for being cold, he's got borderline PTSD at this point. Tali didn't seem to mind, anyway.

7. See my point above. Not everything needs to be explained so hamhandedly. I actually liked that their last talk wasn't a generic "I love you, let's kiss" thing. The fact that they can just stare into each other's eyes and be assured of each others feelings speaks volumes more then any cliche.

No need to be insulting or lecturing, you know. If you read my posts, I'm well aware and understand the context and subtlies in these conversations. I just felt like, in comparison with other LIs, Shepard's responses to Tali seem a little distant/cold.

1. I know it doesn't need to be said, but the fact is that she *does* say it many times, and he avoids it. Saying it 'doesn't need to be said' and can be implied is a different situation when one of the two is saying it throughout the game and the other never does. It's wierd, especially since Shep does say it to the other LIs. 
2. It's just a generic response everyone gets anyway.
3. I fully understand the meaning. Seemed to fit the pattern to me, and like I said, I wasn't sold on this being cold really.
4. She wants him to ask to ask her. He still didn't.
5. I'm not an idiot. 

Regarding my only real strong complaints, #6 & 7. For #6, Shep wakes up from the same dream with everyone, yet he manages to be really sweet with Ashley & Liara, but just says "thanks" and walks away from Tali. Regarding #7, the good-byes are pretty lame for everyone but with Tali it seemed especially weak. Saying just "I know" *is* cliche.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 06 mai 2012 - 08:20 .

[humes spork]

dafuq is this, Twilight? Get this "it's not mushy therefore it sucks" bull**** out of here.

[antares_sublight]

humes spork wrote...

dafuq is this, Twilight? Get this "it's not mushy therefore it sucks" bull**** out of here.

Brilliant, thanks. You totally nailed it.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 06 mai 2012 - 08:22 .

[Terrorize69]

Hihoshi101 wrote...

Tali doesn't even get a date... but yeah it is cold

No, she gets a homeworld instead

[N7Kopper]

antares_sublight wrote...
I agree these can be interpreted that way. But the "thanks" and walking away after the romance scene is cold on Shepard's part.

It's cold. Yes. But people do react that way when under such stress. Shepard saw Thessia fall, and also saw what happened to Horizon. Shepard may - potentially, have also sabotaged the genophage cure, been forced to kill Wrex or sic Bailey on him, or genocided the geth. (While the romance scene does play out if the quarians were the ones to die, it's due to a glitch - and I personally think the EC should incorporate that into a bone-chilling, gut wrenching nightmare myself - think remove the mask, see a rotting corpse underneath it, and all of a sudden seventeen million voices are damning you.)

Now, Shepard. Someone like Shepard can (in the vast majority of cases, you can always do a failure playthrough if you want) lie to or bluff allies and friends with the efficiency of a sociopath (even potentially being one) in order to save the day, help aforementioned friends and allies. With Ashley, Kaidan, Liara, whoever - you could potentially see the need to do this in Shepard's shoes, even though you don't actually need to. With Tali? You got her a godforsaken planet! And ended a 300 year long war that predates the Reaper invasion to boot! The reason she wasn't growing up spreading the desert grass. (And, coincedentally, the reason this galaxy stands a chance against the Reapers) You don't need to bluff her for the sake of your own mental well-being going into the final battle. There's trust there.

From a meta perspective, too - as she's the romance with the least plot armour, as compared to Liara, who's plot armour full stop is second only to that of Joker and EDI. And Joker has more, if you count the Destroy ending (or at least the Shepard dies variations, if you want to get analytical/hopeful about it) Equal to Garrus' actually, with the difference that Liara didn't hit the Omega-4 relay. You can leave her for dead on Haestrom. You can get her killed at the Collector Base or on approach. You can annihilate her people! If you're heartless.

She also cannot choose between her species and Shepard. Any other squadmate you betray attacks or defys you. She flings herself to her doom, as she can't bring herself to even attempt this, romance or not. That's the kind of trust the two have going/Tali has misplaced in Shepard.

humes spork wrote...

dafuq is this, Twilight? Get this "it's not mushy therefore it sucks" bull**** out of here.

It's equal parts mushy, sultry, realistic, potentially tragic, and badass.

Hihoshi101 wrote...

Tali doesn't even get a date... but yeah it is cold

She clearly didn't want one. Probably thought Rannoch was enough. (Although I wish Shep could ask for one to take a load off)

[Bocks]

I don't understand people who accept Bioware's extremely lazy "romance scene" at the end of the game for Garrus and Tali. The argument made in this thread is that "they're aliens!".

So? Liara is an alien and you get 360 degrees of boobs and ass. I didn't even really need a sex scene, just something that isn't an extremely shoddy copy-pasted format. They made something worse than the ME2 romance scene, and good god that's saying something. Besides, wouldn't a sex scene showing a naked Garrus or a naked Tali really bring home the point that, I don't know, they're ALIENS?

[BatmanPWNS]

Autodialogue Shepard is more stupider than the ME1/2 Shepard.

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Phatose wrote...

Cold?

Dude gives her her homeworld back.

Liara loses hers. Ashley loses hers. Kaidan loses his. Garrus loses his. Jack loses hers. Miranda loses hers. Jacob loses his and dumps yours ass.  Thane's was lost ages ago, and he dies.

The Shepard-Tali romance is one of unspoken things since ME1. You remember, right? Where she's a girl out to become a woman, who learns something unfortunate which should kill her. And you save her?

Shepard doesn't need to say "I love you". Men lie. Actions don't. He gives her a planet.

A planet.

An entire planet.

If in Tali's opinion, three words were more important then a planet - then Tali would've been wrong. But she's not. She doesn't need Shepard to say one word - what we do shows who we are, and what we feel. And what he feels - well, three words don't contain it.

This.
Give this man 1000+ war assets.

Modifié par OneWithTheAssassins, 06 mai 2012 - 09:51 .