204 réponses à ce sujet

[antares_sublight]

Unschuld wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
If you think I wrote this because it wasn't "cookie cutter", you're just willfully not understanding/trolling.

If you read my first post much earlier in the thread, you'd have seen that I agreed with several of your original points. The only reason you're replying to me right now is because I made a rebuttal to an attack you made earlier, where you made a disingenuous assumption about my personal character.

Fine, my apologies. 

[shadowreflexion]

Unschuld wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

 The thing that pissed me off with a save file that I had Tali as an LI was the fact that it was so touching in ME2. But in ME3, she's the one that was really written differently. She was somewhat ashamed of being with a human. The end of her loyalty mission she tells you she got better, she got you. In ME3, she doesn't want her people to know that she's with you in the slightest. It wasn't very adult writing. It was more like children in middle school liking each other when they're alone but disregarding each other around other people. Very childishly done. When she removed her mask on Rannoch, the sun in front of them, It would have been powerful if she would have embraced and kissed Shep while Raan and the Geth were there. That impact alone would have had more power than BW realized.

Maybe with Quarians, interspecies relationships are taboo. I'd think of comparing it to the stigma interracial couples faced in the past, rather than "childish" or "middleschool". also, as someone said before, it was also about maintaining a level of professionalism in front of the rest of the Admiralty. That last part about Rannoch though, I can agree with that. That would have been nice.

Yeah, to a degree I agree being multiracial myself. But this far in the future those stigmas are still relevant? And maintaining professionalsm would have been thrown out the door. After centuries in space, Shep has done something that their entire fleet couldn't do. I think that alone would have warranted deeper public affection and understanding from all who witnessed it. It would have been sweeter if Raan herself would have said, "Go kiss your man Tali. it's alright." Keelah Se' Lai!

[Kanaris]

Well Tali does say her Father would hate Shepard mainly hinting at the fact it's because he is Human not Quarian so I'd say those interracial disputes are alive and healthy in the 22nd century

Modifié par Kanaris, 06 mai 2012 - 06:31 .

[Xandurpein]

Unschuld wrote...

Maybe with Quarians, interspecies relationships are taboo. I'd think of comparing it to the stigma interracial couples faced in the past, rather than "childish" or "middleschool". also, as someone said before, it was also about maintaining a level of professionalism in front of the rest of the Admiralty. That last part about Rannoch though, I can agree with that. That would have been nice.

Don't forget that Tali is an Admiral then. She's not just Shepard's girlfriend, she's a high ranking politician with responsibility towards her people. Anything she does with Shepard will be scrutinized and twisted into politics. I think that's why Shepard won't ask her to come with him. He respects that she has an important political job now. 

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[shodiswe]

Considering the extraordinary circumstances and what's hapend to the crew I can understand if peopel are having problems expressing their emotions... they are botteling it up... And people are less likely to show their affections in public areas and around other people.... like when you run into Garrus and Tali on the gundeck...

[comrade gando]

honestly that's how it should have been on rannoch, THAT'S where they should have revealed her face. I can't fathom why they didn't. It's like you have a car to get to work, but you decide to walk instead. no reason, just walk instead of take the car. makes no sense.

[Unschuld]

antares_sublight wrote...
Fine, my apologies. 

Accepted.

My intentions were never to be combative, but I've tried explaining my stance on this issue multiple times elsewhere, and I guess I'm starting to come off as abrasive. So I apologize for that. I'm not specifically trying to tell anyone "you're wrong", I'm just trying to give additional perspective that some seem to ignore. Does Shepard act coldly in some scenes? Yes, yes he does. But given the situation he's in it's understandable when you think about it. It doesn't mean he's a cold-hearted jerk all the time who's using Tali for sex (er, unless someone has that as their headcanon I suppose), he's just got a lot of things on his mind. Also, regarding the infamous three words, I thought Keelah se'lai was an excellent substitution that was essentially meant to mean the same thing, without saying it directly. I didn't see it as avoidance.

Comparing the Tali romance, and the majority of the others besides the VS and Liara, yes it feels a bit like we got the short end. I try to ignore that, because none of the "top three" are my Shepard's LI's, so I couldn't care less what their dialogue is like. Even that though is a gross simplification of the issue. Another factor to consider is the writers themselves. From my understanding, Patrick Weekes wrote both Tali and Garrus' characters for ME3. I don't remember who wrote Liara, but I'm assuming it was Mac Walters. If you're looking for a reason why there's so many ILU's in the other romances but not Tali's, this is probably one of the bigger reasons; different writers. In that respect, I think Patrick Weekes wrote the most interesting and unique ones out of all of them.

[shadowreflexion]

Xandurpein wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Maybe with Quarians, interspecies relationships are taboo. I'd think of comparing it to the stigma interracial couples faced in the past, rather than "childish" or "middleschool". also, as someone said before, it was also about maintaining a level of professionalism in front of the rest of the Admiralty. That last part about Rannoch though, I can agree with that. That would have been nice.

Don't forget that Tali is an Admiral then. She's not just Shepard's girlfriend, she's a high ranking politician with responsibility towards her people. Anything she does with Shepard will be scrutinized and twisted into politics. I think that's why Shepard won't ask her to come with him. He respects that she has an important political job now. 

Not for the sake of arguing, but this is an observation. In ME2 when her people were willing to exile her and then because of you, they don't doubt her anymore, that showed that they were accepting of you as an individual, not just a human. I hold to my opinion that this was more about an adolescent way to handle their relationship. On Rannoch when Shep tells Legion to stop, over the radio, Tali says I love you and Shep says Keelah Se' Lai. I believe that the other Quarians had to have heard that. It's strange that this is taboo or the excuse is given that her rank won't allow public displays of affection or emotion when the Quarian people are generally an emotional race as explained through the conversation with Javik and Tali. I mean if we look at DA:O, a relationship with Morrigan was considered taboo because she was a shapeshifter and a witch of the wilds. But, it was generally accepted by your team.

My point is that when dealing with overwhelming emotion, one will show it regardless of rank or what race they are. Tense fighting, stressfull environment, and they succeeded. Realistaically, Tali would have shown emotion towards Shep other than just a hug. And she also has her own mind. In ME2 when Shep asks her what she thinks and not what the admirals think, she says that if they don't like it, then they can go to hell. I believe that the end of the Rannoch mission was a missed opportunity that could have expressed more without the use of dialogue.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Unschuld wrote...

Another factor to consider is the writers themselves. From my understanding, Patrick Weekes wrote both Tali and Garrus' characters for ME3. I don't remember who wrote Liara, but I'm assuming it was Mac Walters.

John Dombrow wrote Garrus, and Sylvf wrote Liara.

AFAIK, Walters did not write any romances.

[Unschuld]

comrade gando wrote...

honestly that's how it should have been on rannoch, THAT'S where they should have revealed her face. I can't fathom why they didn't. It's like you have a car to get to work, but you decide to walk instead. no reason, just walk instead of take the car. makes no sense.

Yeah, I was a bit let down when that happened, since I was expecting it to be the most pivotal moment to do it. I think whoever was in charge of that "needed more time" and didn't get it. Fingers crossed for a second chance with the Extended Cut, but not holding my breath.

[Unschuld]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Another factor to consider is the writers themselves. From my understanding, Patrick Weekes wrote both Tali and Garrus' characters for ME3. I don't remember who wrote Liara, but I'm assuming it was Mac Walters.

John Dombrow wrote Garrus, and Sylvf wrote Liara.

AFAIK, Walters did not write any romances.

I stand corrected then. Well, they were still written by different people, and it shows.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Unschuld wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Another factor to consider is the writers themselves. From my understanding, Patrick Weekes wrote both Tali and Garrus' characters for ME3. I don't remember who wrote Liara, but I'm assuming it was Mac Walters.

John Dombrow wrote Garrus, and Sylvf wrote Liara.

AFAIK, Walters did not write any romances.

I stand corrected then. Well, they were still written by different people, and it shows.

Indeed. Actually, to the best of my knowledge, Tali's is also the only romance which has managed to keep the same writer throughout multiple games and not switch between them. Which I also think shows.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 06 mai 2012 - 06:57 .

[TX-Toast]

comrade gando wrote...

honestly that's how it should have been on rannoch, THAT'S where they should have revealed her face. I can't fathom why they didn't. It's like you have a car to get to work, but you decide to walk instead. no reason, just walk instead of take the car. makes no sense.

Artistic integrity 

[TX-Toast]

shadowreflexion wrote...

Not for the sake of arguing, but this is an observation. In ME2 when her people were willing to exile her and then because of you, they don't doubt her anymore, that showed that they were accepting of you as an individual, not just a human. I hold to my opinion that this was more about an adolescent way to handle their relationship. On Rannoch when Shep tells Legion to stop, over the radio, Tali says I love you and Shep says Keelah Se' Lai. I believe that the other Quarians had to have heard that. It's strange that this is taboo or the excuse is given that her rank won't allow public displays of affection or emotion when the Quarian people are generally an emotional race as explained through the conversation with Javik and Tali. I mean if we look at DA:O, a relationship with Morrigan was considered taboo because she was a shapeshifter and a witch of the wilds. But, it was generally accepted by your team.

My point is that when dealing with overwhelming emotion, one will show it regardless of rank or what race they are. Tense fighting, stressfull environment, and they succeeded. Realistaically, Tali would have shown emotion towards Shep other than just a hug. And she also has her own mind. In ME2 when Shep asks her what she thinks and not what the admirals think, she says that if they don't like it, then they can go to hell. I believe that the end of the Rannoch mission was a missed opportunity that could have expressed more without the use of dialogue.
                                     

Good post.

In my playthrough Tali was exiled but she still wanted to keep things quiet in front of Raan. So yeah, that was out of character given the fact that the admirals were just using her to advance their political agendas. And they're just using her now because of her Geth expertise.

Modifié par TX-Toast, 06 mai 2012 - 07:40 .

[comrade gando]

well I wouldn't say shepard is "cold" to tali. hmm just that he's not exactly the lovey dovey type, considering his um "profession". He kills people for a living, would kind of expect him to be the jaded type of lover. Just my opinion tho, especially since shepard can be role-played.

[TX-Toast]

The days of role-play Shep are over.

In ME1 and 2 my canon Shep was very sweet when it came to Tali and a dick to everyone else.

Modifié par TX-Toast, 06 mai 2012 - 08:22 .

[nivodeus]

comrade gando wrote...

honestly that's how it should have been on rannoch, THAT'S where they should have revealed her face. I can't fathom why they didn't. It's like you have a car to get to work, but you decide to walk instead. no reason, just walk instead of take the car. makes no sense.

You, my brother, should be the one writing those scene. I ve been thinking the same thing, the Rannoch scene of Geth-Quarian peace is one of those great scenes in ME3, for me, it beats the ending. Hell, even the genophage cure and Mordin's death beats that, but we are not here to talk about the ending.

Following Mass Effect till ME3, we see all those conflict between Geth and Quarian, and in ME2 we see how Tali starts emphatizing the Geth, and it all lead to the peace between both sides.

I still lol-ed at the invisible rock, i thought it was glitch on my comp only. However, i think it has a really good sentimental value to it. Not to mention Tali's suicide scene. Imagine romancing someone and at the end you choose a robot over her? and moreover destroying her entire home fleet, it is believable that she does that.

They should show her face when she decided to open her mask, and thats the moment she turned into shepard, smile, with a little bit tear of happiness and we all finally get to see Tali's face after all these years. (Not some photoshoped picture from the extranet.....)

As for Shepard coldness to Tali, i find its weird, although he never really said he lover her and all, he does flirt with her and i think thats kinda cute. There is a lot of chemistr between Tali and Shepard in the romance, and its not sexual, but its thoughtfull, i think.

[Reorte]

I see in a way where the OP is coming from but I don't entirely agree. Tali is clearly having a bit of a hard time in ME3, not coping well with responsibility. Having someone solid and not being massively emotional whilst still being very close is probably good for her. And the rock gesture is worth more than any number of words (as was the photo if you think about it, just a pity it was handled so badly).

[antares_sublight]

comrade gando wrote...

well I wouldn't say shepard is "cold" to tali. hmm just that he's not exactly the lovey dovey type, considering his um "profession". He kills people for a living, would kind of expect him to be the jaded type of lover. Just my opinion tho, especially since shepard can be role-played.

In a vacuum, I'd agree. Yet, part of my point was the contrast with Ashley & Liara where Shepard is far more expressive and open with them.

[robarcool]

Faded-Myth wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Faded-Myth wrote...

Tali: "Shepard. I give to you land from my planet to start a family, my support throughout the hardships you will face, and my undying love."
Shepard: "I give you..."
(Shepard looks around, picks up a rock.)
Shepard: "...this rock. Which I found on the land you gave me."
Tali: "But...it's not even a rock."
Shepard: "It's made of air. It's an air rock. It's rare."

Invisible rocks have many uses.

You can hit invisible people with them.

Once, this invisible burglar broke into my invisible house to steal my invisible valuables, so I hit him with my invisible rock.

Or hit real people with them and they won't notice.

[Kanaris]

antares_sublight wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

well I wouldn't say shepard is "cold" to tali. hmm just that he's not exactly the lovey dovey type, considering his um "profession". He kills people for a living, would kind of expect him to be the jaded type of lover. Just my opinion tho, especially since shepard can be role-played.

In a vacuum, I'd agree. Yet, part of my point was the contrast with Ashley & Liara where Shepard is far more expressive and open with them.

Probably cause those two were possible Li's from the first game where as Tali was only available in the second game.

[Baihu1983]

Both come off cold to one another at times but then i feel the Tali LI was totally wasted in 3.

[Draining Dragon]

I romanced Tali... and it didn't come across as cold at all.

[TX-Toast]

Baihu1983 wrote...

Both come off cold to one another at times but then i feel the Tali LI was totally wasted in 3.

Why do you feel that way?

[Shajar]

I think saying Keelah se'lai is much better and means a lot for Tali. Tali knows Shep loves her so its enough.
I like this romance very much, did once Ashley and that was not deep love at all i think 

Only problem was that sex scene, 7 seconds and black screen? Really? But thats BW fault, not Tali's

Modifié par Shajar, 06 mai 2012 - 09:08 .