510 réponses à ce sujet

[Kreid]

I am still wondering why people think you're "surrendering" to the Catalyst, it doesn't even control the Crucible at all it is just telling you what you can do with it.

[The Angry One]

Karolus_V wrote...

Uhm, its hard to get all this.Thats like redoing the entire final chapter. Dont be mistaken, I would love to see Priority Earth improved vastly, Harbinger having a large role( and with that I am not talking stompiong him), and be able to actually argue with the starbrat, oh, and the Normandy scene...WTF is doing in my ending?.  In reality , for me, Normandy scene away, and some more Harbinger,shep arguing with the starbrat, plus, some epilogue, even if only text, will suffice(at bare minimum). Anyway I have...hope bioware is taking this seriously, and somehow they will deliver.

Yes, hence the "out of the question" disclaimer. I have no illusions that they'll touch Priority: Earth, which is a shame as it's a complete mess.

[Zix13]

Karolus_V wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Karolus_V wrote...

And now the question is, what you think will sufice as a fix for the ending?

A complete overhaul of Priority: Earth with the inclusion of the cut content, less stupid tactics, better gameplay flow and the inclusion of the Ilos conduit somehow instead of the Reaper idiot teleporter, for starters.

But since that's sadly out of the question, the bare minimum would be a retcon of the Catalyst to not be the leader of the Reapers (very basic and fundamental requirement), changing destroy to not harm the Geth/EDI at max EMS, the total removal and replacement of the Normandy scene/have the Normandy crash on Earth, Shepard being able to unite with their LI at max EMS along with saving the Citadel and the mass relays.

Very ideally, the total removal of synthesis. But for some reason some people actually like imposing eugenics on the galaxy so I guess this has to stay, realistically.

If they do this, great. But I'm expecting they won't.

Uhm, its hard to get all this.Thats like redoing the entire final chapter. Dont be mistaken, I would love to see Priority Earth improved vastly, Harbinger having a large role( and with that I am not talking stompiong him), and be able to actually argue with the starbrat, oh, and the Normandy scene...WTF is doing in my ending?.  In reality , for me, Normandy scene away, and some more Harbinger,shep arguing with the starbrat, plus, some epilogue, even if only text, will suffice(at bare minimum). Anyway I have...hope bioware is taking this seriously, and somehow they will deliver.

You mean delivering what they promised pre-release? God-forbid. 

[Taboo]

I'm making a topic on this tomorrow.

Dropping of thematic material and dissecting a narrative....

[Karolus_V]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Karolus_V wrote...

And now the question is, what you think will sufice as a fix for the ending?

A complete overhaul of Priority: Earth with the inclusion of the cut content, less stupid tactics, better gameplay flow and the inclusion of the Ilos conduit somehow instead of the Reaper idiot teleporter, for starters.

But since that's sadly out of the question, the bare minimum would be a retcon of the Catalyst to not be the leader of the Reapers (very basic and fundamental requirement), changing destroy to not harm the Geth/EDI at max EMS (Shepard's survival in the breath scene highly suggests this), the total removal and replacement of the Normandy scene/have the Normandy crash on Earth (an epilogue highly suggests they get off the uncharted world and I don't believe it is impossible to add scenes clarifying the Normandy's movements), Shepard being able to unite with their LI at max EMS (an epilogue, coupled with Shepard breathing, would highly suggest this is likely unless BW makes a highly cynical mistake) along with saving the Citadel and the mass relays (we don't know their fate, BW has sent mixed messages, might not be as bad as it seems).

Very ideally, the total removal of synthesis. But for some reason some people actually like imposing eugenics on the galaxy so I guess this has to stay, realistically. (I don't like the option but it should remain.)

If they do this, great. But I'm expecting they won't.

A lot of what you're asking for is your own personal narrative ideas implemented. I would venture to say a lot of what you ask isn't shared by a majority of fans and much of the rest could be addressed by the EC. (see above)

I asked him what will suffice for him to be satisfied with the extended cut, so yes, I asked his opinon(or narrative ideas).

[The Angry One]

Creid-X wrote...

I am still wondering why people think you're "surrendering" to the Catalyst, it doesn't even control the Crucible at all it is just telling you what you can do with it.

It is dictating terms, telling you what to do and when to do it.
The Crucible's functions, in one way or another, follow it's philosophy. It may not favour the Reapers precisely - aside from synthesis - but they all follow his world view (synthetics will always kill organics).
Even in destroy it gets to condescend to you and holds the Geth/EDI hostage. Moreover it outright WANTS you to choose synthesis and carry out the Reaper agenda to it's final conclusion.

Moreover, I've stated again and again, the only logical origin for the Crucible is either the Catalyst itself, or it's creators.

[webhead921]

The Angry One wrote...

You will always earn the ire of people if you talk down to them.

This is true.  Maybe you should listen to your own words.

[kyg_20X6]

The Angry One wrote...

Hey, I was asked what I would consider a good EC, and that was my answer.
Also, many of the things I outlined are very basic. What is the point of the Catalyst being the leader of the Reapers and hence the worst war criminal of all time? Tell me.

Which is fine, but you can't expect BW to implement everyone's own personal dreams. The reason we are getting what we're getting is because so much of the fanbase was unified in their grievances.

I was more pissed with The Catalyst as a symbol for what I hated about the ending (confusion, lack of closure) rather than his actual character. He is flawed. He has come to realisation that synthetics will wipe out organic life. He has created an insane solution to this problem. It's horrific. Mad/evil people don't often see themselves that way and think what they're doing is for the best. He tries to convince you of this. You have 3 options for dealing with the Reapers:

Cerberus Path. Gain control of the Reapers.
Catalyst/Reaper Path. Merge synthetics/organics into one form, pleasing the Reapers.
Galactic Alliance Path. Do what everyone following you signed up to do, destroy the Reapers.

I think the Catalyst is interesting in that he did manage to convince many people to follow his choice. Many people followed the Cerberus path as well. For me, my actions with Quarians/Geth/EDI, etc, and his suspicious evaluation of the other options (besides synthesis) allowed me to stick to my guns and destroy the Reapers.

I don't think he's a terrible character. Just what he came to symbolize for us, in the endings.

[Vlta]

Kunari801 wrote...

Vlta wrote...

Angry One the hate flows through you... >_>

Ok Ok, stop beating up on her.  

Ah trust me I'm not ragging on her, wouldn't be hard to, but I for the most part agree with her views on the ending... it's just  that she's a very hostile person on these forums when it comes to arguing her points. Or maybe just very hardlined would be a better description idk.

[Kreid]

The Angry One wrote...
It is dictating terms, telling you what to do and when to do it.

That's one way to see it, the other is simply accepting it is explaining the functions of the Crucible to you.
 

The Crucible's functions, in one way or another, follow it's philosophy. It may not favour the Reapers precisely - aside from synthesis - but they all follow his world view (synthetics will always kill organics).
Even in destroy it gets to condescend to you and holds the Geth/EDI hostage. Moreover it outright WANTS you to choose synthesis and carry out the Reaper agenda to it's final conclusion.

It doesn't actually benefit from it nor do the Reapers directly, and it doesn't hold anyone hostage because it doesn't have control on the effect of the Crucible's energy.

Vendetta tells us that the Catalyst manages the dark energy and directs the relays, there's no indication whatsoever that the Catalys can:
A) Control the Crucible.
Fine tune the effects of the beam (in fact it is decided by your own EMS)
The very fact that your options are limited by your EMS are an indicative that the Catalyst is just explaining what firing the Crucible will do and has no control over it, the Geth and EDI die because of their own nature not because the Catalyst is "aiming" at them.

Moreover, I've stated again and again, the only logical origin for the Crucible is either the Catalyst itself, or it's creators.

That's specualtion, there might be a number of reasons it is not, and as a matter of fact it isn't if we take the information we have at face value.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying we simply don't have the info to prove or disprove it.

Modifié par Creid-X, 07 mai 2012 - 01:44 .

[shepskisaac]

The Angry One wrote...
Moreover it outright WANTS you to choose synthesis and carry out the Reaper agenda to it's final conclusion.

So? How does it stop you from making your own choice?

[Taboo]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Moreover it outright WANTS you to choose synthesis and carry out the Reaper agenda to it's final conclusion.

So? How does it stop you from making your own choice?

This.

[Ring1]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Moreover it outright WANTS you to choose synthesis and carry out the Reaper agenda to it's final conclusion.

So? How does it stop you from making your own choice?

I'm going to take a guess that maybe Angry means you aren't really making a choice since the outcome and repercussions are not stated. But I only speak for myself.

[The Angry One]

Creid-X wrote...

That's one way to see it, the other is simply accepting it is explaining the functions of the Crucible to you.

This is impossible, given what the Catalyst is.
 

It doesn't actually benefit it or the Reapers directly,

Synthesis does. It remakes all life into the Reapers' image. Their ultimate goal.

and it doesn't hold anyone hostage because it doesn't have control on the effevt of the Crucible's energy.

It (or it's creators) designed the effect in the first place.
Moreover it is forcing you to make a choice, rather than relent and call off the Reapers. If the Crucible has truly "changed" it, why can it not be convinced to do this?

Vendetta tells us that the Catalyst manages the dark energy and directs the relays, there's no indication whatsoever that the Catalys can:
A) Control the Crucible.
Fine tune the eefects of the beam (in fact it is decided by your own EMS)
The very fact that your options are limited by your EMS are an indicative that the Catalyst is just explaining what firing the Crucible will do and has no control over it, the geth and EDI die because of their own nature not because the Catalyst is "aiming2 at them.

See above.

That's specualtion, there might be a number of reasons it is not, and as a matter of fact it isn't if we take the information we have at face value.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying we simply don't have the info to prove or disprove it.

Name one other logical origin for the Crucible, considering that whoever designed it HAD to have known about the Citadel and about the Catalyst.

[The Angry One]

Ring1 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Moreover it outright WANTS you to choose synthesis and carry out the Reaper agenda to it's final conclusion.

So? How does it stop you from making your own choice?

I'm going to take a guess that maybe Angry means you aren't really making a choice since the outcome and repercussions are not stated. But I only speak for myself.

Yes, there is that.
My only point with that statement is that the Catalyst clearly favours a choice, not that this favour alone prevents choice.

webhead921 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You will always earn the ire of people if you talk down to them.

This is true.  Maybe you should listen to your own words.

I only talk down to those who flame or condescend to me, dear.

Modifié par The Angry One, 07 mai 2012 - 01:48 .

[XXIceColdXX]

Anyone know who the voice actor for the boy is?

Ill cringe if i see him recording for the EC.

[Taboo]

^ All those can be explained in the Extended Cut.

And when Gamble said they can rework the Starchild's dialogue......

[JSwisha]

No information about the Extended Cut has made me looked forward to it. I will still play it just in case it somehow, someway improves the ending to make me actually care about the series again. However, I have no expectations, and there's definitely no excitement or anticipation for it on my behalf.

Honestly, just thinking about having to play through the ending again to watch additional scenes or dialogue makes me sick to my stomach. Have I already made my mind up about the EC? Maybe, but if it's good enough to redeem the original mess they created then I will praise BioWare as if they were gods. It'll take a miracle for that to happen though, and no news they've provided has given me any confidence that this will be the case.

I mean, if someone cooked up a steak dinner that you paid $60-80 for and it turned out to be dog **** then wouldn't you be reluctant to eat that person's food again, even if it was free the next time around? Can you really judge the free stuff on its own merit without reliving that horrible memory from before?

That's just my feelings towards the EC...basically I want it to be great and redeem the series, but I find that will be almost impossible to achieve given the circumstances and what little we know that's been confirmed so far.

[The Angry One]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Which is fine, but you can't expect BW to implement everyone's own personal dreams. The reason we are getting what we're getting is because so much of the fanbase was unified in their grievances.

I was more pissed with The Catalyst as a symbol for what I hated about the ending (confusion, lack of closure) rather than his actual character. He is flawed. He has come to realisation that synthetics will wipe out organic life. He has created an insane solution to this problem. It's horrific. Mad/evil people don't often see themselves that way and think what they're doing is for the best. He tries to convince you of this. You have 3 options for dealing with the Reapers:

Cerberus Path. Gain control of the Reapers.
Catalyst/Reaper Path. Merge synthetics/organics into one form, pleasing the Reapers.
Galactic Alliance Path. Do what everyone following you signed up to do, destroy the Reapers.

I think the Catalyst is interesting in that he did manage to convince many people to follow his choice. Many people followed the Cerberus path as well. For me, my actions with Quarians/Geth/EDI, etc, and his suspicious evaluation of the other options (besides synthesis) allowed me to stick to my guns and destroy the Reapers.

I don't think he's a terrible character. Just what he came to symbolize for us, in the endings.

None of this requires the Catalyst to be the leader of the Reapers, it is unrepentant and condescending to you on top of that.
I never said the character was unsalvagable, just that it being Space Hitler is completely unecesarry. It can be connected to the Reapers, but it does not need to "control" them. It diminishes Shepard for listening to it, it diminishes the Catalyst by automatically making it the enemy and it diminishes the Reapers by making them the indoctrinated puppets of a brand new character from the last 10 minutes.

[Kreid]

The Angry One wrote...
This is impossible, given what the Catalyst is.

it is impossible for it to show you how the Crucible works because he is...what? an A.I.? The Reaper leader? I'm afraid you're gonna have to be more sepecific here.

Synthesis does. It remakes all life into the Reapers' image. Their ultimate goal.

That is not correct, the Reaper's goal is to stop the organic/synthetic conflict before it goes out of hand, it's never stated that their primary goal is to merge synthetics with organics, they obviously think it is good but that is besides the point, specially having account that synthesis is very different from the Reaperization proccess..

It (or it's creators) designed the effect in the first place.

Yes, which given the effect of the destroy option, doesn't sound probably that it was the Catalyst's or it's master's creation, yet it matches the idea of thousands of organic civilizations hating on A.I.'s.

Moreover it is forcing you to make a choice, rather than relent and call off the Reapers. If the Crucible has truly "changed" it, why can it not be convinced to do this?

Why would he? Your're basically overriding his control with the Crucible, that doesn't mean it likes it, it is obviously happy with it's solution.

Name one other logical origin for the Crucible, considering that whoever designed it HAD to have known about the Citadel and about the Catalyst.

Can you prove no one in 20.000 cycles could get info on teh Catalyst? Or that the information didn't reach or cycle incomplte? See, it's a dead end.

[kyg_20X6]

The Angry One wrote...

None of this requires the Catalyst to be the leader of the Reapers, it is unrepentant and condescending to you on top of that.
I never said the character was unsalvagable, just that it being Space Hitler is completely unecesarry. It can be connected to the Reapers, but it does not need to "control" them. It diminishes Shepard for listening to it, it diminishes the Catalyst by automatically making it the enemy and it diminishes the Reapers by making them the indoctrinated puppets of a brand new character from the last 10 minutes.

Yeah, disagree with all of that. I see the Catalyst as a crazy **** who came up with an insane solution (the creation of the Reapers to harvest organic life) as a response to perceived problem (organics being wiped out by synthetics). Its actions do lead (certain people) to see it as a sort of "Space Hitler". For others, contrary to what you say, they don't see the Catalyst as "the enemy" and they choose synthesis. I don't think the Reapers are "diminished" to being "indoctrinated puppets". Even with Sovereign and Harbinger they were pretty one-dimensional. They were created to serve a purpose (like the Geth, originally). The fact that Reapers like Sovereign and Harbinger seem to exhibit maybe the starting points of individual identities, could be quite ironic for the Catalyst. Also, he may not actually *be* the "Catalyst". The Citadel (or Shepard) may be. But since he takes on forms from your memory to sway you (the boy), he'd know that you're looking for "the Catalyst" and identifying himself as such would furhter sway you.

Actually, though, I do agree that introducing the character in the last 10 minutes was poor form.

As for the Crucible, it was built by many species (likely the original aims lost to the first creators). Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they say that the Catalyst was added to the plans later on? Probably the first series of civilizations were just trying to create some massive bomb to wipe out the Reapers. Then one species came up with the idea of using the Citadel to direct the blast around the galaxy. TIM, in his examination of the plans found he could harness the energy to gain control of the Reapers. Starchild, in his examination of the Crucible found he could harness the energy to enact a final solution to the problem he saw. The fact that he can't actually carry it out himself, and needs Shepard to physically interact with the Crucible, speaks to it not being of his creation.

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 07 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[The Angry One]

Creid-X wrote...

it is impossible for it to show you how the Crucible works because he is...what? an A.I.? The Reaper leader? I'm afraid you're gonna have to be more sepecific here.

The leader of the Reapers. It is not an impartial information giver by definition.

That is not correct, the Reaper's goal is to stop the organic/synthetic conflict before it goes out of hand, it's never stated that their primary goal is to merge synthetics with organics, they obviously think it is good but that is besides the point, specially having account that synthesis is very different from the Reaperization proccess..

The Catalyst's goal is to stop the supposed conflict, which it believes synthesis will do.
The Reapers believe their form to be superior, and that all who become it are ascended.
Synthesis may be different from Reaperisation in method, but it is in principle the same thing, fushing organic and synthetic into a new life form. This is Reaperisation only on some kind of molecular scale (let's ignore the crushingly bad science of that).

Yes, which given the effect of the destroy option, doesn't sound probably that it was the Catalyst's or it's master's creation, yet it matches the idea of thousands of organic civilizations hating on A.I.'s.

It destroys all synthetics. This is more the Catalyst's philosophy than organic species.
In the cycles, synthetics are often victims of the Reapers as well, such as the zha'til. Destroy as it currently functions feels more like a creator-designed failsafe than an anti-Reaper device speficially.

Why would he? Your're basically overriding his control with the Crucible, that doesn't mean it likes it, it is obviously happy with it's solution.

It claims that the Crucible has "changed" it and it's solution is no longer valid.
Why must we be rigidly held to these new solutions? It is either lying, or Shepard is stupid for not even trying to make it see reason.

Can you prove no one in 20.000 cycles could get info on teh Catalyst? Or that the information didn't reach or cycle incomplte? See, it's a dead end.

Yes. I can prove it with the fact that this info is not in the Crucible files.
It is ludicrous to believe that these plans would survive every single cycle but nothing else. Literally, all you would need is a picture of the Citadel among the Crucible files.

[kyg_20X6]

The Angry One wrote...

It destroys all synthetics. This is more the Catalyst's philosophy than organic species.
In the cycles, synthetics are often victims of the Reapers as well, such as the zha'til. Destroy as it currently functions feels more like a creator-designed failsafe than an anti-Reaper device speficially.

He also states that Shepard will die, because they are part synthetic. And Shepard in fact DOES die on all but the highest versions of 'destroy', perhaps hinting that a higher EMS means a better made Crucible that DOESN'T kill all synthetics but instead solely targets the Reapers. You can see this as him trying to sell you off 'destroy', knowing your history with synthetics/own personal situation, or that BW decided against adding varients to the dialogue. Certainly, who would choose anything but 'destroy' at 5000+ EMS if the Catalyst said: "sure, you can destroy all the Reapers if you want, and survive, but how about dying and following TIM or dying and making everyone half synthetic like I've always wanted?!"

"The Catalyst" is a manipulative ****.

[Daedalus1773]

Let the turd polishing commence.

[shepskisaac]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, there is that.
My only point with that statement is that the Catalyst clearly favours a choice, not that this favour alone prevents choice.

And TIM favours saving the Collector Base at the end of ME2, Wrex favours killing the Rachni Queen. I really don't get where's the problem here, obviously the Catalyst is biased