206 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeowyn]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I also believe the Nords will have it better not worse for leaving the Empire. They gain nothing for being in a weak Empire and frankly the Empire needs Skyrim more than the other way around. The Septim Empire was strong, the Mede Empire isn't. It is known.

Every civil war, every rebellion even when they were pulled off successfully made life worse for everyone in the nation for years to come.

That is a fact ( which I know very well considering what happened in Eastern Europe in general after Comunism fell. For years it was chaos and life was really bad ) and how is Ulfric going to make Skyrim stronger? By not allowing the resources of the nation to be used by the Empire? Well what about trade, do you think Ulfric will be able to pull of trade relations with the Empire even if he wants to? If trade stops with the Empire, and it would in the event of a stormcloak victory, then the economy of Skyrim goes down the dump.

Also while the worship of Talos was official banned, Hadvar's uncle if you help him points out that no one was really doing anything about the Talos worship until Ulfric started his war, then they clamped down on it. The Thalmor wanted the Civil War, hell they made sure Ulfric would start it.

There are cases of  civil wars, rebelions, revolutions turning out well in the end because of a leader or leaders who ware politically briliant and visionary. Ulfric's neither. He is very conversative and tradionalist.

You're seriously comparing the fall of the Soviet Union to the Skyrim rebellion?

Additionally, the Thalmor wanted the rebellion to last so that both sides could be weakened. What they didn't want was a Stormcloak victory.

[RedArmyShogun]

Addai67 wrote...

Titus Mede can kiss my pasty Nord rear. ALL HAIL KING ULFRIC

There is no strategic advantage staying in an "empire" (if you can call it that any longer) that has corrupt, crippled leadership. Cyrodiil is just scrambling to save itself and using its former provinces as bargaining chips to buy off the Thalmor for a little more time. Red Ring and Hammerfell show that when you stand ground, the Thalmor lose. The appeasement game the empire is trying to play has been disastrous and though some of the legionaries can see this, the emperor obviously can't. Humanity has a better chance with an alliance of independent Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and hopefully Morrowind (what's left of it). If Cyrodiil gets its act together and renounces claims on Skyrim, they could ally together as well, as free nations. Meanwhile the Nords will have been able to prepare for war without the serious disadvantage and morale hit of having your leadership collude with the enemy and spying on your every move.

edit- Nobody who knows TES lore would argue that Talos is not divine.  That's a non-starter.

I still disagree on that. Even after the Thalmor are, that is IF they are beaten, the two parties would have a bit of mistrust and the nords frankly, are ****s to anyone thats not a nord. "Milk Drinkers" >> But in genaral you are asured of conflict And Hammerfell technically didn't not win. The drove the Thalmor out, its a simular situation to many island or water only approach enemies. If you don't have a navy big enough you can have the largest army in the world and STILL not do crap about it.

The problem with this is that  Hammerfell is a desert kingdom with few resources, too much innerconflict, and a small population. All the Elves need to do is wait a few years build up a navy, and with enough ability to move MASSIVE manpower, well, I doubt the redguards will make it to round three. Plus multinational units with varrying commands cannot function well together. Unless united under a single command and leadership. Plus as I said it only breeds a new conflict there are countless times of this happening in our world and thiers.

Fighting a Defensive war you Will NEVER win. You may break the enemies back, you may run them out. But they can always return and make war turning it into a battle of attrition. In which the force with better numbers and equipment will ALWAYS win. The Multi state party while capable of war is not able to forge a peace. More so when they are atagonistic to one another. They may win one war only to end up in five more. Plus the way the Empire was constructed each part depends on the other. With one section of it taken out vital resources are lost, it is much like the USSR, when it fell many of the Soviet republics sufferd, had to turn elsewhere, or have ended up back in Russia's grip. Plus in all likelyhood, the events in skyrim are just what the Thalmor want.

The Stormcloaks want a home for the nords and the nords only. People like these will have great internal problems come into conflict with the others in the Region, and will fight on defensive, or ethical purification ideals only. So while the rest of the world burns, they'll sit back and drink mead. Untill the Thalmor land ships on the coast, and march through every mountain pass. Skyrim is ino position to defend its self. But could launch strike operations given the rest of the Empire being intact provides a meat sheild.

As I said a group of nationalist racist arn't about to come to the aid of anyone.

As to the corruption. True enough but if you listen to Imperial Commanders, while Mead has lost his nerve, and will be about to die, either of old age or your hand, the Imperial high command clearly has it in mind to kick the thalmor down once they reforge the Empire. And I suspect many in the government and general populance would support this. All thrones are built by the legions. And the Legions can always crown new Emperors. Thats part of why at least in my game I run all of these groups and killed the Emperor, and preferablly I would like to purge more of the corrupt to reforge the Empire.

[DarkDragon777]

monkeycamoran wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Notice how I only used Alduin and Shor as examples.

Of course, I noticed. So, you can prove your point, except that gods do exist in both with different names. So, that makes your point moot.

Then your statement that all gods in each pantheon are the same isn't  correct either unless you're actually implying that Alduin is Akatosh and Talos is Shor even though that's clearly not true.

[DarkDragon777]

Aeowyn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I also believe the Nords will have it better not worse for leaving the Empire. They gain nothing for being in a weak Empire and frankly the Empire needs Skyrim more than the other way around. The Septim Empire was strong, the Mede Empire isn't. It is known.

Every civil war, every rebellion even when they were pulled off successfully made life worse for everyone in the nation for years to come.

That is a fact ( which I know very well considering what happened in Eastern Europe in general after Comunism fell. For years it was chaos and life was really bad ) and how is Ulfric going to make Skyrim stronger? By not allowing the resources of the nation to be used by the Empire? Well what about trade, do you think Ulfric will be able to pull of trade relations with the Empire even if he wants to? If trade stops with the Empire, and it would in the event of a stormcloak victory, then the economy of Skyrim goes down the dump.

Also while the worship of Talos was official banned, Hadvar's uncle if you help him points out that no one was really doing anything about the Talos worship until Ulfric started his war, then they clamped down on it. The Thalmor wanted the Civil War, hell they made sure Ulfric would start it.

There are cases of  civil wars, rebelions, revolutions turning out well in the end because of a leader or leaders who ware politically briliant and visionary. Ulfric's neither. He is very conversative and tradionalist.

You're seriously comparing the fall of the Soviet Union to the Skyrim rebellion?

Additionally, the Thalmor wanted the rebellion to last so that both sides could be weakened. What they didn't want was a Stormcloak victory.

They also didn't want an Imperial victory.

[Sigma Tauri]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Notice how I only used Alduin and Shor as examples.

Of course, I noticed. So, you can prove your point, except that gods do exist in both with different names. So, that makes your point moot.

Then your statement that all gods in each pantheon are the same isn't  correct either unless you're actually implying that Alduin is Akatosh and Talos is Shor even though that's clearly not true.

I didn't say they were always all the same. As I said, I pointed to Varieties of Faith.

You made a claim saying that the Imperial pantheon and Nordic pantheon are not the same gods with different names. If we assume that was true, it should hold up to scrutiny. You used those two gods as examples to your point. Except that there are more gods than either two. Alduin and Akatosh can make a stand to your claim. Talos being Shor is a lot murkier, unfortunately there are books like Shezarr and the Divines that challenges your claim. Then, there are the other gods like Jhunal, Mara, Stuhn, Kyne, Dibella, Shor to Shezarr that outright devestates it. So, yeah your claim is wrong and therefore any (reasonable) person should be forced to accept an alternative.

Besides, I'm not really here to convince you. There are more than one instance in TES literature that states Talos and his place among the Divines. So, you're just wrong that Talos isn't a god, and I got enough adherence in this thread to back me up.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 06 mai 2012 - 06:31 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You're seriously comparing the fall of the Soviet Union to the Skyrim rebellion?

Additionally, the Thalmor wanted the rebellion to last so that both sides could be weakened. What they didn't want was a Stormcloak victory.

I'm pointing out that in every single case in history ( and I do mean every single last one of them ) of a civil war, rebellion and revolution life for the people who lived in the countries where these things happened in was a hell lot more difficult for a few years then it was before the civil war/rebellion/revolution occurred. I mention the fall of the Soviet Union since I know exactly what happened in the years that followed from first hand experience, but it's not the same situation.

If I wanted to compare it to anything, I'd compare it to the 30 year war.

Yes the Thalmor didn't want a Stormcloak victory, same goes for an Imperial Victory since it was in their best interest for a long civil war that would drain the Empire's resources. Do you have anything to prove that from the Thalmor's perspective a Stormcloak Victory would be worse for them then an Imperial victory?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 06:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

Thalmor, the empire is collapsing and the Stormcloaks don't stand a chance alone.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I'm pointing out that in every single case in history ( and I do mean every single last one of them ) of a civil war, rebellion and revolution life for the people who lived in the countries where these things happened in was a hell lot more difficult for a few years then it was before the civil war/rebellion/revolution occurred. I mention the fall of the Soviet Union since I know exactly what happened in the years that followed from first hand experience, but it's not the same situation.

The American Revolution disproves your rule.  Rebellions need not end in chaos.  They often do because there is a fight for leadership and civil rule breaks down, but if you have a strong leader already present and a country that has a good culture of rule of law already in place, it need not.  Besides, empires are no cure for civil wars.  Only need to look at the TES interregnum or the Roman civil wars for proof of that.  The empire is crumbling and the Skyrim civil war is a symptom, not a cause.

If I wanted to compare it to anything, I'd compare it to the 30 year war.

I don't see the comparison, other than the cultural comparison of German princes going up against a southern power.  That's a loose correlation at best.

Yes the Thalmor didn't want a Stormcloak victory, same goes for an Imperial Victory since it was in their best interest for a long civil war that would drain the Empire's resources. Do you have anything to prove that from the Thalmor's perspective a Stormcloak Victory would be worse for them then an Imperial victory?

Well as you said yourself, what they want is the war to drag out, not one side or the other to win.  If Skyrim is independent, they lose their easy access to gather intelligence on it, they won't be able to eradicate the Talos cult in its strongest foothold (their number one strategic goal- if they don't take down Talos, they lose), and there is a rallying point for humanity besides the weakened empire that is playing footsie with the Thalmor.

[chunkyman]

The Empire, crush the rebel scum!

[Costin_Razvan]

The American Revolution disproves your rule.

Does it? It took years for the America government to settle the economic issues that arose as the war ended. They were deeply in debt and it took them years to get out of it.

The empire is crumbling and the Skyrim civil war is a symptom, not a cause. 

So instead of seeking to strengthen the Empire you decide to blow it up. Need I remind you what happened after the Western Roman Empire collapsed? The Eastern Roman Empire survived for many more years after that despite the civil wars and flourished for a time but the fall of the west...well it brought chaos to the entirity of western Europe.

I never claimed the Empire was perfect, it's not.

 
I don't see the comparison, other than the cultural comparison of German princes going up against a southern power.  That's a loose correlation at best. 

The 30 year war started because of a weak ruler ( Rudolf II ) who greatly weakened his realm. Just like the Civil war in Skyrim started because of the Emperor being a weak ruler. The thing is that the 30 year war was a devastating thing for Germany and only when Bismarck united them into one country again did they trully rise back to power.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 08:43 .

[LTD]

"Phew, narrowly escaped beheading by those goddamned Imperials. Time to join their ranks!"

[Inquisitor Recon]

"I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces! I fight for my people, impoverished to pay the debts of an empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rules themselves! I fight so that all of the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight because I must."

Epic speech won the loyalty of my first character.

[RedArmyShogun]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The American Revolution disproves your rule.

Does it? It took years for the America government to settle the economic issues that arose as the war ended. They were deeply in debt and it took them years to get out of it.

The empire is crumbling and the Skyrim civil war is a symptom, not a cause. 

So instead of seeking to strengthen the Empire you decide to blow it up. Need I remind you what happened after the Western Roman Empire collapsed? The Eastern Roman Empire survived for many more years after that despite the civil wars and flourished for a time but the fall of the west...well it brought chaos to the entirity of western Europe.

I never claimed the Empire was perfect, it's not.

 
I don't see the comparison, other than the cultural comparison of German princes going up against a southern power.  That's a loose correlation at best. 

The 30 year war started because of a weak ruler ( Rudolf II ) who greatly weakened his realm. Just like the Civil war in Skyrim started because of the Emperor being a weak ruler. The thing is that the 30 year war was a devastating thing for Germany and only when Bismarck united them into one country again did they trully rise back to power.

On that top part it took YEARS to work the economics out and trade, heck even today there is serrious debate on states versus feds. And in the case of long lasting effects one only needs to look at the South and the state it was left in after the civilwar. It still in regions hasn't recoverd.

And in Reguards to the 2nd part, it should be noted that many of those troubles though hundreds of years ago its only in the 1950's has it finally somewhat stabilized. And on that final Issue it should be noted that those series of events with that "one German Prince" led to several wars, and two World Wars, and by extention all of the problems still on going in the balkians. Stabilty is far better than Any Democratic alliances.

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 06 mai 2012 - 08:48 .

[DarkDragon777]

monkeycamoran wrote...


Alduin and Akatosh can make a stand to your claim.

Talos being Shor is a lot murkier

1. Don't even try and fool yourself into thinking that Akatosh is Alduin. Seriously.

2. Shor was around long before Tiber Septim was even born. His legend originated in Atmora. They couldn't even possibly be the same person. As well as this, Shor resides in Sovngarde, which is reserved for Nords only. Tiber Septim had more Imperial blood in him than Nordic.


Oh yeah, and Shor is actually a god and Tiber Septim isn't. /trollface
       

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The American Revolution disproves your rule.

Does it? It took years for the America government to settle the economic issues that arose as the war ended. They were deeply in debt and it took them years to get out of it.

Sure, war is expensive, but the society did not collapse- it thrived.

So instead of seeking to strengthen the Empire you decide to blow it up. Need I remind you what happened after the Western Roman Empire collapsed? The Eastern Roman Empire survived for many more years after that despite the civil wars and flourished for a time but the fall of the west...well it brought chaos to the entirity of western Europe.

The idea that Europe descended into a Dark Ages of chaos and despair is a canard of  19th century history that has long been disproven.  No serious historian still holds to it.

What I see is that the empire is already gone, no matter what you choose to do in the Skyrim civil war.  The signs were already pointing to that in previous TES games such as Wulf, an avatar of Tiber Septim himself, saying as much in Morrowind.

The 30 year war started because of a weak ruler ( Rudolf II ) who greatly weakened his realm. Just like the Civil war in Skyrim started because of the Emperor being a weak ruler. The thing is that the 30 year war was a devastating thing for Germany and only when Bismarck united them into one country again did they trully rise back to power.

It's simplistic to put the Thirty Years War down to any one cause or one man.  Germany was devastated because it was the battlefield for many nations fighting it out.  Cyrodiil has seen a lot of fighting, but so has Hammerfell.  The thing is that Cyrodiil capitulating is not going to spare them, it just puts off the inevitable and gives the Thalmor enormous strategic advantages.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2012 - 08:51 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Right after? No. You can however thank your leaders for fixing the issues years down the line, but life was chaotic and harsh for years to come. That was my point, and yes life did improve eventually. As it did for Eastern Europe.

The idea that Europe descended into a Dark Ages of chaos and despair is a canard of 19th century history that has long been disproven. No serious historian still holds to it.

There was chaos, there was a lot of suffering a lot of wars in that time. Oh I do not believe it was as bad as some claim it to be, my point is that it was worse then before the fall. Which it was.

What I see is that the empire is already gone, no matter what you choose to do in the Skyrim civil war. The signs were already pointing to that in previous TES games such as Wulf, an avatar of Tiber Septim himself, saying as much in Morrowind.

Oh? What are these signs then?

It's simplistic to put the Thirty Years War down to any one cause or one man. Germany was devastated because it was the battlefield for many nations fighting it out. Cyrodiil has seen a lot of fighting, but so has Hammerfell. The thing is that Cyrodiil capitulating is not going to spare them, it just puts off the inevitable and gives the Thalmor enormous strategic advantages.

As it goes in regards to any civil war. Rudolf II played his part in causing it however, you believe Cyrodill has no chance, explain to me why I should agree? What are the Thalmor not stretched thin at the moment?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[DarkDragon777]

Addai67 wrote...

If Skyrim is independent, they lose their easy access to gather intelligence on it, they won't be able to eradicate the Talos cult in its strongest foothold (their number one strategic goal- if they don't take down Talos, they lose), and there is a rallying point for humanity besides the weakened empire that is playing footsie with the Thalmor.

Your plan would be good (Actually, not really), if the Thalmor couldn't just simply take any army and wipe out a lone province. Why the hell would they need to gather intel on a small province they could easily eradicate with their military? It's not like Skyrim would actually have a respectable defense without the Legion, especially against the Aldmeri Dominion, for god sake.

[Costin_Razvan]

Because people believe that the Nords could do the same thing the Redguards did, nevermind the devastation of Hammerfell.

I agree on the principle that the Thalmor would not be able to attack Skyrim directly...seeing as the Imperial Armies are massing on the borders of Cyrodill, but really if the Empire breaks apart then the Thalmor will have an easier time winning.

 
A crumbling Empire Controlled by the Thalmor, an indecisive King and an Empire Stretched too thin.  

The Thalmor don't control the Empire. The Emperor can be killed and the Thalmor are stretched just as thinly as the Imperial Legions.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 09:02 .

[DarkDragon777]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

If my assumptions are correct, most of your points are moot because what it comes down to is:

Side with:

A crumbling Empire Controlled by the Thalmor, an indecisive King and an Empire Stretched too thin.

Or

A Rebellion against the corrupt Empire, with a King that treats his people fairly (Nords) Now I understand some of you will say: But he's a bigot, well maybe, not certainly and the point is, you join this Rebellion, you help it survive it inspires others to do the same, so what you get in the end is either an Empire that Can't control everyone or A stash of Kings from each great nation that can inspire their Entire Kingdoms to fight the Thalmor instead of a crumbling, corrupt imperial force weak in numbers. The choice is obvious to me.

1. Ulfric treats his people fairly?

2. People like the Stormcloaks and are inspired by them? Not many.

3. Unless Ulfric turns into Luke Skywalker I doubt that'll be happening.

[Costin_Razvan]

Based on what information are they infiltrated in the Imperial Court or Legions? They have agents in the land, as they would have REGARDLESS of the treaty since the Empire lost the Blades who were the Imperial Agents.

 
 I never said Ulfric would lead them, no-ONE would it would be a culmination of all the races.  

And who would lead the army? No one as you say it, there would be several armies with different leaders versus a single army.

In terms of the military a well structured clear chain of command and a supreme commander so to speak is one of the keys to victory. The Empire has this army as do the Thalmor. The alliance you are talking about wouldn't.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 09:08 .