206 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Aeowyn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Seriously Costin, Hammerfell wasn't completely devastated. Only the south suffered the Thalmor and they pushed back. Heck the Redguards call that a victory.

Only half the country, that part that the Thalmor at one point completely conquered? Yeah that's not big deal.

Did the Redguards destroy the Elven armies? Did they conquer elven lands? No. That's what I call a phyrric victory.

Addai: I'd argue what Tullius says, who actually hates the Thalmor himself, is very much relevant especially since he is one the Emperor's best generals.

They were invaded during the Great War, which, oh let's say a few other lands were as well. Once Titus Mede signed the treaty that ceded a portion of the south of Hammerfell to the Thalmor the Redguards left the Empire and continued to fight the Thalmor eventually pushing them back.

A victory doesn't have to mean conquering land, and since the Thalmor have now withdrawn from Hammerfell completely, I'd assume they destroyed some Thalmor armies.

That's why it's a phyrric victory. They drove them out sure, but at a great cost for their own nation. This is what would happen to Cyrodill and Skyrim in the end in my mind if Ulfric wins. 

 
A general in a society that has civilian rule of the military.  So unless he's banking on a legion coup of the emperor and Elder Council- he could well be, for all we know- then his opinion is limited. 

And your opinion on what the Empire would do is more relevant based on what?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[Han Shot First]

Imperials.

Ulfric is nothing more than a pawn of the Thalmor.

[TobiTobsen]

Aeowyn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Seriously Costin, Hammerfell wasn't completely devastated. Only the south suffered the Thalmor and they pushed back. Heck the Redguards call that a victory.

Only half the country, that part that the Thalmor at one point completely conquered? Yeah that's not big deal.

Did the Redguards destroy the Elven armies? Did they conquer elven lands? No. That's what I call a phyrric victory.

Addai: I'd argue what Tullius says, who actually hates the Thalmor himself, is very much relevant especially since he is one the Emperor's best generals.

They were invaded during the Great War, which, oh let's say a few other lands were as well. Once Titus Mede signed the treaty that ceded a portion of the south of Hammerfell to the Thalmor the Redguards left the Empire and continued to fight the Thalmor eventually pushing them back.

A victory doesn't have to mean conquering land, and since the Thalmor have now withdrawn from Hammerfell completely, I'd assume they destroyed some Thalmor armies.

The Thalmor pulled their army out of Hammerfell after their main army got destroyed by the Legion in the Imperial City, not because the Redguard where inflicting such heavy losses on them.
They simply lost their distraction and decided to regroup.

[DarkDragon777]

Han Shot First wrote...

Imperials.

Ulfric is nothing more than a pawn of the Thalmor.

^
The fact that the Thalmor call Ulfric a valuable asset should tell you all you need to know.

[RedArmyShogun]

Actully people of the Thread I'm sorry for wasting your time and lying.... I'm not the King of England.

I am the Exualted Ruler of the Shape Shifting Lizardmen, The Royal Arch Duke of the Ice People of Antartica, and the Prime Minster of the Enclave of the Bear.

I am sorry for having lied to you all. Pretending to be the King of England is also a lowly position and one that is illegal to pretend to be.

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 06 mai 2012 - 11:12 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Actully people of the Thread I'm sorry for wasting your time and lying.... I'm not the King of England.

I am the Exualted Ruller of the Shape Shifting Lizardmen, The Royal Arch Duke of the Ice People of Antartica, and the Prime Minstery of the Enclave of the Bear.

I am sorry for having lied to you all.

you didnt lie, actually  i have find proof my lord you are indeed.the real majesty of england

Gooood goood one more title for me



U Mad England?

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 06 mai 2012 - 11:09 .

[saMoorai]

I always side with the Empire.

[xsdob]

I play an argonian so **** the racist stormcloaks. Also I'm against anyone who'd want me to kill the jarl of whiterun.

I choose neither side, they can both go die in a ditch together.

Modifié par xsdob, 06 mai 2012 - 11:20 .

[DarkDragon777]

Remember Stormcloaks, the Empire isn't bi-polar. They're bi-WINNING.

[Sicarious 57]

stormcloaks.....stormcloaks ye ye ye!

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's why it's a phyrric victory. They drove them out sure, but at a great cost for their own nation. This is what would happen to Cyrodill and Skyrim in the end in my mind if Ulfric wins.

Their southern region was devastated, but they still won.  The Thalmor made a complete withdrawal and haven't been back since.  Most importantly, it's a symbolic victory for humanity.

And your opinion on what the Empire would do is more relevant based on what?

I'm only saying that we can't know for sure that Tullius even knows what he's talking about.  There's no other corroborating evidence in the game that the empire is about to launch an offensive against the Thalmor- to the contrary.  They're fighting a costly war in Skyrim to maintain their sham concordat.

[Addai]

TobiTobsen wrote...
The Thalmor pulled their army out of Hammerfell after their main army got destroyed by the Legion in the Imperial City, not because the Redguard where inflicting such heavy losses on them.
They simply lost their distraction and decided to regroup.

The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai happened five years after the signing of the White Gold Concordat.  So yes, the Thalmor's armies had been depleted by fighting in Cyrodiil, but they had enough force to fight for five years.  Their losses earlier were also partly fighting redguard legions.

There's no doubt about it, the redguard are b/a's.  I'd want them on my side in any fight and the empire was stupid to push them out.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2012 - 11:30 .

[The Minority]

Independent Skyrim is pretty saying "Haha, we now have no allies, come get us Thalmor!"
Then the elves invade then annex Skyrim into the dominion.

[Costin_Razvan]

Their southern region was devastated, but they still won. The Thalmor made a complete withdrawal and haven't been back since. Most importantly, it's a symbolic victory for humanity.

Assuming the humans care at all about humanity. I see Nords caring more about being Nords, the Imperials caring more about being Imperials etc.

They're fighting a costly war in Skyrim to maintain their sham concordat.

They are fighting with only one undermanned legion to maintain a peace while they build up their military forces. It's in line with what Tullius says and it's evidence enough.

Also the Thalmor themselves refer to the Great War as the First War with the Empire, meaning they expect the fighting to restart.

Their losses earlier were also partly fighting redguard legions.

And the Imperials did nothing to fight the Thalmor, is that what you are saying? Oh yeah sure heap praise on the Redguards and Nords for winning, but don't forget those that didn't abandon the Empire.

Also it wasn't five years after signing the treaty. it was five years total of war that left south Hammerfell devasted.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2012 - 11:41 .

[Bad King]

The Minority wrote...

Independent Skyrim is pretty saying "Haha, we now have no allies, come get us Thalmor!"
Then the elves invade then annex Skyrim into the dominion.

And then Ulfric Stormcloak is captured for the fourth time and tortured by Elenwen for the second time.

www.youtube.com/watch

[lil yonce]

Sided with the Empire. Felt compelled to do so for every pro-Imperial reason listed in this thread.

@Tigerblood and MilkShakes; Nice avatar.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

They are fighting with only one undermanned legion to maintain a peace while they build up their military forces. It's in line with what Tullius says and it's evidence enough.

Well, we'll see.  For the record I do hope Cyrodiil gets its act together.

And the Imperials did nothing to fight the Thalmor, is that what you are saying? Oh yeah sure heap praise on the Redguards and Nords for winning, but don't forget those that didn't abandon the Empire.

What about the empire's abandonment of its provinces?  Loyalty goes two ways.  They should have recognized the outcome of Ulfric's duel, let Skyrim secede as they let Hammerfell go, so at least a few human nations aren't obligated to keep their ruinous peace.

Also it wasn't five years after signing the treaty. it was five years total of war that left south Hammerfell devasted.

Signing of the WGC- 4E 175, signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai- 4E 180.  It's in The Great War.

[Costin_Razvan]

What about the empire's abandonment of its provinces? Loyalty goes two ways. They should have recognized the outcome of Ulfric's duel, let Skyrim secede as they let Hammerfell go, so at least a few human nations aren't obligated to keep their ruinous peace.

Half the Jarls don't recognize it. Why should the Empire.

 
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Signing of the WGC- 4E 175, signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai- 4E 180.  ].[/color] 

A fairly interesting read, and to the point actually; There would have been no victory for the Redguards had half the Imperial Armies not died before the Imperial City smashing the Thalmor armies to pieces. 

Titus Mede seemed like a shrewd general and leader. He did what he could with an Empire that had only recently been in Chaos.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 mai 2012 - 12:40 .

[HoldTheLine]

Hi, I've never posted here, but I wanted to answer the OP's question and say that I sided with the Imperials simply because...well, sorry Ulfric, there's only room for one crazy person running around killing people with the Thuum...me... If the option had been there to marry Ulfric, I would've sided with him and become queen, but sadly Ulfric is not available

[goofyomnivore]

I'm going to assassinate the Emperor, crush the Stormcloak rebellion and defeat Aldiun -- then use my status as dragonborn to make a coup for the throne. I think I'd be a good compromise and both sides would have just cause to unify behind me.

Make reforms, prepare for war with Thalmor, etc.

Modifié par strive, 07 mai 2012 - 01:10 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Half the Jarls don't recognize it. Why should the Empire.

For the same reasons they let the rest of their provinces go.  In Skyrim's case, mostly for pragmatic reasons.  Embittering anti-imperial feeling at a time when you need the Nords to be fighting your common enemy is stupid.  So is forcing Skyrim to come under the false peace when they could be free to rally against the Thalmor without the strategic disadvantages of the WGC.

They needed a Decianus, who would look to the big picture and realize that it's better to cut the provinces loose.  Mede, sadly, is not the man.

A fairly interesting read, and to the point actually; There would have been no victory for the Redguards had half the Imperial Armies not died before the Imperial City smashing the Thalmor armies to pieces.

And the imperial legion would not have defeated the Thalmor at Red Ring without the Nords and redguards.  But Mede lost the will to fight and snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.