175 réponses à ce sujet

[Bocks]

chemiclord wrote...

Your "choices" meant just as much jack **** in the Suicide Mission as they did in Priority: Earth.

At the end of both, your "choices" were narrowed into two (or three) options that were there completely regardless of what you did before.

If you hated Priority: Earth because it took your choices away, you should be equally enraged by the Suicide Mission for doing THE EXACT SAME THING.

That said, I liked the Suicide Mission far better because it actually... made something resembling sense and had an epic, culminating feel to it. You understood why the Collector Base was important, and why you had to go there.

Making Earth the focus point of ME3 felt arbitrary. Why did the Reapers care to make it the "center" of their forces? Could have just as easily been Palaven, or Thessia, or Rannoch, or hell some uninhabitable world off in the middle of nowhere.

Except you couldn't be more wrong. All the time you spent gathering resources for Shield Enhancements and Armor and the Thanix cannon? They ALL paid off. All the time you spent making sure your squad was awake and ready for the final mission? It makes sure your squad can survive the Suicide Mission! Chose to launch the Suicide Mission immediately after the crew was kidnapped? You can save the whole crew, then!

But it doesn't end there. You have to make decisions whilst inside the base that can determine who lives and dies. Their lives depend on you and how good of a commander you are. The final decision is pretty much just a Red/Blue ending picker, but it doesn't matter. What matters at the time is that you accomplished the mission and you felt good doing it because EVERYTHING YOU DID IN MASS EFFECT 2 AFFECTED IT.

And I tell you, snuggling with your LI after you accomplish that is one of the most satisfying moments in gaming.

[nupfi]

Suicide Mission; hands down!

[chemiclord]

Bocks wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Your "choices" meant just as much jack **** in the Suicide Mission as they did in Priority: Earth.

At the end of both, your "choices" were narrowed into two (or three) options that were there completely regardless of what you did before.

If you hated Priority: Earth because it took your choices away, you should be equally enraged by the Suicide Mission for doing THE EXACT SAME THING.

That said, I liked the Suicide Mission far better because it actually... made something resembling sense and had an epic, culminating feel to it. You understood why the Collector Base was important, and why you had to go there.

Making Earth the focus point of ME3 felt arbitrary. Why did the Reapers care to make it the "center" of their forces? Could have just as easily been Palaven, or Thessia, or Rannoch, or hell some uninhabitable world off in the middle of nowhere.

Except you couldn't be more wrong. All the time you spent gathering resources for Shield Enhancements and Armor and the Thanix cannon? They ALL paid off.

I don't see how.  The end really doesn't care that your vent runner lived or died.  It doesn't care who you chose to hold the line, or who your barrier biotic was.  It doesn't give one tenth of one **** who was loyal, the effort you made to put together your ship.  The side quests you do... the Suicide Mission doesn't care.

No matter what you do.  You get two choices.  Red or Blue.  None of your choices impact the option you are given.

I am not saying that Priority: Earth was great.  It's not.  I am challenging the logic fans use to hate it.  If you hated the end of ME3 because it rendered your choices irrelevant, than you should hate ME2 and ME1 for the same reason.

The end of ME3 sucks because it was terrible, nothing more, nothing less.

[Kanaris]

Actually your talking about the choice to keep or blow up the base that is a small side choice that only adds to your over all paragon or renegade it's moot your choices as you progress through the SM determines the ending of the game

Modifié par Kanaris, 06 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[Khayness]

Suicide Mission.

Both ME1 and 2 really nailed the point of no return feeling, once you landed on Ilos and entered the Omega-4 relay, there was no way you could put the game on halt until you've seen it through.

Earth was pretty dull compared to the previous two games, the true "this is it" part never came, after you got to the Conduit charge, it goes downhill. Next time I'm really bored I'll count the time how much does it take after the beam hit you to get to Anderson. Limping ain't fun. Climbing the Citadel Tower in mag-boots and fighting on the Collector platforms IS fun.

[Someone With Mass]

Why the Citadel wasn't the focus of the battle, since it can control the mass relay network, is beyond me.

Oh wait. Humans are a bunch of special twits. That's why.

[chemiclord]

Kanaris wrote...

Actually your talking about the choice to keep or blow up the base that is a small side choice that only adds to your over all paragon or renegade it's moot your choices as you progress through the SM determines the ending of the game

No.  It's the entire culmination of the game.  Your entire purpose of ME2 was to stop the Collectors.  All your decisions, all the sidequests, all the loyalty missions... none of them matter to the final culminating decision.

Red or Blue.  Pick your flavor of ending that really isn't all that terribly different from the other.  Depending on what you did, people live or die, just like they do at the end of Priority: Earth.

That's been Bioware's narrative model through three games.  I just find it silly that it's only terrible and unacceptable NOW.

The Suicide Mission is executed infinitely better on that score, and THAT is why people like it so much more.  If Priority: Earth had been done equally as well, I do believe we would not have NEARLY the backlash we're seeing now.

If you want to be mad because Bioware didn't deliver on the game promised to its fans; I have no beef with you.  You would be absolutely right to be upset.

If you want to hate the ending because it's terribly executed, the Catalyst makes very little sense in its arguments, and it's a disjointed mess that makes you wonder WTF just happened; again, I have to beef with you.  You'd be absolutely right.  Priority: Earth as a whole is poorly done.  It's awful.

But to rage about the narrative structure that was so awesome in the previous two games makes little sense to me.  It's exactly what fans had no problem with before.

[Kanaris]

I think your over thinking the importance of that single choice if all your squad mates die in SM your choice there means nothing cause you die in the end.

[chemiclord]

Kanaris wrote...

I think your over thinking the importance of that single choice if all your squad mates die in SM your choice there means nothing cause you die in the end.

Yes, I am oversimplifying the decision.

Just like the haters oversimplify the decision of ME3.

If you actually think about it, the same elements are there in both endings.  You get your (extremely limited) choice, and depending on how you performed through the game, the epilogue shows the results of that.

Where ME3 fails is in the execution.  The War Assets are too trivilized, for example.  Where the Suicide Mission had elements that directly impact certain parts of the game (for example, Thanix Upgrades save Jack or Tali) the War Assets are kinda clumped into one amalgamated number.  It seems that Bioware wanted the specific elements to have a more specific impact (judging from some of the cut dialogue), but that's neither here nor there.

As well, the three different options DO have distinct logical differences, just like the decision to destroy or simply purge the Collector Base does, but it doesn't feel that way because (again) the execution is horrible.  They just slapped different colors onto the same cutscene, and tried to let the player decide, "Eh, it's different."

It's considerably different to see Samara gut through the final seconds of her barrier and then survive or die, then to see faceless mooks cheering or falling over dead along with the Reaper in front of them.  One really impacts you because you had seen this character grow throughout the game.  The other you barely notice.

I maintain the problem with ME3's ending was its execution rather than its narrative structure.  I suppose we can agree to disagree, because the greater point remains; the ending to ME3 was fairly terrible.

Modifié par chemiclord, 06 mai 2012 - 09:18 .

[Alex Arterius]

Wow, been through the whole thread. Not a single person voting on Priority: Earth, everyone is in unison on the SM being superior

I think that speaks volumes to Bioware tbh!! Sort it outttttt.

[chemiclord]

Alex Arterius wrote...

Wow, been through the whole thread. Not a single person voting on Priority: Earth, everyone is in unison on the SM being superior

I think that speaks volumes to Bioware tbh!! Sort it outttttt.

It was a pretty loaded question to begin with.  Anyone who didn't expect the response it got is an idiot.

Now, the question is, how does Bioware "sort it outtttttt?"  Because the fans can't agree.  I swear I've seen 100 different posters give 200 opinions on how it should be fixed.  No matter what happens, it's not going to be acceptable/be enough for a fairly significant group of people.

[Xellith]

I forwarded this thread to Jessica Merizan but I honestly doubt that they will look at it. I dont think they care about Mass Effect anymore. ME3's current condition speaks volumes.

[vv238email]

The Angry One wrote...

Suicide Mission
Pros: Epic finale, your choices matter, squadmates have roles, feeling of accomplishment.
Cons: Baby Arnold, some choices feel arbitrary.

Priority Earth
Pros: Erm...
Cons: Dull and boring, nothing you have done matters or changes things, characters behave like idiots, the driving premise is idiotic, the most memorable moments are unintentionally comedic ("STEEVE!!" "Auuuurreegghhhh!!!"), you feel like you've done nothing of value.

Shepard: STEEEVE!

Cortez: I'm alright.

Shepard: You sure?

[Alex Arterius]

chemiclord wrote...

Alex Arterius wrote...

Wow, been through the whole thread. Not a single person voting on Priority: Earth, everyone is in unison on the SM being superior

I think that speaks volumes to Bioware tbh!! Sort it outttttt.

It was a pretty loaded question to begin with.  Anyone who didn't expect the response it got is an idiot.

Now, the question is, how does Bioware "sort it outtttttt?"  Because the fans can't agree.  I swear I've seen 100 different posters give 200 opinions on how it should be fixed.  No matter what happens, it's not going to be acceptable/be enough for a fairly significant group of people.

I dunno man. This thread has a lot of different contributers in it and a lot of the points we've said are the same accorss the board. I think they should take this with broad strokes beacause there are big things missing that we can all agree on.

[Kanaris]

Give me some way out of this no win scenario ending they stuck me with and I'll be happy and I know my $80 wasn't wasted.

They need to prove to me that they can salvage this train wreck of an ending if they expect me to invest my hard earned money on any more of their games in the future here is hopping EC does that

[delphonic]

Anyone who doesn't say "Suicide Mission" is insane

The Priority Earth finale / ending to ME3 was one of the most disappointing chapters in gaming history. By contrast, the Suicide Mission was arguably gaming's finest hour.

Modifié par delphonic, 06 mai 2012 - 09:43 .

[Alex Arterius]

Kanaris wrote...

Give me some way out of this no win scenario ending they stuck me with and I'll be happy and I know my $80 wasn't wasted.

They need to prove to me that they can salvage this train wreck of an ending if they expect me to invest my hard earned money on any more of their games in the future here is hopping EC does that

Yeah! I don't see how adding in a option to allow us to win is ruining anyones vision.. it's just more variety... the old options are still there and new ones... everyone's happy!

[corkey sweet]

the suicide mission was 10x better. it has everything i wanted in a final mission. great action and felt urgent (like a suicide mission should).

priority earth was just boring as anything. had no urgency or excitement. it was just there

[Reorte]

Alex Arterius wrote...

Yeah! I don't see how adding in a option to allow us to win is ruining anyones vision.. it's just more variety... the old options are still there and new ones... everyone's happy!

Because it's too butterflies and rainbows and doesn't fit in the with artistic vision of the series which never had anything at all to do with triumphing against all odds. "Bittersweet" means "everyone's dead" because that includes the enemy.

[corkey sweet]

i would have been fine with bittersweet. unfortunately, it was just bitter

[Kanaris]

Actually the Theme most seem to pick up from ME is triumphing against all odds ME you triumphed against Saren and Sovereign when everyone else thought it was impossible in ME2 you ran through a mission that is labeled a suicide mission and triumphed over the Collectors again doing what others thought impossible and in ME3 you get short changed and told sorry you can't win no matter what sorry live with it it's "Creative Integrity" so we won't change it even it you **** your brains out.

See signature for my feelings on "Creative Integrity"

Modifié par Kanaris, 06 mai 2012 - 10:09 .

[JyrikGauldy]

Thats like comparing facebook to myspace

[Grimwick]

Bocks wrote...

But it doesn't end there. You have to make decisions whilst inside the base that can determine who lives and dies. Their lives depend on you and how good of a commander you are. The final decision is pretty much just a Red/Blue ending picker, but it doesn't matter. What matters at the time is that you accomplished the mission and you felt good doing it because EVERYTHING YOU DID IN MASS EFFECT 2 AFFECTED IT.

And I tell you, snuggling with your LI after you accomplish that is one of the most satisfying moments in gaming.

This is just... it's just...

Your words are beautiful in their truth. 

[Alex Arterius]

Kanaris wrote...

Actually the Theme most seem to pick up from ME is triumphing against all odds ME you triumphed against Saren and Sovereign when everyone else thought it was impossible in ME2 you ran through a mission that is labeled a suicide mission and triumphed over the Collectors in ME3 you get short changed and told sorry you can't win no matter what sorry live with it it's "Creative Integrity" so we won't change it even it you **** your brains out.

See signature for my feelings on "Creative Integrity"

My major beef with the ending of ME3 is the sudden change in the main theme from standing together united and surviving against the odds to synthetics vs oragnics?

I mean seriously how random. You spend 3 games uniting the galaxy and creating peace between civilisations and races and they shift the focus to synthetics vs organics at the very last moment.. what's the point?? O.o can't think of a single logical reason.

[Kanaris]

Alex Arterius wrote...

Kanaris wrote...

Actually the Theme most seem to pick up from ME is triumphing against all odds ME you triumphed against Saren and Sovereign when everyone else thought it was impossible in ME2 you ran through a mission that is labeled a suicide mission and triumphed over the Collectors in ME3 you get short changed and told sorry you can't win no matter what sorry live with it it's "Creative Integrity" so we won't change it even it you **** your brains out.

See signature for my feelings on "Creative Integrity"

My major beef with the ending of ME3 is the sudden change in the main theme from standing together united and surviving against the odds to synthetics vs oragnics?

I mean seriously how random. You spend 3 games uniting the galaxy and creating peace between civilisations and races and they shift the focus to synthetics vs organics at the very last moment.. what's the point?? O.o can't think of a single logical reason.

Me either expecially when you prove in the game that Synthetis and Organics can  coexist

**** forget the geth and Quarians look at JOKER AND EDI!!!!

Modifié par Kanaris, 06 mai 2012 - 10:16 .